Mesh Clothing Designers, PLEASE INCLUDE THE FULL PERM ALPHA MASK TEXTURE

[Jennifer Boyle]

I have posted about this before.  As someone who is particular about her appearance, I often find that the alpha masks supplied with otherwise-good-quality mesh clothing to be inadequate and in need of modification.  Unfortunately, the designers seldom include the textures that they used for the alpha masks.  It is necessary for me to start from scratch making an alpha mask, even though the one supplied may have just needed a little tweak.  It would help so much if designers included full perm alpha textures that I could export, modify, and reimport to spare me the additional effort of making them from scratch.

Why won't designers do it?  It would cost them nothing.  It would make customers' lives easier, making their products more competitive.  There is no way that letting alpha mask textures out full perm could give competitors a significant advantage.

[Frawmusl]

Eh you'd think that, but then again people are very greedy  
Not many new creators know much about alpha maps and don't spend much time working on them. Because they are quite difficult to get to the point you want them, Especially those damned ankles! I can see why, and it is silly. Most new creators will take alphas and base their work around them, but to make it harder for new people to come in with alphas creators will not share

[Tiffy Vella]

Here's another thing for the "I know this will never happen but wouldn't it be great" Pile-

Let us make our own alphas in appearance mode, using sliders. But not as clunky as system clothing, of course. Or something. Anything has to be easier than the method we use now.

[Jennifer Boyle]

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Frawmusl wrote:

Eh you'd think that, but then again people are very greedy

 

 

 

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Doing what I propose could make a designer more competitive.  I'll bet that there are thousands of us who, other things being equal, would choose the designer who did it.  Also, the people who would appreciate this are people who are interested in clothes and interested in looking good---the very people who are most likely to spend a lot of money on clothes and, therefore, the people who it would be most profitable to attract as customers.

[Chic Aeon]

As a full time blogger I want to say that I get a LOT of clothing items that include alphas. I have a fairly easy to fit shape and basically toss them, but some designers (maybe the better ones -- who know?) are adding them into their packs.

[Sassy Romano]

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Chic Aeon wrote:

As a full time blogger I want to say that I get a LOT of clothing items that include alphas. I have a fairly easy to fit shape and basically toss them, but some designers (maybe the better ones -- who know?) are adding them into their packs.

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Not just "include" because that's an expectation but also include the full perm texture used to create the alpha.  I fully agree with Jennifer.  There's no downside to including a mask texture so that people have a starting point to use to modify.  It's just a mask texture after all.

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Frawmusl wrote:

Eh you'd think that, but then again people are very greedy

 

Not many new creators know much about alpha maps and don't spend much time working on them. Because they are quite difficult to get to the point you want them, Especially those damned ankles! I can see why, and it is silly. Most new creators will take alphas and base their work around them, but to make it harder for new people to come in with alphas creators will not share

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I think the opposite. Alphas are very simple to create if you use the tools required. It's basically like taking a sheet of paper and cutting off what you don't want.

They make templates for a reason. :matte-motes-wink:

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

 

Why won't designers do it?  It would cost them nothing.  It would make customers' lives easier, making their products more competitive.  There is no way that letting alpha mask textures out full perm could give competitors a significant advantage.

---

I love how people assume a creator’s time is worth nothing. You do realize how many different shape combinations are available don't you? Add to that the differences in rigged mesh for each designer and you have more combinations than most realize.

You can't buy perfection, let alone want it for free.

 

[Sassy Romano]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Frawmusl wrote:

Eh you'd think that, but then again people are very greedy

 

Not many new creators know much about alpha maps and don't spend much time working on them. Because they are quite difficult to get to the point you want them, Especially those damned ankles! I can see why, and it is silly. Most new creators will take alphas and base their work around them, but to make it harder for new people to come in with alphas creators will not share

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I think the opposite. Alphas are very simple to create if you use the tools required. It's basically like taking a sheet of paper and cutting off what you don't want.

They make templates for a reason. :matte-motes-wink:

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Yes EXACTLY, so provide the full perm alpha texture to be used as a TEMPLATE.  It's really not hard, costs nothing and helps the customer.

If you're suggesting that it's just fine to expect everyone to create their own alpha texture from scratch, then you might just as well inform creators that there's no need to waste their time making alphas at all since it's so easy for everyone to make their own.

Skills vary in SL, what you might find easy is not to others.  I have had customers for whom right clicking and creating a folder in inventory is a major challenge but it doesn't make them stupid or incapable, it means that *I* as a creator will do as much as I can in order to make my products work in the simplest way and help the customer in doing so.

Provide the alpha texture full perm, customers can make minor adjustments, not have to start from scratch loading in UV map templates and trying to figure out where each bit needs to be masked.

Not hard, just do it!

[Sassy Romano]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

 

Why won't designers do it?  It would cost them nothing.  It would make customers' lives easier, making their products more competitive.  There is no way that letting alpha mask textures out full perm could give competitors a significant advantage.

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I love how people assume a creator’s time is worth nothing. You do realize how many different shape combinations are available don't you? Add to that the differences in rigged mesh for each designer and you have more combinations than most realize.

You can't buy perfection, let alone want it for free.

 

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So, exactly how long does it take to add that full perm alpha texture that you uploaded, into the product box?  How much time did that take exactly?

It would take me longer to time how long it takes to time than to perform the drag and drop.

Get real.  Nobody is devaluing creators time but on the other hand, you're suggesting that the customer should spend their time creating from scratch the same texture that a creator has ALREADY created?

I'll say it again, add the full perm alpha texture to the product box, you've already uploaded it, it costs nothing in time or L$. 

Just do it!

[Monica Querrien]

I agree with this...especially since some designers insist on using poorly rigged mesh templates for their clothing. At least give us a chance to make the necessary modifications so that the clothing can be worn and not trashed or lost in the inventory.

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

 

Why won't designers do it?  It would cost them nothing.  It would make customers' lives easier, making their products more competitive.  There is no way that letting alpha mask textures out full perm could give competitors a significant advantage.

---

I love how people assume a creator’s time is worth nothing. You do realize how many different shape combinations are available don't you? Add to that the differences in rigged mesh for each designer and you have more combinations than most realize.

You can't buy perfection, let alone want it for free.

 

---

So, exactly how long does it take to add that full perm alpha texture that you uploaded, into the product box?  How much time did that take exactly?

It would take me longer to time how long it takes to time than to perform the drag and drop.

Get real.  Nobody is devaluing creators time but on the other hand, you're suggesting that the customer should spend their time creating from scratch the same texture that a creator has ALREADY created?

I'll say it again, add the full perm alpha texture to the product box, you've already uploaded it, it costs nothing in time or L$. 

Just do it!

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Not sure where you're coming from cuz we're on two separate pages.

 If you cared so much about how you look, you would do like I did, learn to make things yourself.

Get real? I thought this was SL?

[Sassy Romano]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

 

Why won't designers do it?  It would cost them nothing.  It would make customers' lives easier, making their products more competitive.  There is no way that letting alpha mask textures out full perm could give competitors a significant advantage.

---

I love how people assume a creator’s time is worth nothing. You do realize how many different shape combinations are available don't you? Add to that the differences in rigged mesh for each designer and you have more combinations than most realize.

You can't buy perfection, let alone want it for free.

 

---

So, exactly how long does it take to add that full perm alpha texture that you uploaded, into the product box?  How much time did that take exactly?

It would take me longer to time how long it takes to time than to perform the drag and drop.

Get real.  Nobody is devaluing creators time but on the other hand, you're suggesting that the customer should spend their time creating from scratch the same texture that a creator has ALREADY created?

I'll say it again, add the full perm alpha texture to the product box, you've already uploaded it, it costs nothing in time or L$. 

Just do it!

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Not sure where you're coming from cuz we're on two separate pages.

 If you cared so much about how you look, you would do like I did, learn to make things yourself.

Get real? I thought this was SL?

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No we're not on different pages at all.  Jennifer asked that creators include a full perm version of the texture that they've already created (0 extra time required) and already uploaded (0 extra time required) so that the customer may have an easier time editing the alpha texture to suit themselves (customer inputs time).

You said "I love how people assume a creator’s time is worth nothing."  There is NO time required by the creator to do as asked and it help the customer and saves the customer time.  Is it ok to assume that the customers time is worth nothing and that it's ok for them to start from scratch creating an alpha when the product creator has already made one?

I don't understand why you're challenging this?  It's a simple, straightforward request with absolutely no impact or consequence to the creator yet helps the customer.

Where is the issue here?

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

 

Why won't designers do it?  It would cost them nothing.  It would make customers' lives easier, making their products more competitive.  There is no way that letting alpha mask textures out full perm could give competitors a significant advantage.

---

I love how people assume a creator’s time is worth nothing. You do realize how many different shape combinations are available don't you? Add to that the differences in rigged mesh for each designer and you have more combinations than most realize.

You can't buy perfection, let alone want it for free.

 

---

So, exactly how long does it take to add that full perm alpha texture that you uploaded, into the product box?  How much time did that take exactly?

It would take me longer to time how long it takes to time than to perform the drag and drop.

Get real.  Nobody is devaluing creators time but on the other hand, you're suggesting that the customer should spend their time creating from scratch the same texture that a creator has ALREADY created?

I'll say it again, add the full perm alpha texture to the product box, you've already uploaded it, it costs nothing in time or L$. 

Just do it!

---

Not sure where you're coming from cuz we're on two separate pages.

 If you cared so much about how you look, you would do like I did, learn to make things yourself.

Get real? I thought this was SL?

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Okay, I'll say it.

You DO realize that Sassy is a pretty significant professional content creator in SL and has been for years, right? If SHE says that including a full-perm alpha isn't a big deal I'd be inclined to listen. It's like including extra buttons iwith a RL suit in case one gets lost. Yes, there's an art to selecting the proper button for an outfit, and yes, they have a cost. But it's NOT. ABOUT. The BUTTONS.

 

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Okay,

I'll

say it.

You DO realize that Sassy is a pretty significant professional content creator in SL and has been for years, right?

 

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 Never heard of her. Then again I'm not into SL cliques that brag about each other on blogs attempting to convince the masses how great they are.

BTW, what constitutes a "pretty significant professional content creator" ? 

Many people in SL can be considered great content creators despite not claiming to be.

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

 

Why won't designers do it?  It would cost them nothing.  It would make customers' lives easier, making their products more competitive.  There is no way that letting alpha mask textures out full perm could give competitors a significant advantage.

---

I love how people assume a creator’s time is worth nothing. You do realize how many different shape combinations are available don't you? Add to that the differences in rigged mesh for each designer and you have more combinations than most realize.

You can't buy perfection, let alone want it for free.

 

---

So, exactly how long does it take to add that full perm alpha texture that you uploaded, into the product box?  How much time did that take exactly?

It would take me longer to time how long it takes to time than to perform the drag and drop.

Get real.  Nobody is devaluing creators time but on the other hand, you're suggesting that the customer should spend their time creating from scratch the same texture that a creator has ALREADY created?

I'll say it again, add the full perm alpha texture to the product box, you've already uploaded it, it costs nothing in time or L$. 

Just do it!

---

Not sure where you're coming from cuz we're on two separate pages.

 If you cared so much about how you look, you would do like I did, learn to make things yourself.

Get real? I thought this was SL?

---

No we're not on different pages at all.  Jennifer asked that creators include a full perm version of the texture that they've already created (0 extra time required) and already uploaded (0 extra time required) so that the customer may have an easier time editing the alpha texture to suit themselves (customer inputs time).

You said "

I love how people assume a creator’s time is worth nothing.

"  There is NO time required by the creator to do as asked and it help the customer and saves the customer time.  Is it ok to assume that the customers time is worth nothing and that it's ok for them to start from scratch creating an alpha when the product creator has already made one?

I don't understand why you're challenging this?  It's a simple, straightforward request with absolutely no impact or consequence to the creator yet helps the customer.

Where is the issue here?

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Just curious, how many full perm textures/scripts do you provide in your products. Someone might need to adjust that something cuz it doesn't fit perfectly. Surely it takes no time as you claim so why not give everything away full perm so people can "download it, adjust it, and upload it.

Oh there is that thing about creators IP rights. Doesn't seem to be an issue with you however…

As I said, we are on two completely different pages. You're talking about packaging time; I'm talking about creation time.

I'm not really interested in debating you and sock puppets any further. Agree to disagree. End of story.

 

 

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

I have posted about this before.  As someone who is particular about her appearance, I often find that the alpha masks supplied with otherwise-good-quality mesh clothing to be inadequate and in need of modification.  Unfortunately, the designers seldom include the textures that they used for the alpha masks.  It is necessary for me to start from scratch making an alpha mask, even though the one supplied may have just needed a little tweak.  It would help so much if designers included full perm alpha textures that I could

export, modify, and reimport

 to spare me the additional effort of making them from scratch.

 

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[Sassy Romano]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

 

Just curious, how many full perm textures/scripts do you provide in your products. Someone might need to adjust that something cuz it doesn't fit perfectly. Surely it takes no time as you claim so why not give everything away full perm so people can "download it, adjust it, and upload it.

Oh there is that thing about creators IP rights. Doesn't seem to be an issue with you however…

As I said, we are on two completely different pages. You're talking about packaging time; I'm talking about creation time.

I'm not really interested in debating you and sock puppets any further. Agree to disagree. End of story.

 

 

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Firstly, I have no blog, I make no claim to fame and I don't ask anyone to write anything on my behalf and i'm not done with you yet.

Now that we're done with that, to answer your specific question.  I provide appropriate permissions for the products that I sell.  This isn't about IP or whether someone should give something away that has value.

Please think about it some more, precisely what unique value does an alpha texture have?  Um... NONE!  What possible IP issues exist with giving it away?  Um...NONE! 

We absolutely are on the same page.  Yet again, you refer to "content creation time" BUT YOU'VE ALREADY CREATED IT!!!!!  There is no extra creation burden, just pack it in the box which is what i'm saying.

 

Why are you championing reluctance to provide a texture, one which giving away has absolutely no negative effects whatsoever.  I cannot understand your view on this at all yet each time you avoid a technical answer and revert to ad hominem attacks both on this thread and others.  By the way, I don't wear mesh breasts and i'm a size 8 on the SL boob slider scale and in that thread I referred to the z alpha sort issue in OpenGL, nothing that could be solved with an alpha layer, sorry that you didn't understand the issue there.

 

[Alicia Sautereau]

Same here, got several pieces that the alpha is on the mesh edge and when worn, you can see gaps

Worse of all is that these "designers" use those full perm templates so half the crap out there has a srewed alpha for the clothing
Simplest solution that worked for me so far is dump it in a "no-buy" folder so that i avoid half the junk stores and stop spending money on buying clothes *fixed*

Been sitting on l$10k for the past 2 weeks for clothing, but refuse to buy more crap lol

[Madeline Blackbart]

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Alicia Sautereau wrote:

Same here, got several pieces that the alpha is on the mesh edge and when worn, you can see gaps

Worse of all is that these "designers" use those full perm templates so half the crap out there has a srewed alpha for the clothing

Simplest solution that worked for me so far is dump it in a "no-buy" folder so that i avoid half the junk stores and stop spending money on buying clothes *fixed*

Been sitting on l$10k for the past 2 weeks for clothing, but refuse to buy more crap lol

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there's nothing wrong with using template mesh or sculpties it doesn't make you less of a designer. It still takes a lot of work to make those textures. Granted I've seen people buy template mesh and doa  color change and call it a day but not everyone does that. I personally spend hours sometimes days making textures for the stuff I sell even if it is on template mesh. Personally I always check the alpha on my own avatar to see if it looks alright since I know that some templates come with terrible alphas. Still when I get the chance I may update my boxes to include the fullperm alpha texture since I never thought about it to include them in the first place.

[PeachJubilee]

The IP issue that does exist for texturers of full perm mesh is that the license often obliges them to not distribute any of the content full perm (and yes it sometimes even specifically mentions the alpha texture just to be clear that they really meant that too).

 

I don't know why they'd do that.  As you seem to be pointing out, there is no loss of value to the original creator if these alpha textures that are specific to particular pieces of mesh clothing are distributed full perm.  Unless someone buys the mesh clothing itself, what else can they do with the alpha specific to it?  But if it is in the license, then it's in the license...

[Sassy Romano]

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PeachJubilee wrote:

The IP issue that does exist for texturers of full perm mesh is that the license often obliges them to not distribute any of the content full perm (and yes it sometimes even specifically mentions the alpha texture just to be clear that they really meant that too).

 

I don't know why they'd do that.  As you seem to be pointing out, there is no loss of value to the original creator if these alpha textures that are specific to particular pieces of mesh clothing are distributed full perm.  Unless someone buys the mesh clothing itself, what else can they do with the alpha specific to it?  But if it is in the license, then it's in the license...

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Yes, so provide a new alpha layer.  It's not like anyone is going to sue for an alpha design, that's just plain pointless!  It's not difficult for a content creator to create an alpha that masks the same parts without having to redistribute the one from the kit.

Heck, i'm happy to provide the mesh item mod/copy to my customers, include the alpha source files and the UV map.  If someone wants to texture it differently than me, i'll make it easy for them to do so.

[TishaRogue]

Most designers that sell mesh items are using full perm builder kits and making textures so the style is more their design.

When they get those kits they come with strict rules about how the products textures and maps can be used in regards to selling and transferring to the next owner. One of the biggest and most common rules in most if not all build kits is that the designer (person that bought the kit) can not give or sell any of the contents of the kit as full perms. For a designer to include the alpha templates in the package you (the end user) gets they would have to take off ether the copy or the transfer permission at the very least to stay within the rules. Changing the texture away from full perm will make it so you cant send it to your computer still.

Another main rule in all the TOS agreements that come with the build kits state that the designer (person that bought the kit) can not transfer any of the items or the kit as a whole in its "as is" state. That the items must be used as a build, a part of a whole product that is now the new designers creation. We would be breaking the Build suppliers TOS specified to send the alpha template even if it was not as full permission.

The designer seems to get all the bad press for this sort of thing but unless the designer is the original creator of the build supplies we have to follow very strict rules before sending on to the end user (customer).

Its not as simple as saying the designers are being lazy or cheap by not adding these items into the final purchase product. The designers have to cover their butts so they don't get shut down or have their account frozen for breaking these rules that are supported by the Labs themselves

[TishaRogue]

referring to Sassy's comment "Yes, so provide a new alpha layer.  It's not like anyone is going to sue for an alpha design, that's just plain pointless!  It's not difficult for a content creator to create an alpha that masks the same parts without having to redistribute the one from the kit."

 

What your saying in this response is a fine line away from saying to just send all full perm templates we get to our computers and re upload them as out own. Maybe you think its just an alpha what does it matter but then the next person says its just a template what does it matter. There is a line specific to follow so we don't have the grey areas people can bicker over. If the license states not to transfer the textures then sending them to a hard drive and re uploading them is just a thief's way of bending the rules.

[Sassy Romano]

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TishaRogue wrote:

referring to Sassy's comment "Yes, so provide a new alpha layer.  It's not like anyone is going to sue for an alpha design, that's just plain pointless!  It's not difficult for a content creator to create an alpha that masks the same parts without having to redistribute the one from 

the kit."

 

What your saying in this response is a fine line away from saying to just send all full perm templates we get to our computers and re upload them as out own. Maybe you think its just an alpha what does it matter but then the next person says its just a template what does it matter. There is a line specific to follow so we don't have the grey areas people can bicker over. If the license states not to transfer the textures then sending them to a hard drive and re uploading them is just a thief's way of bending the rules.

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It's not a fine line at all.  If you create an alpha template then it's YOUR creation. End of story.   If I create an alpha template that fits me better, does that mean i'm open up to a DMCA being filed against me for making an alpha like the one provided?  Not at all!

Make an alpha, provide your own alpha textures full perm,  everyone happy.

To put it bluntly, any original creator getting in a twist about their alpha texture being supplied really needs a good spanking back to "Get a Clue School".  If they don't want to risk it being passed on, don't bother including it in the template and make that part of the template process, same as texturing for what possible value does including an alpha texture in a template have?  Anyone capable of using a template is capable of creating and uploading an alpha texture.

That's not to say that i'm advocating breaking any licence nor am I saying download and re-upload but the process results in effectively the same alpha.  It's a completely non drama item.

[Teagan Tobias]

Even worse is when you purchase a copy / modify item and find the alpha is no copy. The item is advertised as copy / modify but IMO having the alpha as no copy and advertising the item as copy / modify is dirty. If one, just one part of an item is no copy, what you have is a no copy item.

A lot of the items for sale in SL are blanks (or what ever you call them) and the “creator” only adds a texture to it. The only good part to this is that you can get the correct alpha, or a better alpha, from another creator. And if they have even come close to a nice texture then they get my business and not the “creator” with the no copy alpha. [rant over]