render me Impressed! the latest SL viewer is quite fast and I'm excited

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

Oh, huh. I actually use Firestorm 99% of the time, so don't keep up with updates on the LL viewer, though I did try this latest one yesterday. It does load scenes very quickly but on my computer, the textures don't stay rezzed and instead flip in and out of focus, which makes it a crappy viewer for taking photos. So it's back to laggy FS for me for now. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

With the Viewer Code being open source if ghosting was hapenning I'd think that by now someone would have said something.

Don't know, but I find it unlikely.

---

If it was done like what occured in MUDs, no code would be needed in the viewer. Basically it means person A, an admin; is fed everything gets sent to or from the connection to person B.

Everything at some point goes up to a server, which then decides where to send what out to whom.

 

[ObviousAltIsObvious]

the flickr and twitter support are a followup to SL Share. it is not a part of Project Shining. the new Sunshine work is the second viewer update that was promised last year, when the feature was first rolled out.

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Sylvia Tamalyn wrote:

Oh, huh. I actually use Firestorm 99% of the time, so don't keep up with updates on the LL viewer, though I did try this latest one yesterday. It does load scenes very quickly but on my computer, the textures don't stay rezzed and instead flip in and out of focus, which makes it a crappy viewer for taking photos. So it's back to laggy FS for me for now. 

---

That likely means you have HTTP on, but your texturefetchconcurrency value is too low or too high. The default used to be 0 (might still be). 8 or 16 is ideal.

 http://catnapkitty.wordpress.com/2013/10/17/meshmaxconcurrentrequests-texturefetchconcurrency-http-textures-texture-thrashing-and-why-isnt-my-stuff-rezzing-yet/

You don't see this problem in Firestorm because this is one thing Firestorm does right: use better defaults for those debug settings. FS's team chooses it defaults I suppose, based on actually using SL, rather than theorizing about it...

The official viewer after all, still uses rendervolumelod of 1.25 or something, and ALL of SL has more or less known to set that to 4 since... 2006 or 07 or whenever sculpty first launched (and it needs to be 4 for mesh also...).

 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

Oh thanks, I will try tweaking that setting! I'd actually like to be able to use the LL viewer more, though until the ability to derender ugly crap is included, I can't really convince myself to use it fulltime. It might make a nice alternative for really laggy occasions, though, if your fix for the fuzzy textures works.  :matte-motes-smile:

[Perrie Juran]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Yes, the CHUI does leave something to be desired. LL seems to have an unswerving ability to move some things is the wrong direction while moving others is the right one. It's all very well some randon Linden popping in to say "glad you like it", or words that effect, but it would much better if some random Linden popped in to see what people actually do want. Taking the occsional bow isn't very impressive. But that won't happen - not with Linden Lab.

---

I did my

ranting about CHUI

way back when it was in Beta.  So I really won't start again.

Designed by people who appeared to not have a Second Life. 

I found Ebbe's Statement in his

Keynote Address

very interesting.

"So we do want to be more transparent, we do definitely want to participate with you so that we can get your feedback and learn from you, and correct things based on what we hear from you. but sometimes, we actually learn more from watching what you do as opposed to listening to what you say."

I think it would be a real eye opener to them if they actually sat and watched over our shoulders as we used the Viewer and saw us struggling with UI element designs that make no sense.

/rant off

---

But don't they all make 'good' sounding noises when they first arrive? They all sound promising, but none delivers. At least this one said that they'd listen but don't expect them to deliver, so I suppose, as a statement, it's cut above the others.

I thought that, by "watched over our shoulders", you meant behind us as we sit at the keyboard, which is different to what Pussycat thought you meant. If they were over our shoulders while we sat at the keyboard, they'd also get to hear what we thought about it as the CHUI does its thing to us

---

I did mean literally sit behind us as we sat at the keyboard.

Then they'd hear everytime we muttered "WTF" and everytime we yelled "YAYYYYYYYYYY."

I doubt very much if they can see my every mouse movement when I'm going through menus trying to get from point A to point B.  Which is kind of what I thought PussyCat meant by "ghosting."

[Phil Deakins]

No, they wouldn't be able to see that because it's all done in the viewer and couldn't be sent to anyone else, unless the viewer had code to do it which, as you pointed out, is highly unlikely.

[ObviousAltIsObvious]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

I did mean literally sit behind us as we sat at the keyboard.

Then they'd hear everytime we muttered "WTF" and everytime we yelled "YAYYYYYYYYYY."

I doubt very much if they can see my every mouse movement when I'm going through menus trying to get from point A to point B.  Which is kind of what I thought PussyCat meant by "ghosting."

---

they do get volunteers to try the software while they watch, the followup impressions are gathered. this is not clandestine monitoring, the test subjects are in on it.

[Phil Deakins]

Then they don't get typical users to do the tests. If they do, then they must ignore any criticisms, thinking that they (LL) know best, of course. It's more likely that the people they get for the tests just want to tell them mostly what they think LL wants to hear. I wonder who they got to test drive the V2 - probably griefers LOL

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

I doubt very much if they can see my every mouse movement when I'm going through menus trying to get from point A to point B.  Which is kind of what I thought PussyCat meant by "ghosting."

---

Yeah I just meant capturing all the data going into and out of server - allowing them to see SL as if they were you. Which would be a serious privacy issue... but it used to exist in these platform - back before logs were as good as they are.

Its actually kind of junk data after all: for a dev, there's low benefit in watching a single user's experience. Better to be able to see a big data spread of some 1000 users all slamming up against a similar set of issues.

 

BUT...

Google and Facebook actually CAN track your every mouse movement as long as its inside the browser window (and maybe even out if the browser has focus - less sure here)... so they know how long your mouse hovered over the cleavage selfie of that one lady... or the lolcat... or whatever... You don't have to click on a single thing for them to do this...

 

[Phil Deakins]

Facebook certainly can't do that with me because I've never even been there, but, if Google can do it, it obviously requires a Google program running in the computer (their toolbar, for instance), and they would only do that if you accepted it. Maybe it's part of their own browser, in which case you did accept it.

[ObviousAltIsObvious]

in the past, they had a way of ignoring what they learned.

here is a paper from one occasion, where the study was farmed out, to evaluate an old version of the welcome islands. usually these evaluations are done privately. numerous problems were identified, but LL elected to throw volunteers at the problems in favor of fixes.

http://www.asis.org/asist2011/posters/367_FINAL_SUBMISSION.doc

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

phaedra Exonar wrote:

I took time to try it out and it seems to run smoothly and had good frame rate,  I'm not expecting LL to add RLV, but what keeps me from using the LL viewer for casual non work use is the

the camera controls are huge, get in the way,  and can't be resized, I'm not the only one who has comment on that in the forums.  May be I just need to learn to use the short cuts

It's good to see the viewer getting better, and even better to see Lindens taking time to respond here!

---

That used to be a HUGE complaint of mine, and I posted here many times about it. They are really bad compared to what they used to be. So eventually I got used to using keypresses instead, and that works fine.

I've read that you are going back to keypresses. It's a good move because LL seems to be very reluctant to get the camera controls back to something reasonable.

---

For me the big problem now is CHUI. 

I've tried to get used to it.  I really have.  It's turned simply chatting into a complicated clusterf*ck for me.

Why LL has absolutely refused to make the Camera Control resizeable is absoluely beyond me....this one thing has been brought up so many times you'd think they'd get the message that people really want it.

In "Your World, Your Imagination," anything that gets between you and your view of the World is NOT a good thing.

Which now makes me think of a feature I'd love to see added to Firestorm's "Quick Preferences."  The abilty to change graphics level withought having to open the 'preferences' window.  That would be really nice.

---

So I assume you'd think it would be ridiculous to interact with objects through a giant round object that pops up in the center of your screen and makes you drill through multiple menus despite having unused slots at most levels, while it goes "bink, bonk, bloop" at you all the while?

 

I didn't like CHUI when it came out but I gradually tamed it and when I later found myself using Catznip to diagnose a performance issue I said to a friend, "You know? I miss CHUI."

When it comes to interfaces people like things they're used to, especially if it's an application they use all the time. I'm sure the interface testing at the time of Viewer 2 was done with people with no previous experience in SL because they were trying to revise an interface that non-SL users complained about as being unintuitive. They knew that long-time SL users would prefer what they're used to.

I really don't care what interface people use or prefer, but whenever I hear old SL residents talking about how "wonderfully intuitive" the Viewer 1 interface was/is I just roll my eyes. I tried that interface when I was just a few weeks into SL after beginning with Viewer 2 and I kicked it to the curb pretty quickly for my personal use.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Facebook certainly can't do that with me because I've never even been there, but, if Google can do it, it obviously requires a Google program running in the computer (their toolbar, for instance), and they would only do that if you accepted it. Maybe it's part of their own browser, in which case you did accept it.

---

There's a little script on almost every website on the net now for google analytics:

script type="text/javascript" async="" src="http:// www . google-analytics . com/ga. js"

(I've intentionally put spaces into that to keep the forum from converting it to a link, even though its the most common script on the internet and we're all running copies of it hundreds of times a day.)

- That's the first of a whole series of google scripts.

The contents of these scripts are where google runs all kinds of analysis on page activity.

This page itself has a google iframe hidden at the end of the code. So by viewing my reply, you are running a host of external programs.

mouse tracking is just part of the package.

 

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

ObviousAltIsObvious wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

I did mean literally sit behind us as we sat at the keyboard.

Then they'd hear everytime we muttered "WTF" and everytime we yelled "YAYYYYYYYYYY."

I doubt very much if they can see my every mouse movement when I'm going through menus trying to get from point A to point B.  Which is kind of what I thought PussyCat meant by "ghosting."

---

they do get volunteers to try the software while they watch, the followup impressions are gathered. this is not clandestine monitoring, the test subjects are in on it.

---

I'm going to echo what Phil said, they can't be typical users.

Or they really are only seeing what they want to see.

While I recognise not everyone uses SL to socialize, it is still a very Social Platform and isn't that the primary way it's being advertised, "Meet that special someone?"

So how can they miss the importance of the Chat Bar?  And that problem was there before CHUI.

When I first tried Viewer 3 after it came out that was the first thing that hit me.  The Chat Bar was hidden by default.  I had to go look for it.  That's backwards.  It should have been viewable by default.

Then we got to CHUI.  It took an eleventh hour out cry to get a chat bar and we almost had to argue for it!

The basics of  Chat should be upfront and obvious.

The chat bar for local and then the chat window showing which of my friends are online so I can communicate with them. 

Compare:

 

 

Seriously, why is "SEARCH" the default in CHUI and not "FRIENDS?"

In the old design, the things I need 99% of the time are right there up front and visible in ONE simple window.

And I dont think I am a unique user.

If they are watching people you can't convince me that they are either Typical users or that the Watchers are actually seeing or responding.

We talk about the difficult learning curve for the new user.  We don't need a "Basic Viewer."

What we need is people who understand the importance of the Basics designing the UI elements.

I talked about this with Torley when they introduced the Web Based profiles.  Things that used to take me ONE mouse click to do were buried behind THREE. 

This isn't rocket science.  These are basic simple things that shouldn't be ignored and dumped off on the TPV's to try and fix.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

phaedra Exonar wrote:

I took time to try it out and it seems to run smoothly and had good frame rate,  I'm not expecting LL to add RLV, but what keeps me from using the LL viewer for casual non work use is the

the camera controls are huge, get in the way,  and can't be resized, I'm not the only one who has comment on that in the forums.  May be I just need to learn to use the short cuts

It's good to see the viewer getting better, and even better to see Lindens taking time to respond here!

---

That used to be a HUGE complaint of mine, and I posted here many times about it. They are really bad compared to what they used to be. So eventually I got used to using keypresses instead, and that works fine.

I've read that you are going back to keypresses. It's a good move because LL seems to be very reluctant to get the camera controls back to something reasonable.

---

For me the big problem now is CHUI. 

I've tried to get used to it.  I really have.  It's turned simply chatting into a complicated clusterf*ck for me.

Why LL has absolutely refused to make the Camera Control resizeable is absoluely beyond me....this one thing has been brought up so many times you'd think they'd get the message that people really want it.

In "Your World, Your Imagination," anything that gets between you and your view of the World is NOT a good thing.

Which now makes me think of a feature I'd love to see added to Firestorm's "Quick Preferences."  The abilty to change graphics level withought having to open the 'preferences' window.  That would be really nice.

---

So I assume you'd think it would be ridiculous to interact with objects through a giant round object that pops up in the center of your screen and makes you drill through multiple menus despite having unused slots at most levels, while it goes "bink, bonk, bloop" at you all the while?

<snip>

---

No, I am not saying that at all.  I know it's impossible to avoid menu's, etc, etc. 

My point is that they should be as minimal as possible.

And yes, I've wondered about some of the empty slots in the pie menu too, though I don't know what the "bink, bonk, bloop" you are referring to is.

[ObviousAltIsObvious]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

 

I didn't like CHUI when it came out but I gradually tamed it and when I later found myself using Catznip to diagnose a performance issue I said to a friend, "You know? I miss CHUI."

---

yes, this interface was immature when it first hit release, but the design was sound and it has evolved nicely. the amount of permanently wasted space in other viewers' interfaces is glaring, once one has spent a small time learning how to work the CHUI controls.

 

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

ObviousAltIsObvious wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

 

I didn't like CHUI when it came out but I gradually tamed it and when I later found myself using Catznip to diagnose a performance issue I said to a friend, "You know? I miss CHUI."

---

yes, this interface was immature when it first hit release, but the design was sound and it has evolved nicely. the amount of permanently

wasted space

in other viewers' interfaces is glaring, once one has spent a small time learning how to work the CHUI controls.

 

 

---

/me points to my two screen shots above ^^^^^^

what wasted space?

 

eta, the above screen shots are not actual size, the one from firestorm is actually enlarged.

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

Which now makes me think of a feature I'd love to see added to Firestorm's "Quick Preferences."  The abilty to change graphics level withought having to open the 'preferences' window.  That would be really nice.

---

Ask and you shall receive.

Here's how to add that: On the Quick Preferences window, click the icon at the bottom that looks like a wrench, click the plus sign, in the drop down menu (where it says "Choose") add RenderQualityPerformance.  The type will be Slider, check the Interger box, set these as follows - Min: 0, Max: 6, Incr: 1, rename it to something like Graphics Level and there you have it.

Here's what it would look like...

Now just click the X to close the configuration window and go about your merry way.

 

I have mine configured to turn Advanced Lighting on and off so I can easily disable it on laggy sims.  Seems easier than changing graphics levels, especially since doing so changes everything back to the defaults for that chosen level.  Since I have some things set differently than the defaults, I like to keep them that way.

Hope this helps ...Dres

[Perrie Juran]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

Which now makes me think of a feature I'd love to see added to Firestorm's "Quick Preferences."  The abilty to change graphics level withought having to open the 'preferences' window.  That would be really nice.

---

Ask and you shall receive.

Here's how to add that: On the Quick Preferences window, click the icon at the bottom that looks like a wrench, click the plus sign, in the drop down menu (where it says "Choose") add

RenderQualityPerformance

.  The type will be

Slider

, check the

Interger

box, set these as follows - Min: 0, Max: 6, Incr: 1, rename it to something like Graphics Level and there you have it.

Here's what it would look like...

Now just click the X to close the configuration window and go about your merry way.

 

I have mine configured to turn Advanced Lighting on and off so I can easily disable it on laggy sims.  Seems easier than changing graphics levels, especially since doing so changes everything back to the defaults for that chosen level.  Since I have some things set differently than the defaults, I like to keep them that way.

Hope this helps ...Dres

---

AWESOME!   TYVM!

[Pierre Ceriano]

I must admit the last SL viewer is to my point of view the best in order to visit the metaverse. No better travel guide !

But I still can't manage the edition mode with it. I prefer other viewers for that.