Inworld Legal Panel on TOS - Details

[Toysoldier Thor]

The meeting with a legal panel to discuss the LL August TOS changes that hijacked our IP rights will be held at 10am SLT Today ( a few minutes from now).  The sim is already pretty much full but there is streaming of the EVENT as the conversation will be voice with text Q & A after.  The meeting is also being recorded for later listening.

 

Inworld Meeting location:  http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Angel%20Manor/161/214/29

Can't get on the sim then you can listen to the meeting at  http://www.aviewtv.com/live/

 

10-11:30 Panel Discussion in Voice. Please turn off your mics.

11:30 - 1pm Moderated Q&A.  IM your questions to Max Graf Q&A. Max will not open the queue until after the panel is finished. Items submitted before that will be deleted.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Good deal. Can't be there in-world but listening to the broadcast as we speak. Thanks much.

[Madeliefste Oh]

Thanks for organising this meeting. Very interesting!

So far I had the impression that the new TOS only is valid for content uploaded after the TOS change. But from the meeting I understand that they are claiming rights for all content, also our content uploaded before this new terms.

I´m really shocked. I would not have become a content creator in SL when the current TOS was valid at that time.

[Czari Zenovka]

Thank you for posting this info, Toy.   I will check out either the stream (if available later) or transcript of the meeting.  Very interested in what will be said.

[Toysoldier Thor]

he meeting Q & A is still going on after 2 hours but the information to Creators has been AMAZING!

It will be a must have listen for all creators once its posted.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

The video doesn't seem to be working.. Hopefully they will rebroadcast it later.

why is "live st ream" (without the space in the second word) a banned phrase?

[Toysoldier Thor]

Yes there will be pre-recordings - likely video and I am even doing audio which for this meeting is VERY valid as they are speaking through it all - even the Q & A.  They had a presentation up on stage but Agenda spoke well through what was on the slides

... Please Stand By

[Chic Aeon]

A bit over 2.5 hours in we are in Q and A. Watching the video will be good. Some parts excellent, some yawning (my point of view and others watching in RL with me only of course ).

The bottom line is that it is even worse that we expected.

Good news is there were a LOT of folks there that hadn't been paying attention and NOW ARE!!!!

 

 EDIT:  Just like the TOS, it is important that EACH PERSON listens to (or reads) the talk to come to their own conclusions over what was said. Not all of the panel were in agreement.

The other thing is to keep trying and get the word out. The more people know how the TOS has taken away their rights (and sometimes the ability to sell the goods in other place and in RL the better off we will be as a group.

 

The most disturbing thing said -- that I will need to revisit to clear up in my mind -- is that the TOS apparently claims FAR REACHING "ownership" (lots of talk about what that means too) that could compromise items (even new  ones) on other platforms.  (Insert VERY BAD WORD HERE).

 

 

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Stream is still working fine here. Once in a while it needs pausing and un-pausing. Will be going over the transcript later with a fine tooth comb.

You're right, some great information there. Suprised it's going on for so long.

Short version: The TOS is one of the worst around, users would probably win in court, except for the arbitration clause LL relies on to keep it out of court. Anything that does go to court gets settled to avoid setting a negative precedent.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

we would also need a writen transcription, that the international communications team would translate in several language.

Im listening since the start, but really im having a hard time understanding if you add to that the quality of the sound. :smileysad:

These are informations everyone should get, even if english is not our native language.

[Toysoldier Thor]

OK folks...

I am sure there will be great video/audio versions of the meeting as well as the slideshows and transcripts as Trinity has stated, but....

here is my posting of the entire 3 hour meeting - in AUDIO CAPTURE.

 

Hope you enjoy as the meeting provided AMAZING CONTENT and INFORMATION !!

 

http://www.toysoldierthor.com/2/post/2013/10/recap-audio-inworld-legal-panel-talk-on-ll-tos.html

 

[Cadence Ravenhurst]

On behalf of the UCCSL (United Content Creators of SL), I'd like to thank all of those who participated in the Legal Panel Discussion brought to you by the SL Bar Association and hosted by UCCSL and The Rose Theatre. The event was informative-answering many of our questions and raising new ones I'm sure.  The event will be made available as an MP4 as well as a written transcript in the next few days.  The transcript will be translated into several languages. All of this information will be made available through the forums, UCCSL, blogs and social media. 

Spread the word people. This world lets us be our true and purest selves. It is worth fighting for, and UCCSL is here for the fight.  

 

Kylie Sabra, Council Officer

UCCSL

"Truth. Our Most Valuable Tool"

[Tiffy Vella]

Thanks so much for recording this. I did manage to make it there in person, but will need a recap as it was the wee hours of the morning for me. My brain lagged up a few times, so I missed a few bits.

 

I did learn a new word though: "unconscionable".

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Thanks back at you and to the UCCSL and the panel.

I see they've buried the thread in events forum after the event is over, to which I say "heh".

[Ela Talaj]

Being an in-world activity apparently every participant has accepted the new ToS, otherwise they could not be in-world. What on earth has prevented y'all from clicking  "I do not accept" box and go elsewhere? There are other grids around. Surely no Linden enforcer stood over you with a pistol pressed to your head. There are hundreds if not thousands content creators who distribute their work for free with full permissions and most probably could not care less who owns it, they just want people to enjoy it and enjoy SL. I admit, I'm not one of them, I create for profit, however it has never occured to me that The Lab owes me a living. It does not. I owe The Lab for creating and maintaining a platform enabling me to earn a living.

I'm not aware of a single tangible thing created by lawyers except for an income stream to their own pockets. A lot of things however were destroyed by them via mounting costs of defense to the point of infeasibility of continuing to do business. Is this what y'all after? To destroy SL? I sincerely hope you miserably fail.

As for the leagues and such, I wish you a dismal failure too. I do it every time I think of how many millions jobs the unions have already shipped to Mexico, China and Bangladesh.

[sunshine Juneberry]

I missed the meeting so i don't know if Adhesion Contracts were discussed.

 

But i was thinking the TOS might be considered an Adhesion Contract and some point might be invalidated if scutinized in court.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract_contract_of_adhesion

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

sunshine Juneberry wrote:

I missed the meeting so i don't know if Adhesion Contracts were discussed.

 

But i was thinking the TOS might be considered an Adhesion Contract and some point might be invalidated if scutinized in court.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract_contract_of_adhesion

---

Sunshine... this topic of Adheasion Contracts was actually talked about in the Legal Panel Meeting.  It didnt bode well as an argument according to the panel.

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

Ela, you have longgggg been known to be one of LL's biggest flag waving champions.... to the point that some think you are a LL staffer in disguise.  As such, post what you need to post to the Creators, Artists, Merchants of SecondLife whos rights have been completely hi jacked by Linden Lab's draconian TOS.

Contrary to your... well lets say biased... opinions, what will kill SecondLife is bonehead moves like this latest TOS from Linden Lab. 

This latest creator disrespectful move from Rodvik not only has single-handedly slowed current content creation to the LL SL grid and inspired yet another major move ot SL creators to competing grids (or to abandoned creation all together) but it will also seriously damage LL's plan to attract any new form of creator or indie game developer to SL or its new baby Desura.

What Game Developer would sign on to LL's new gaming platform under these new LL draconian terms (except for you)?

So, you keep waving the LL flag as you have ALWAYS DONE.... don't be surprse at the level of support your opinions will get in a crowd that has had LL hi jack their content.

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

Thanks back at you and to the UCCSL and the panel.

I see they've buried the thread in events forum after the event is over, to which I say "heh".

---

Not a problem Dart, the LL Moderators might have been told by LL Management to try to hide the growing exposure and knowledge of LL's latest TOS - by hiding a past event into an obscure SL Forum, but the audio blog posting has already been viewed over 300 times in the last 6 hours.  As creators spread the blog as well as the new posting from the UCCSL out to the creator community, LL's lame attempts to hide their draconian TOS actions are pretty much a waste of effort.

Maybe Rodvik need to finally pull his head out of the sand and admit this this bonehead move on his part wont be going away... its becoming an out of control PR nightmare for LL that is damaging both SL as well as any future plans for his beloved Desura or what ever other secret plans he has brewing where he needs access to our content for free.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

I see they've buried the thread in events forum after the event is over, to which I say "heh".

---

I kindly asked the moderator if it could possible moved to general, because we want to discuss the outcome of this meeting. I'm glad to see it here now.

 

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Well, that's a nice surprise. Thanks for requesting it.

@Toy: True. Did you catch the one answer to the question of whether LL would do this if they were pondering X, Y or Z with the company. A short and sweet "yes".

It's still subjective, and yet it still points to a purpose beyond protectionism.

[Tiffy Vella]

I caught that bit, and noticed it was the shortest and most direct answer for the entire meeting. And I'd have to agree with it.

[Ela Talaj]

The flag I wave has 7 red stripes, 6 white stripes and 13 white stars in a circle over a blue field. It is commonly associated with such things as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, even though it was not yet around when either was written and adopted. Under this flag everyone is entitled to life and liberty. No one is entitled to happiness, just the pursuit of it.

No one is entitled to force one's way into a private club against members' will. No one is entitled to a "living wage" set by a bureaucrat hundreds miles away. No one is entitled to scream down opponents under the guise of being "offended" by their opinions. And definitely no one is entitled to dictate a private business what its terms of service should be. If one doesn't like it, one is entitled to walk away and pursue happiness elsewhere.

I wave very carefully because the flag is old and fragile. Some believe that the ideals it symbolizes are old too and should be replaced. Now and then such people may even prevail but their while is going to be short.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

Anything that does go to court gets settled to avoid setting a negative precedent.

 

---

But anything that goes to court and has to get settled is also a learning experience for LL, it shows the weaknesses in the TOS. Last case about ownership of vitual land and goods that was settled took them 170k. There must have come a commant to the legal department from ivory tower to make sure that these failures not occur anymore in the future.

 

[Bernard Blachere]

flag waving champions, biased opinion, bonehead .....

 

if a contra sound is welcomed with these words discussion is over, total lack of respect.