Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Phil Deakins]

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kiramanell wrote:

And now on to some reality. There are ppl who use SL for something else than a 'glorified chatroom.' People like me who spent thousands of dollars, and a manifold of that in hours, on building up and decorating entire sims. To dismiss their loss the way you do is rather bizarre (though it matches your 'indifferent' sniley perfectly).

Heck, I spent the last 2 days alone on upgrading my wardrobe/avi. I can't even fathom how much more time went into *creating* all that stuff I bought. All of that will be gone, for ever, like teardrops in the rain. Anyone even remotely invested in SL (beyond the most superficial of experiences) will feel that loss.

---

Tell me something. Are you considering that the upgrading of your wardrobe/avi during the last two days will turn out to be a loss when SL eventually shuts down? If so, why did you spend that money? We've known for weeks that LL is making SL2, which will most likely cause SL to eventually close, so what possessed you to spend the money, knowing that what you spent the money on won't last?

Tell me something else please. You said you've spent thousands of dollars on building uip and decorating entire sims. What happened to those sims? How many do you have? Some details of your situation, and what you actually mean, would be very helpful for us to understand why you consider that it will all be such a loss

[kiramanell]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Tell me something. Are you considering that the upgrading of your wardrobe/avi during the last two days will turn out to be a loss when SL eventually shuts down? If so, why did you spend that money? We've known for weeks that LL is making SL2, which will most likely cause SL to eventually close, so what possessed you to spend the money, knowing that what you spent the money on won't last?

Tell me something else please. You said you've spent thousands of dollars on building uip and decorating entire sims. What happened to those sims? How many do you have? Some details of your situation, and what you actually mean, would be very helpful for us to understand why you consider that it will all be such a loss

---

I spent the recent money on my wardrobe/avi, simply because I wanted to look better. And because suddenly not spending would result in me accelerating the very downfall of SL I seek to avoid, Besides, I could close everything down now, on my end, and then find out SL is still going on for another 5 years; and then the joke would be on me.

As for rmy sims, I had a full region and a homestead once. Now I just have the homestead, as I felt the cost of a full sim was just too much. As for my loss, I have certainy spent several thousands of bucks on homes, furniture, clothes, and what not (I have an expensive taste). It's not the loss of money I bemoan, though (that just mildly stings, as it were). Rather it's the sense of loss I feel about losing all my work, and see all dedication I put into my numerous deco projects go to waste. Many of my homes I considered small pieces of art, by the time I was done with them. And with no way to preserve them any more, yeah, you bet I feel sad about it.

Basically, my sim was like a giant dollhouse to me.

[Phil Deakins]

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kiramanell wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Tell me something. Are you considering that the upgrading of your wardrobe/avi during the last two days will turn out to be a loss when SL eventually shuts down? If so, why did you spend that money? We've known for weeks that LL is making SL2, which will most likely cause SL to eventually close, so what possessed you to spend the money, knowing that what you spent the money on won't last?

Tell me something else please. You said you've spent thousands of dollars on building uip and decorating entire sims. What happened to those sims? How many do you have? Some details of your situation, and what you actually mean, would be very helpful for us to understand why you consider that it will all be such a loss

---

I spent the recent money on my wardrobe/avi, simply because I wanted to look better. And because suddenly not spending would result in me accelerating the very downfall of SL I seek to avoid, Besides, I could close everything down now, on my end, and then find out SL is still going on for another 5 years; and then the joke would be on me.

As for rmy sims, I had a full region and a homestead once. Now I just have the homestead, as I felt the cost of a full sim was just too much. As for my loss, I have certainy spent several thousands of bucks on homes, furniture, clothes, and what not (I have an expensive taste). It's not the loss of money I bemoan, though (that just mildly stings, as it were). Rather it's the sense of loss I feel about losing all my work, and see all dedication I put into my numerous deco projects go to waste. Many of my homes I considered small pieces of art, by the time I was done with them. And with no way to preserve them any more, yeah, you bet I feel sad about it.

Basically, my sim was like a giant dollhouse to me.

---

Then you chose to spend, knowing that the lifespan of what you bought would be limited, so there's no cause for complaint there.

The full sim was dealt with by you, to you satisfaction, before SL2 was announced, so there'll be no financial loss there.

You still have years of use, at least, left in the homestead sim and its contents and, since you can't have a homestead without also having a full sim, you must be renting it. So no financial loss there either, because you get 100% use of the rent every month.

I do appreciate that, when the time comes, some years from now, many or most people will feel a sense of loss at leaving their stuff behind. They may even feel a sense of financial loss, even though that would be unrealistic, because there won't be any.

Time spent doing things is different than money, of course, and you've spent a lot of time doing your thing with the sims. But that's been your hobby, and not even time spent building a business up, or anything like that. And you've enjoyed doing it as a hobby. Again, I can understand a sense of lost time, but it isn't realistic. Time spent doing a hobby is never lost time, even when the hobby ends. In this case, the hobby need not really end because the next one will be there for you to build an even better 'dolls house'.

[kiramanell]

[i'm (pretty) in pink]

 

"Then you chose to spend, knowing that the lifespan of what you bought would be limited, so there's no cause for complaint there."

And no one is complaining. Just people expressing their sense of loss, is what you're not getting.

"You still have years of use, at least, left in the homestead sim and its contents and, since you can't have a homestead without also having a full sim, you must be renting it. So no financial loss there either, because you get 100% use of the rent every month."

It just occured to me that you're being defensive about this, like a business man being accused of unfair practises. Yet, for some reason, I can't seem to impart on you that people can simply experience a loss over what they have built up, period (sans any judgement towards LL). And that there is thus no reason for you to defend LL (as if they were being attacked).

"Time spent doing things is different than money, of course, and you've spent a lot of time doing your thing with the sims. But that's been your hobby, and not even time spent building a business up, or anything like that. And you've enjoyed doing it as a hobby. Again, I can understand a sense of lost time, but it isn't realistic. Time spent doing a hobby is never lost time, even when the hobby ends."

Imagine you were an artist in RL, and you spent several years making beautiful paintings (--insert gratuitous 'SL is not RL!' comment here--). Then suddenly someone comes along, taking it all away, adding a snarky remark that it's unreasonable for you to feel the loss, cuz you got your time worth enjoying doing the painting. Yeah, no. Or tells you that you only rented your studio, so no loss there either. See, that is how you reason. And you seem to be so obtuse about understanding people's sense of loss, that I think you're either doing it on purpose, or that you simply cannot tear yourself away from the business perspective of having to be defensive about what you continually perceive to be 'complaints' towards SL. Assuming the latter, your entire 'defense' is basically just a giant strawman.

At any rate, I think I have sufficiently explained what manner of 'creative' loss people can experience. I guess you either get it, or you don't.

[Phil Deakins]

Which part of "I do appreciate that, when the time comes, some years from now, many or most people will feel a sense of loss at leaving their stuff behind." didn't you understand?

I'm not being defensive. I'm being realistic.

An artist in SL? There are artists that upload their work into SL but I don't know of any artists who do their art IN SL. Those who upload will be able to upload again, of course. No sense of loss for them.

If someone tells you that you only rented something, and you rent that something, then you rented it. When each rent payment runs out, it's gone forever. No loss of it will ever be siffered in the future.

Hiow about you try to get some realism into your thinking. Whatever you have now, you still have use of for more years to come. What's the problem? If you don't want to feel a financial loss when the curtain drops, stop spending now (except for rent), and then there won't be any. Problem solved. Most of what you have, you'll have stopped using years from now when the curtain drops anyway, so you won't feel a loss because of it.

You started this by saying "Let's get realistic." and you went on to say that you'd put thousands of dollars into SL doing sims - in a complaining way. It turned out you only have a homestead sim and you rent it. All you've ever done with it is put stuff in it. The full sim that you had, and put a lot of effort into according to you, you disposed of, so you were satisfied with how that ended up. Your "sims" was a bit of an exagertation, wasn't it. You do need to get realistic yourself, and realise that the end of SL is years away, and that the money you spent was to enjoy your hobby, which you did. Realism is so much better, don't you think?

 

 

[Parhelion Palou]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

An artist in SL? There are artists that upload their work into SL but I don't know of any artists who do their art IN SL. Those who upload will be able to upload again, of course. No sense of loss for them.

---

How about AM Radio, Bryn Oh, and others I won't name here since it's probably against the rules? There are artists in SL who create art that can't exist in real life. Some of it can be reproduced elsewhere, if the artists are still around and wish to do so. Much of it will be lost. When SL goes, AM Radio's last remaining work, "The Far Away", will go too.

 

[Phil Deakins]

So from starting out saying, in a complaining manner, that you'd put thousands of dollars and even more thousands of hours of time into SL, you're now down to the artists. It's good to see that you have become realistic regarding the money and time: realistic being what you suggested others become.

So about the artists. As I said, those who create their artwork outside and upload it, can upload it again. Their artwork will still exist, so no problem there. Those who create their artwork inside SL (I don't know any such artwork) still have years to display or sell it. They may even be thinking that SL2 will enable them to create better works of art, and be actually looking forward to it. Either way, you're not one, so it doesn't affect you.

There. I think we've covered everything you brought up now. The money you spent was to enjoy your hobby at the time you spent it. The time you spent was time spent enjoying your hobby. As for the artwork, you're not an artist, so it doesn't affect you. Everything is good.

[kiramanell]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

So from starting out saying, in a complaining manner, that you'd put thousands of dollars and even more thousands of hours of time into SL, you're now down to the artists. It's good to see that you have become realistic regarding the money and time: realistic being what you suggested others become.

So about the artists. As I said, those who create their artwork outside and upload it, can upload it again. Their artwork will still exist, so no problem there. Those who create their artwork inside SL (I don't know any such artwork) still have years to display or sell it. They may even be thinking that SL2 will enable them to create better works of art, and be actually looking forward to it. Either way, you're not one, so it doesn't affect you.

There. I think we've covered everything you brought up now. The money you spent was to enjoy your hobby at the time you spent it. The time you spent was time spent enjoying your hobby. As for the artwork, you're not an artist, so it doesn't affect you. Everything is good.

---

Like I said, I feel I have sufficiently made my position clear. At this point, I think you're just trolling, so there's no point in continuing with you.

[Phil Deakins]

As you wish.

Before you go though, look up the word 'troll'. It doesn't mean someone who simply disagrees with you, although some people like to think that it does.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

You need to get out more

It was figured out that I am surely sinking less time into SL than you, and in addition to that I am an avid cycler who rarely uses a car, so I think it is safe to say I get more fresh air and sunshine than you.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

And also stop pushing your limits and restrictions on others.

Ok, let's talk about restrictions - how about a tremendous one:

True love can only grow on a basis of - mutual - respect. Without that, it may be mere lust or convenience or a crutch for a weak ego, but not love, if that word shall make any sense. So it is you who is limitting himself enormously by making your wife, the person you are supposed to love, wear a sign of submission, since that way true love you will never know.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

So, anyone that participates in BD/sm has a fragile ego that can only survive by suppressing others?.

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At least any "man" who needs to push on others that he made his wife walk around with a slave collar. If you are in desperate need to do that, please be so kind to use the "Adult" forum from now on, because that 's the forum I and certainly a lot of others learned to avoid.

[Thomas Galbreus]

Faye Feldragonne wrote:

I don't think sex is a problem in SL. I never saw it until I looked for it.

That was not the point. The sex part and resulting reputation of SL has an impact on people (who consider) using SL even if they succeed in avoiding the sexual content.

 

I don't even have a problem with explicit pornographic content as such - as long as it is not offered within a product I would like to use for something else, and as long as it is not an assault on human dignity, which I find especially disturbing if it is outright misogynic, which most porn clearly is.

Offered a choice, I don't want to be associated with a product that is permissive with that. So, again, if a new virtual world starts without porn, I will prefer that over SL(1).

 

Faye Feldragonne wrote:

I missed that the thread changed to porno debate

If you want the whole picture, you may start reading here.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Rayzer Haggwood wrote:

I'm also sort of worried that I'll need to use more outside programs to develope items for SL2 and that could be a huge learning curve.

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Not only that. I am not an industrious builder myself, but I empathize with a blogger who compared prim building vs. working in an outside program like blender: With the latter, you sit alone in front of your computer. Inworld, there is at least the chance of doing it together with someone, or getting feedback on your work by poeple passing by in the sandbox.

 

I stopped playing single-player games in favour of MMOGs because I had enough of spending time alone in front of the screen, not being able to share the experience because no one else I know is into games (of the sort that I like). I think it is similar with virtual online worlds - they combine the appeal of a 3D environment with the chance of finding other human souls in there who share your interest.

 

So if it has to be mesh building, perhaps inworld mesh building tools would be a good idea, even if they can't be as advanced as programs that don't do anything else.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

You need to get out more

It was figured out that I am surely sinking less time into SL than you, and in addition to that I am an avid cycler who rarely uses a car, so I think it is safe to say I get more fresh air and sunshine than you.

---

 Seeing as you don't know me at all, you have no idea how much time I spend in SL. Not sure who "figured that out" as there is no way to tell how long someone spends online actually at their PC. Unless you have cameras  hidden in my home.. I am an avid hiker with my wife and kids..What is your point? You make assumption after assumption about someone you don't know and only show your ignorance with each post.

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

---

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

And also stop pushing your limits and restrictions on others.

Ok, let's talk about restrictions - how about a tremendous one:

True love can only grow on a basis of - mutual - respect. Without that, it may be mere lust or convenience or a crutch for a weak ego, but not love, if that word shall make any sense. So it is you who is limitting himself enormously by making your wife, the person you are supposed to love, wear a sign of submission, since that way true love you will never know.

---

 

You obviously know nothing about the inner working of a good BD/sm relationship. It is all about mutual trust and respect. We do nothing that the other isn't 100% comfortable with. I don't "make" her do anything. Why do you assume that a BD/SM relationship has no respect? is your only knowledge of the subject Fifty Shade of Grey? Which is a piss poor attempt at a novel and 100% inaccurate as to what BD/SM should be, there is nothing safe, sane or consensual about what he does to her. No one in the BD/SM community will promote that book.

Stop makeing assumptions about my life.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

So, anyone that participates in BD/sm has a fragile ego that can only survive by suppressing others?.

---

At least any "man" who needs to push on others that he made his wife walk around with a slave collar. If you are in desperate need to do that, please be so kind to

use the "Adult" forum from now on

, because that 's the forum I and certainly a lot of others learned to avoid.

---

I would like to point out that you were the one that started this whole "Adult" discussion. 

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 Seeing as you don't know me at all, you have no idea how much time I spend in SL. Not sure who "figured that out"

...

Stop makeing assumptions about my life.

You started to get personal by accusing my account being a bot becasue of my blank SL profile, which I explained as the result of me being only a sporadic SL user. So, again, thanks for helping to figure that out.

 

You then went on by supposing I would "need to get out more". Not an assumption about my life? What goes around, comes around.

Slavery is against human dignity even if the slave agrees to sacrifice it. I once more ask you to be so kind to restrict your propaganda in favour of enslaving women to the "Adult" forum.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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I would like to point out that you were the one that started this whole "Adult" discussion. 

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No, it was this post. But why should it matter who started it? You think it is an illegitimate discussion?

And my advice to use the "Adult" forum was for propagating slavery, not for the discussion if SL2 should have porn content.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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I would like to point out that you were the one that started this whole "Adult" discussion. 

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No, it was

this post

. But why should it matter who started it? You think it is an illegitimate discussion?

And my advice to use the "Adult" forum was for propagating slavery, not for the discussion if SL2 should have porn content.

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I don't think it is an illegitimate discussion, you apparently have an issue with anything adult..

So it's propagating slavery if it's roleplay? Interesting. You apparently read what you want to read and ignore anything else. BD/sm is mutual agreement.

So, discussing porn in SL isn't an adult discussion? oooookay.. I have better things to do with my day than argue with a prude.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 Seeing as you don't know me at all, you have no idea how much time I spend in SL. Not sure who "figured that out"

...

Stop makeing assumptions about my life.

You started to get personal by accusing my account being a bot becasue of my blank SL profile, which I explained as the result of me being only a sporadic SL user. So, again, thanks for helping to figure that out.

I didn't call you a bot, i said "

I would guess you are a either a bot or an alt.

" and you confirmed  this was an alt account..

You keep saying how you sporadically use SL.. Why do you care who does what then?

 

You then went on by supposing I would "need to get out more". Not an assumption about my life? What goes around, comes around.

If you think BD/sm is all about putting down and forcing someone to do things against their will, then you do need to broaden your horizons and open your mind a bit, do a little research before spouting off about what you don't understand.

Slavery is against human dignity even if the slave agrees to sacrifice it. I once more ask you to be so kind to restrict your propaganda in favour of enslaving women to the "Adult" forum.

Too bad we are talking about roleplay slavery here.. Who are you to tell anyone what they can and can not do with their lives? Talk about presumptuous.

---

 

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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 you apparently have an issue with anything adult..

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I ayctually have a problem with calling slavery and mostly misogynic porn "adult", that's why I always use quotation marks, because I don't think it is a sign of maturity to be into these things. It should be called what it is, "Violence, porn, humiliation and slavery", not "adult". German has the expression "jugendgefährdend", which translates as "liable to corrupt the young", which would also be appropriate.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

 argue with a prude.

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You seem to have missed what I wrote here:

 

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

 

I don't even have a problem with explicit pornographic content as such - as long as it is not offered within a product I would like to use for something else, and as long as it is not an assault on human dignity, which I find especially disturbing if it is outright misogynic, which most porn clearly is.

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[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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You keep saying how you sporadically use SL.. Why do you care who does what then?

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It might be less sporadic if I wouldn't have to think twice before telling someone I use SL because people associate it with the stuff you are into.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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If you think BD/sm is all about putting down and forcing someone to do things against their will

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How often do I have to repeat that I dismiss slavery no matter if the slave agrees? And you think by "getting out more" I will run into a lot of wifes like yours that walk around with a slave collar? Seems you need to get out more, and perhaps not restrict yourself to the SM scene.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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You keep saying how you sporadically use SL.. Why do you care who does what then?

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It might be less sporadic if I wouldn't have to think twice before telling someone I use SL because people associate it with the stuff you are into.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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If you think BD/sm is all about putting down and forcing someone to do things against their will

---

How often do I have to repeat that I dismiss slavery no matter if the slave agrees? And you think by "getting out more" I will run into a lot of wifes like yours that walk around with a slave collar? Seems you need to get out more, and perhaps not restrict yourself to the SM scene.

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Well, gee. You could try educating them, or are they just sheep like yourself that follow what you are blindly told something is?

Again and again I will say, do some research before spouting off on a subject you know nothing about.

Firstly i said "silver collar" not slave collar. You decided it was a slave collar.

Secondly, you would never know it was anything other than a choker necklace unless you were told.

Thirdly, you seem to do an awful lot of judging on a subject you do not understand. Perhaps you should go for a bike ride and clear your head. Again, who are you to decide what is right and what is wrong between two consenting adults?

Stop picking segments of my replies. I said "If you think BD/sm is all about putting down and forcing someone to do things against their will, then you do need to broaden your horizons and open your mind a bit, do a little research before spouting off about what you don't understand." That is what is mean't by "getting out more." Not just wandering the countryside on your bicycle. Expand your mind.

[kiramanell]

Thomas Galbreus wrote

I don't even have a problem with explicit pornographic content as such - as long as it is not offered within a product I would like to use for something else, and as long as it is not an assault on human dignity, which I find especially disturbing if it is outright misogynic, which most porn clearly is.

In other words, you *do* have a problem with pornographic content.

One person's submissiveness may look misogynistic to you, but that is just your own way of looking at it.

Offered a choice, I don't want to be associated with a product that is permissive with that. So, again, if a new virtual world starts without porn, I will prefer that over SL(1).

Yet a choice is precisely what you want to see taken away from others. Yes, the new Disney-feel might make the next SL more palatable for you, but sex simply sells, big time.

This virtual world, and any to come, I'll reckon, by and large, simply mirror the real world. So, ultimately, it would appear it's actually the real world you're having have issues with. And that is fine. But let's not shape the Brave New World after your, sorry to say, rather narrow notions of how ppl are allowed to have sex -- if at all.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

So, discussing porn in SL isn't an adult discussion?

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No, it is a meta discussion that does not need to get pornographic.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

So, discussing porn in SL isn't an adult discussion?

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No, it is a

meta discussion

that does not need to get pornographic.

---

So, discussing porn in SL doesn't have to get pornographic... Please show one instance where this discussion got pornographic. Just one.