Farewell old viewers - 9 July

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Good analogy.  Is it correct to say, then, that the Firestorm viewer is a v3 viewer, but with the option of a v1 UI?

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From what I can gather, it's pretty close if you run it in Phoenix mode, but there will still be differences that you'd have to get use to... such as the set up of the menu items.  I've never run it in Phoenix mode because, by the time that came out, I was already use to the V3 UI.  Personally, I find it to be much better, more customizable and more intuitive than V1 UI ever was.  Of course, you do have to take the time to learn it and that can be rather frustrating... I'm glad I did that sooner rather than later.

Once you get your new computer set up, you should at least try it out in Phoenix mode... you might like it.  If you don't, you can always uninstall it and use something else.

...Dres

[TristanMercer]

I posted this before back on Page 2. Seems it was forgotten so I am posting it again.

Firestorm with the Phoenix UI. Just clikc the picture on the page it opens and you can full in a larger size.

 

Firestorm Phoenix UI

[Czari Zenovka]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

 

Once you get your new computer set up, you should at least try it out in Phoenix mode... you might like it.  If you don't, you can always uninstall it and use something else.

...Dres

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I absolutely plan on checking out Firestorm in Phoenix mode.  I love, love, love Phoenix and am also one who prefers the v1 UI.  One of those individual preferences things.   Since Singularity has been likened to Nicholaz, I want to give it a try as well as CoolVL since I have heard great things about it as well.

I've seen posts from SL residents who report using a number of different viewers based on their activity such as Firestorm for building and uploading products to the MP, one for hanging out in SL, and yet another if going to a sim with a lot of avatars, such as the various "fairs."  I'm excited to soon be able to try them all!

[Trinity Yazimoto]

And Czari, do not forget the best thing about Firestorm : its awesome support group... Well, you know that if you have any question you can im me, but if im not online, join this group and ask there.. Indeed there are a lot of people asking and only some moderators/helpers, so you'll need to be patient, but there are also tons of experimented users that help there too.

On top, there is a wiki that help a looooot.http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/. 

When i happen to have a problem that i cant fix by myself, i usually look in the wiki first... then, if i dont find there anything that helps me, i ask in the group.. sometimes, its hard, bec my question can be not seen at all in the middle of the numerous other ones, but if so, i give up for some hours and come back a lil later and ask again. 

In the rare moments  i have some spare time, i use to keep this group chat open and help in return when i have solutions for the questions asked. This is my way to say thanks to this awesome team.. For me this group is the best advantage of Firestorm among the numerous other ones.... 

What a so great things to have a room to talk, say, ask while we never have any interlocutor in LL.... remember when i had my pb with the wrong pics in my market place (i know you still have it btw), i tried a lot of things to have an interlocutor.... the only one who finally answered me was Dakota Linden, but just to tell me she wasnt the one who could fix and she refused to tell me any way to contact the right persons... This is really frustrating... and that's why i so much appreciate Phoenix/Firestorm team.

[Czari Zenovka]

Totally agree - I was always in the Phoenix group and then joined the Firestorm/Phoenix group (I think that was the name).  I think I had to drop it for another required group but definitely plan to rejoin it. (Ok, that was a really convoluted explanation...lol.)

Years ago I used to attend the in world meetings that Phoenix would hold if there were any major updates as well as classes they held to explain how to use the settings.

The Phoenix/Firestorm team really have their act together.

[TristanMercer]

Firestorm does hold classes today still. They are always free. A very wise choice for someone who wants to know about everything in the Firestorm viewer.

 

[WADE1 Jya]

 

I just think when they bring in new features like mesh or new materials/shaders it should be like WHAM drop it everywhere at once in one day... thats your new world. enjoy! slowly trickling things in is just annoying. and yes i think the viewer has way too many settings and the default ones are always terrible.

good default settings, that are optimized to properly display any new features, is highly important.... as most people will never change any settings.

they should try harder to make it one shared world, you know, a world that works the way reality works... in that we all see the scene the same way.

 

[Marlena Petrov]

I just have to post about TPV's. There are LOTS!  Catznip, Exodus, Nirans all have the V3 interface, for those of you who love the old V1 look there is Singularity or Cool Viewer. ALL are SSA enabled.  Give them a look, even download and try them out. I would recommend giving each viewer you have installed it's own cache file. I know that Niran and Kitty @ Catznip are recoding the CHUI..Niran has one out  now that has SSA, CHUI, and Materials Handling...he does mention that it's still being coded. Ive had no probs with what is essebtially an Alpha viewer. I use Catznip 97% of the time, and I'm in world ..a lot

[Perrie Juran]

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WADE1 Jya wrote:

 

they should try harder to make it one shared world, you know, a world that works the way reality works... in that we all see the scene the same way.

 

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Any good Lawyer can tell you that is not how the world and reality works.  Get three people witnessing the same exact incident and you will get three different story's.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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WADE1 Jya wrote:

 

they should try harder to make it one shared world, you know, a world that works the way reality works... in that we all see the scene the same way.

 

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Any good Lawyer can tell you that is not how the world and reality works.  Get three people witnessing the same exact incident and you will get three different story's.

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Or one person who is blind, another who is color blind, another who is near-sighted, yet another who is far-sighted...well, you get my point.  Even in RL no two people see exactly the same thing all the time.

[WADE1 Jya]

true true hehe :catvery-happy: somebody could be on hallucinogens or what have you :catlol:

but you get my point no?

there could be a lot more done to eliminate fragmentation.

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Oh just give up Susperia. The marketplace has voted and most prefer to use a TPV rather than the Lab's craptastic offerings. Why do you deride choice?

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 I never give up and quote where I deride choice. I'm really tired of you saying I'm not for choice when I've never said otherwise.

Yea, like the MP is the majority of SL users. Given the infographic on the LL blog; 1 million users visit a month whereas 400K are new. Even if half of the remaining 600K users were TPV users it is hardly most. Now if you actually had some accredited data for your argument, I just might listen.

Please don't pull my chain with that power user doodoo. I and others I know can do things just as fast with the SL viewer as anyone can with a TPV. Neither are better than the other in general. Personal preferences can make one better for certain users but not everyone.

 

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Orca Flotta wrote:

 

And once again V1 viewers prove how much they are advanced over all the  V2 and 3 stuff. :matte-motes-evil:

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There's an oxymoron if ever I've heard one. Outdated tech back porting new tech and claiming to be advanced. Priceless!

 

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I don't know enough about making viewers to comment with any great authority, but I do read what the various viewer devs say, and I think that Cool VL and Singularity could both best be described as exercises in modifying V3 to work with the old UI, as opposed to trying to backport features to the old codebase (which is what Phoenix did) or adapting the V3 UI to look like the old one (Firestorm's Phoenix mod).

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Seems like a lot of work to save the past but to each their own.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me what viewer anyone uses. As you know, what gets me is any change is bad change or the continual LL bashing. I'm at a loss as to why some don't want an improved graphics experience. Isn't that what SL is supposed to be about?

You know my history on this subject so I won't repeat myself too much :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

[Marigold Devin]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Orca Flotta wrote:

 

And once again V1 viewers prove how much they are advanced over all the  V2 and 3 stuff. :matte-motes-evil:

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There's an oxymoron if ever I've heard one. Outdated tech back porting new tech and claiming to be advanced. Priceless!

 

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I don't know enough about making viewers to comment with any great authority, but I do read what the various viewer devs say, and I think that Cool VL and Singularity could both best be described as exercises in modifying V3 to work with the old UI, as opposed to trying to backport features to the old codebase (which is what Phoenix did) or adapting the V3 UI to look like the old one (Firestorm's Phoenix mod).

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Seems like a lot of work to save the past but to each their own.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me what viewer anyone uses. As you know, what gets me is any change is bad change or the continual LL bashing. I'm at a loss as to why some don't want an improved graphics experience.

Isn't that what SL is supposed to be about?

You know my history on this subject so I won't repeat myself too much :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

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More about what SL is suppose to be about, and a rather interesting video.

 

[Deej Kasshiki]

You say you don't care and yet every time someone speaks about a TPV, you appear like Beetlejuice to "defend" the LL viewers and/or disparage TPVs. I think you doth protest too much Susperia. Also, by "marketplace" I meant the general SL population (as in marketplace of ideas not, Marketplace the website). My point is still valid; by LL's own figures. The LL viewer ranks 3rd or 4th in overall usage numbers. (Although the Lab has now stopped sharing these figures, there's no reason to believe that they've suddenly reversed. If their viewer had jumped in usage you can believe that they would be talking about it)

Attack the messenger all you like, the message remains valid.

[Perrie Juran]

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WADE1 Jya wrote:

true true hehe :catvery-happy: somebody could be on hallucinogens or what have you :catlol:

but you get my point no?

there could be a lot more done to eliminate fragmentation.

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In an ideal World we would all have the latest greatest hardware and the Internet would operate at the speed of light for everybody........no data bottle necks, no latency. 

But is it the differences we have today in hardware, quality of connection and related issues that causes the fragmentation?  Or does it simply impede its removal?

I would maintain that the fragmentation is more the result of how compartmentalized SL can be, the "empty SIM" syndrome. 

About half way through the video Marigold posted, Philip talks about Amazon.  He points out that there may be a hundred other people looking at the same exact item (web page) at any given time.  Then he asks the question, "What would it be like if you could start chatting with the other people who were looking at that page?"  That would 'de-fragment' the experience by removing the compartmentalization.

 

@Marigold...   Great Video!  I really laughed at the beginning when Philip quoted a new user's description of getting started on Second Life, that it felt like "crawling over broken glass!"

After six some odd years in SL I still get that feeling at times. 

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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WADE1 Jya wrote:

true true hehe :catvery-happy: somebody could be on hallucinogens or what have you :catlol:

but you get my point no?

there could be a lot more done to eliminate fragmentation.

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I'm not quite sure how you mean "fragmentation" in this sense so I may be missing your point.  As far as the shared experience, after Windlight was introduced I honestly don't see how LL could expect all avatars to see the same water, sky, ground, other avatars, etc. in exactly the same manner.  Even prior to Windlight if one person decided to force midnight on his viewer and another person had her's set to daylight, those people would be seeing the same scenery quite differently.  During our early exploring years my partner and I would go somewhere new and one of us would often say to the other something like, "Oooooooo....check out how this looks in mid-afternoon!" (Prior to the specific time of day settings.)

I often take photos of the same exact scene using various color themes to see what the effects are.

 

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Deej Kasshiki wrote:

You say you don't care and yet every time someone speaks about a TPV, you appear like Beetlejuice to "defend" the LL viewers and/or disparage TPVs. I think you doth protest too much Susperia. Also, by "marketplace" I meant the general SL population (as in

marketplace of ideas

not, Marketplace the website). My point is still valid; by LL's own figures. The LL viewer

ranks 3rd or 4th

in overall usage numbers. (Although the Lab has now stopped sharing these figures, there's no reason to believe that they've suddenly reversed. If their viewer had jumped in usage you can believe that they would be talking about it)

Attack the messenger all you like, the message remains valid.

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Still butthurt over Emerald being banned? I’ve read anger issues can be unhealthy.

I was talking about the present (your link is over a year old) but if you want to go there, I know a time when the LL viewer was 100% most used.

I’m not sure which movie to attribute your posts on this subject to Dege; Dumb and Dumber or Liar, Liar. Here are the inaccuracies in your post.

 

1. Deej Kasshiki wrote:”You say you don't care and yet every time someone speaks about a TPV”

Every time? Give me a break. This is just one of your continual exaggerations to further your angry agenda.

 

2. Deej Kasshiki wrote: “defend" the LL viewers and/or disparage TPVs”

Once again you fail to provide any post where I “disparage” TPV’s, (Emerald is another story but then again it was banned and my efforts were justified) furthermore posting an opinion is not defending anything, it’s my preference just like you have yours.

 

3. Deej Kasshiki wrote:“My point is still valid; by LL's own figures. The LL viewer ranks 3rd or 4th in overall usage numbers.”

Oh really? Despite listening to the conversation multiple times, never does Oz say what you do; yet another failed attempt by you to exaggerate the actual facts. Nowhere in the conversation did Oz use percentages. I suppose by figures you could mean ranking according to the market share demographic. The point you claim to validate was different.

 

4. Deej Kasshiki wrote:“The marketplace has voted and most prefer to use a TPV rather than the Lab's craptastic offerings”

No one voted at all according to your video. Why do you continue to post blatant misrepresentations? If anyone is disparaging it’s you.

 

5. Deej Kasshiki wrote:“there's no reason to believe that they've suddenly reversed”

Again, you clearly either can’t comprehend English or you’ve decided to ignore the truth. Anyone who can listen can clearly hear Oz stating that the Phoenix market share had been steadily decreasing for months and I highly doubt that trend has reversed. Given that this interview was over a year ago and the changes being made to the LL code, there could be one viewer with a higher market share. The OP is about the future not the past.

 

My issue has never been with TPV’s. My issue is with people like you who write exaggerated inaccuracies. Had you written a factual representation to begin with, I wouldn’t have replied the way I did. Had the messenger been stating fact instead of exaggerated claims, that messenger just may be listened to.

 

Deej Kasshiki wrote: “Attack the messenger all you like”

 

I’ve chosen my words carefully; perhaps you should have done the same…

 

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Marigold Devin wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Orca Flotta wrote:

 

And once again V1 viewers prove how much they are advanced over all the  V2 and 3 stuff. :matte-motes-evil:

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There's an oxymoron if ever I've heard one. Outdated tech back porting new tech and claiming to be advanced. Priceless!

 

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I don't know enough about making viewers to comment with any great authority, but I do read what the various viewer devs say, and I think that Cool VL and Singularity could both best be described as exercises in modifying V3 to work with the old UI, as opposed to trying to backport features to the old codebase (which is what Phoenix did) or adapting the V3 UI to look like the old one (Firestorm's Phoenix mod).

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Seems like a lot of work to save the past but to each their own.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me what viewer anyone uses. As you know, what gets me is any change is bad change or the continual LL bashing. I'm at a loss as to why some don't want an improved graphics experience.

Isn't that what SL is supposed to be about?

You know my history on this subject so I won't repeat myself too much :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

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More about what SL is suppose to be about, and a rather interesting video.

 

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I remember that video and watched it again.  Interesting indeed. A few quotes:

 

"The world’s biggest Lego set made of digital atoms" (SL graphics are digital.)

 

“expand the number of cores causing my company to make more money” 

 

"SL isn’t fun" (@10:28)

 

"3 or 4k out of a million active users making some sort of a living." (Less than 1% @14:10)

 

"If you’re happy with your first life, you probably won’t jump into a virtual world."

[Perrie Juran]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Marigold Devin wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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"If you’re happy with your first life, you probably won’t jump into a virtual world."

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I think he draws a wrong conclusion from the demographics he cited.

There is a convenience factor that comes in.  When I lived in the 'boondocks' it was a 30 to 40 minute drive each way for me to go to town to spend time with my friends.  Now that I live in the City, it's a five minute walk to my local bar/pub.

I spend less time In World now than I did then.  It had nothing to do with my happiness factor.  There was a trade off in benefits between living in each place.  Actually I was happier living in the boondocks.

What he says is probably true for some people, but I do not think for all.

 

ETA, I have some 'citified' friends who have told me they would hate to live in the boonies with nothing to do.  I guess they just prefer the sight of street lights over the light of the stars and the constant sound of traffic over the sound of corn growing.

 

[Griffin Ceawlin]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

3.

Deej Kasshiki wrote:“My point is still valid; by LL's own figures. The LL viewer

ranks 3rd or 4th

in overall usage numbers.”

Oh really? Despite listening to the conversation multiple times,

never does Oz say what you do

; yet another failed attempt by you to exaggerate the actual facts.

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Sure he does.

"Our own viewer users are a minority. A significant minority -- we're the number three viewer behind, behind the two... Phoenix is far and away the number one viewer, although it's quite steadily losing market share these days, has been for some months now. And Firestorm is the newer technology viewer from your project, is the number two, and it's gaining market share... And our viewer is number three behind Firestorm." (followed by Singularity)

Since then, Firestorm has overtaken Phoenix:

[opensource-dev] Congratulations to Firestorm

Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) oz at lindenlab.com

Tue Sep 4 04:53:35 PDT 2012

 

On behalf of Linden Lab, I'd like to extend congratulations to the Firestorm Viewer team.

 

Last week, Firestorm took over the #1 spot on the list of Second Life viewers in terms of total user time, surpassing its elder cousin, Phoenix.  The Phoenix viewer still has a slight lead in number of sessions, but Firestorm viewer sessions are on average significantly longer - which may in turn be due in part to its substantially better stability.

 

https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2012-September/009210.html

 

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4.

Deej Kasshiki wrote:“The marketplace has voted and most prefer to use a TPV rather than the Lab's

craptastic

offerings”

No one voted at all according to your video. Why do you continue to post blatant misrepresentations?

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Did you think that Deej was talking about people actually voting? You must be the only one.

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5.

Deej Kasshiki wrote:“there's no reason to believe that they've suddenly reversed”

Again,

you clearly either can’t comprehend English

or you’ve decided to ignore the truth. Anyone who can listen can clearly hear Oz stating that the Phoenix market share had been steadily decreasing for months and I highly doubt that trend has reversed. Given that this interview was over a year ago and the changes being made to the LL code, there could be one viewer with a higher market share.

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Yep, and I doubt it's the official viewer.

[Innula Zenovka]

Does it really matter which viewer is more widely-used?  

What matters to me, as a content creator, is that things I make and script should work pretty much the same no matter what viewer my customers use (which is why, as it became more and more outdated, I came to regard Phoenix with particular loathing, until I stopped supporting it altogether and started using all the cool new RLVa features that had been introduced since).

It's unfortunate that there's going to be a bit of an hiatus between LL introducing new features -- like materials -- and their becoming widely used, as Firestorm adopts them too.   But that's something we just have to live with.   I can understand why it takes time to merge the code -- certainly in this case, since they have to figure out what they're doing with the CHUI stuff, too -- and I can wait.

Othere than that, though, I am not concerned with what viewer people are using, unless they ask me how to do something.   

[Griffin Ceawlin]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Does it really matter which viewer is more widely-used?

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Nope. Doesn't matter at all. Certainly not to me. Pretending that the official viewer is #1, though, like some poeple, does nobody any good.