The Downgrade Survey

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Coby Foden wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Out of premium folks, LL makes all the money of the fees -PLUS- more money from buying lindens and marketplace taxing, and other forms of tier.

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• Are there any statistics available to show that premium members buy more L$ than basic members do?

 

 

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Are there any statistics to show they buy less?

 

 

[Deltango Vale]

"It's been said many times that Linden Lab does not understand their own product."

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Kodak didn't understand their core product either - and went bankrupt. If the folks at Kodak couldn't figure out the digital camera (which they invented), what chance for Linden Lab?

The only hope is for another company to buy Second Life (including patents, IP, human capital, IT infrastructure) and rebuild SL from the ground up (as should have been done in 2006/7). Anything else is simply rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

What drives me insane is that SL has huge potential, but I seem to be the only person in the entire galaxy who sees it. Oh well. Imagine the frustration of a handful of people in Kodak who wrote email after email pleading with the Board to get out of celluloid film and into the digital age. It's heartbreaking.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

You can go from being basic to being Premium and get the bonus after 45 days, even if you start as basic.

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*Now* one apparently can if there is no more fine print than what I just read on the premium page, but it wasn't like that in 2007.  That was discussed quite a bit on the forums back then when people who began as basic accounts then went premium posted saying, HEY!  where is my bonus?

It might have had something to do with SL going from all pay to free accounts prior to when I joined.  At any rate, I assure you I never received the bonus.

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

You can go from being basic to being Premium and get the bonus after 45 days, even if you start as basic.

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*Now* one apparently can if there is no more fine print than what I just read on the premium page, but it wasn't like that in 2007.  That was discussed quite a bit on the forums back then when people who began as basic accounts then went premium posted saying, HEY!  where is my bonus?

It might have had something to do with SL going from all pay to free accounts prior to when I joined.  At any rate, I assure you I never received the bonus.

 

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No, I believe you. I was just letting you know how it is today. You can go from Basic to Premium and 45 days later get the signup bonus. 

[161488303349]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

You can go from being basic to being Premium and get the bonus after 45 days, even if you start as basic.

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*Now* one apparently can if there is no more fine print than what I just read on the premium page, but it wasn't like that in 2007.  That was discussed quite a bit on the forums back then when people who began as basic accounts then went premium posted saying, HEY!  where is my bonus?

It might have had something to do with SL going from all pay to free accounts prior to when I joined.  At any rate, I assure you I never received the bonus.

 

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yes thats right

on this time round i got the bonus

on my time before that early 2007 i not get any bonus. didnt get my first land either even tho linden was still advertise even on the signup that i would get. that really annoyed me. i end up pay 1000s of L for my parcel then

on my first time before that i got nothing. but was nothing promised then so that was ok

[Coby Foden]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Coby Foden wrote:

• Are there any statistics available to show that premium members buy more L$ than basic members do?

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Are there any statistics to show they buy less?

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Umm.. an answer to my original question would have revealed that too. :smileyindifferent:

 

(Sorry, my error that I didn't phrase my question as: "Are there any statistic to show which group of account holders buy more L$")  :smileywink:

Linden Lab might know, but they prefer to keep it a secret.  I guess nobody else has that info perhaps.

 

Not all basic account holders are "free riders" having a free lunch.  There are basic account holders who create a lot, and also those who spend money in SL.

What I personally don't like in premium account is that if there is a glitch in payments due to Linden Lab - even if it was not the fault of the resident - the account is put on hold in a blink of an eye.  No warning, no questions asked, the door is just slammed on one's face.  Then it can take days to resolve the problem to get the account active again.

 

 

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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16 wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

You can go from being basic to being Premium and get the bonus after 45 days, even if you start as basic.

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*Now* one apparently can if there is no more fine print than what I just read on the premium page, but it wasn't like that in 2007.  That was discussed quite a bit on the forums back then when people who began as basic accounts then went premium posted saying, HEY!  where is my bonus?

It might have had something to do with SL going from all pay to free accounts prior to when I joined.  At any rate, I assure you I never received the bonus.

 

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yes thats right

on this time round i got the bonus

on my time before that early 2007 i not get any bonus. didnt get my first land either even tho linden was still advertise even on the signup that i would get. that really annoyed me. i end up pay 1000s of L for my parcel then

on my first time before that i got nothing. but was nothing promised then so that was ok

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I'd forgotten about first land.  Apparently that had been discontinued shortly before we joined as well.  That was another thing I saw in the forums a lot: "I just joined SL/became Premium - how do I get my first land?"

Gosh...forgot how much has changed.  And yes, purchasing land: even really poor quality mainland located in the middle of ad farms with twirling signs cost more than 1L/sqm; and land with a view or on an ocean, etc. - those could be really expensive!!  I think the last land that I owned a couple years ago I set it to sell to land bots quickly and got something like 3L/sqm iirc.

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Coby Foden wrote:

 

What I personally don't like in premium account is that if there is a glitch in payments due to Linden Lab - even if it was not the fault of the resident - the account is put on hold in a blink of an eye.  No warning, no questions asked, the door is just slammed on one's face.  Then it can take days to resolve the problem to get the account active again.

 

 

 

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Very true!  I posted this elsewhere not too long ago - I recall a forum post years ago regarding a premium member who was behind on his premium payment which eventually resulted in his account being cancelled and avatar/inventory deleted.  Iirc,  the account wasn't deleted immediately but the resident did try to make payment at some point, which is when he discovered his account was gone.  The discussion that arose from this reported incident was: Why is it that a basic account is active forever, even if someone signed up, left the same day, and never returned; however, a premium account that misses payment risks losing their account & inventory.

I'm not at all defending non-payment, but it would make more sense to downgrade the person to basic, take back any land owned, and freeze the account until payment was brought to date, but not totally delete it.  One poster in that discussion said it is for that reason that his premium account is for an alt used to purchase land, etc. and one that has very little inventory while his main stays basic to not risk any kind of billing glitch. 

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Coby Foden wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Coby Foden wrote:

• Are there any statistics available to show that premium members buy more L$ than basic members do?

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Are there any statistics to show they buy less?

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Umm.. an answer to my original question would have revealed that too. :smileyindifferent:

 

(Sorry, my error that I didn't phrase my question as: "

Are there any statistic to show which group of account holders buy more L$

")  :smileywink:

Linden Lab might know, but they prefer to keep it a secret.  I guess nobody else has that info perhaps.

 

 

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Which makes me curious why you replied to me, as you're implying some stance there. The person to reply to is the person I replied to - who implied that by being free members, only they bought lindens.

My point stands:

A premium members also buys lindens, AND pays the monthly fee.

Lacking any evidence to say who buys more lindens, there's more revenue coming out of premiums.

- It -IS- logical to assume premiums might buy 300L -less- per week, but that's it. And that is only about $1.05 worth (4.20/month) - even the cheapest premium rate costs more than that.

 

You make an insinuation that I am claiming someone is a freeloader. I made no such claim - so don't insinuate it against me.

 

[Coby Foden]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

 

You make an insinuation that I am claiming someone is a freeloader. I made no such claim - so don't insinuate it against me.

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Sorry, it really wasn't my intention to make an unpleasant hint at you personally, even if my reply was to your post.

My remark was just a general one, not personally aimed at anyone.  As English is not my mother tongue, sometimes I might not choose my wordings and sentences in the best possible way.

So I will say:  I'm    for having hurted your feelings.

 

 

[SinfulPrince]

In the beginning I was premium. Right up until I "really" understood about buying land. As a premium member with 512m of free tier, in order to live on 1024m, it costs 10dollars for the membership plus 8 and maybe some change for the other 512 tier. Total cost : lets call it 19dollars and  Prims (I can't remember exactly but...) someplace between 200-300.

On a private sim, even one thats a little upscale, nice landscaping and no giant toad (or other eyesore I commonly had the pleasure of finding beside lots sold by linden) next to my house or paying a buttload of money to some other player to "buy" the plot they bought from linden at auction, and rarely seeing neighborhoods that looked like neighborhoods (I like when they do) and the cramped up encampment of linden houses so close together that they can't help but lag.....after seeing that, and after calculating the cost of a private sim neighborhood I end up with MORE LAND for less cost (about 7-8dollars less) and MORE PRIMS (500something or other).

The value was in going basic and buying land on a private sim.

Linden labs then would have to increase the land allowance AND prim allowance, AND regulate what kinds of builds could be in a "neighborhood" AND landscape the environment for exactly that same 19dollars to make it even a topic for me to consider.

And if they raised the prices for the sim owners then I really would feel sorry for LL, cuz there is not enough enabled by way of animation in the format of SL to make it worth either cost. (Translation, time to dump SL. Which I already have done twice in only a year and a half )

People like me only pay grown up money when we can play a grown up way.

[Melita Magic]

So it seems part of the problem (or solution, depending how one looks at it, or, from which vantage point) is that, as long as Linden Lab allows 'sublets' - people buying land, paying tier to Linden Lab, and then renting it to other tenants - the residents and Linden Lab are competing for the same dollar.

Land is currently less than 1 Linden per meter on the mainland. Abandoned land is 1 Linden per meter, so if a resident wishes to sell their old land, they are wise to post it as less than that. Exceptions might be a sought after location, or land with something special about it, such as unblockable water access or something else that is unique. Of course, double prim land usually goes for more too. But in general, land prices are so low that people often simply abandon land to avoid the tier payment. 

I remember trying to buy a 4096 from a resident who was holding onto old prices tooth and nail. I could not afford that price and kept waiting. Finally, he lowered it somewhat (still double the going rate, if not a bit more, but then I paid) and said the price he had originally paid for it. It was something like 50L a meter, if I recall correctly. For mainland.

I think it can't be too surprising all things considered if people are leaving for other virtual worlds, or giving up land to sell on Marketplace instead. 

I think SL was designed to be a place to be, not a place to buy. Maybe Linden Lab needs to revisit what Second Life is for.

This turned out to be windier than I had intended. For what it is worth I didn't feel Porky's post was trying to be snobbish or superior. It was just his opinion, his version of a possible solution. I wish I had thought of Qie's idea, but I don't know that I could manage 117 alts, and I would be afraid to be banned for having more than the 'official' allotment, which, I think should itself be 'banned' as 'law.' You (LL) want to encourage more ways to play, not fewer, in my opinion. 

 

[Czari Zenovka]

 

Melita Magic wrote:

So it seems part of the problem (or solution, depending how one looks at it, or, from which vantage point) is that, as long as Linden Lab allows 'sublets' - people buying land, paying tier to Linden Lab, and then renting it to other tenants - the residents and Linden Lab are competing for the same dollar.

 

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It's kind of situational.  Speaking only for mainland and taking my situation as an example:

*My landlord owns a parcel of land (probably more but just speaking of this one for the example).  He purchased it around 2006 during "boom time." At one point I wanted to purchase the parcel. During our conversation I got the impression he paid something like $150.00 USD or possibly more for it.  It is a prime parcel in that it is a corner parcel bordered by two completely unobstructed Linden oceans.  To purchase and continue owning land he pays for a Premium account.  So LL received the original purchase price of this parcel as well as continued tier from my landlord.

*I rent this parcel which is a great financial deal for me as stated in one of my posts above.  I live on the same parcel for half of what it would cost me to be Premium and pay tier, never mind my inability to purchase the land at the price that my landlord would as *if* he sold.  My LL most likely pays tier partially from my rent and LL receives the ongoing tier for this parcel.

An argument could certainly be made that if mainland owners did not rent out land then more people would become Premium and purchase their own land, thus LL receiving more tier.  However, there are all kinds of variables in that - one being that a lot of people choose not to purchase land.  I recall one regular forumite years ago who enjoyed the fact that he was a "vagabond."  It was his "thing."  When I first began SL I rarely ran into people who didn't own even a bit of land or rented on an estate.  Having a "home" held importance - at least that's the impression I got.  During the last two years most of the new people I have met (and in this case I'm referring to random guys I've danced with) do not own nor rent land.  There is a certain group of people who only come to SL to dance/party and that's it.  For them, they don't spend time anywhere else, so a home is apparently superfluous.

One area where LL is directly competing with land owners who rent land/estates as a business is the Linden Homes. True,  it comes as part of being a Premium member but, in the past, some of those residents might have purchased a larger piece of land or rented on an estate which, in the case of the latter, was business for the estate owner.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just throwing in some more possible variables.

 

 

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Melita Magic wrote:

So it seems part of the problem (or solution, depending how one looks at it, or, from which vantage point) is that, as long as Linden Lab allows 'sublets' - people buying land, paying tier to Linden Lab, and then renting it to other tenants - the residents and Linden Lab are competing for the same dollar.

 

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Many people purchased land as a business move.  There was gold in those hills but most of it has been panned out now.  Many people point their fingers at Linden Lab, policy and practice decisions by the Lab, for the way the Land Market collapsed.  Outside of the Estates, many Land Lords were having a hard go at it when the Linden Homes came into play.  I know for a fact it was the final nail in the coffin for my Land Lord at the time.

My Landlord owned three full Mainland SIMs and kept them residential friendly.  It is this residential friendly factor that is a big reason why people will rent from Estates.  Full ownership of a SIM, which by its nature is what an Estate has, is the only way you can have full control of activity on a SIM. 

This also is the reason I support a minimal level of zoning on the Mainland, that some areas should be designated residential only.

When an Estate advertises 'buy a SIM,' it is really a misnomer that I feel should be disallowed.  Ownership of the SIM does not transfer.  All you are doing is purchasing the (revocable) right to play on that SIM.

 

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Melita Magic wrote:

For what it is worth I didn't feel Porky's post was trying to be snobbish or superior. It was just his opinion, his version of a possible solution.

 

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I was very careful about what I said about Porky's comments, to not accuse him of being elitist.  Only that his statements came across that way.  That was my initial gut reaction to his comments.  I found his point that he made in favor of his position, 'good for the Lab,' to be extremely weak and it really did not make sense.  I would love for him to come back and elucidate more.

Ultimately speaking, if something the Lab does is not good for the Residents, then it is not good for the Lab.  People will take their money elsewhere.  Some people actually already have.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

There is a certain group of people who only come to SL to dance/party and that's it.  For them, they don't spend time anywhere else, so a home is apparently superfluous. 

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I became a -LOT- less social the moment I got my first piece of land and put up a home.

So I understand these people in a sense. Its hard to have time and energy to be both dedicated to home decorating and social... unless well, SL is your RL.

But the kinds of folks you meet will vary a lot depending on the kinds of places you go. And yeah, going to dance clubs means meeting folks who have dedicated SL to social-butterflying. Hit up builder communities and furniture shops and of course it flips - there are sandboxers, but most people rent or own a plot somewhere.

 

I stick to mainland for many reasons - and it works for me.

Others do what they do for their own reasons.

One curious thing I've found among friends is that the mainlander friends mostly visit other places on mainland, and the estate friends mostly visit other estates. This is just an odd anecdote... I think I end up on mainland locations so much because as a mainlander, its instinctive for me to explore by opening the map.

Estate folks don't have that luxury: their places are often single sims in isolation, or linked sims of a community. They explore with search.

- And viewpoints / perspectives / comfort zones on SL often differ greatly as a result.

 

Estate minded friends regularly complain about clashing themes when visiting mainland. Mainland minded friends note seeing the edge of the world / running out of land when visiting estates.

 

[Deltango Vale]

Let me give you some history. In late 2006, during the massive immigration wave, Linden Lab had no land management strategy for the mainland. No new mainland sims were created. Tier on private estates was raised from US$195 to US$295. The demand for mainland skyrocketed. The supply was frozen solid. Guess what happened next?

That's right. Mainland prices skyrocketed. Finally, LL began adding some new sims...a trickle at first, which resulted in them being bought at auction for US$5000, cut and resold retail. LL restarted the First Land program, but because the demand was so high, anyone lucky enough to get a 512m2 for the discount price of L$1 per m2 immediately flipped it to speculators. Through gross mismanagement, Linden Lab generated a huge bubble in mainland prices.

What did LL do next? They flooded the market - and I mean completely swamped the market. There was no land management strategy other that creating thousands of sims. The market collapsed, wiping out the first big wave of immigrants to SL. Not content with this devastation, LL initiated a program of discriminatory pricing that drove the Europeans out of the market, essentially killing SL's European expansion. Needless to say, many Europeans dumped their land onto an already weak market and ditched their Premium accounts.

Gods, the story goes from bad to worse. The 'XXX' policy cause huge disruption. Not only was more land created, but people were forced to move their long-established homes and businesses to this new land. Mainland prices fell even further.

Meanwhile the 'relative price' of tier continued to rise. I will spare people a long essay and convert economic jargon into a simple, exaggerated illustration: In 2006, an island sim cost US$300 per month. In 2006, a moldy bit of bread cost US$300. In 2012, an island sim costs US$300 per month. In 2012, one can buy three nuclear submarines or a round trip to Jupiter for US$300. That, in a nutshell, is the problem with SL's high and rising 'relative cost' of tier. SL Marketplace is not the problem. The problem is that people cannot afford the tier for a large residential parcel on which to build and furnish a home. LL sucked up all the small-parcel owners/tenants into Linden Homes. The number of private estates has fallen back to where it was in 2009. A person can now buy a new iPhone every month for the same price as an estate sim.

We are now in a situation where 10% of the mainland is abandoned. Land prices are effectively zero except in rare and special locations and the mainland rental industry is dead. Meanwhile the CEO has gone AWOL, the company is running around like chickens with their heads cut off and we spend out time being ignored in the SL official forum.

This is why to only way out of this mess is for Linden Lab to sell Second Life to another company who can rebuild it and manage it properly.

[161488303349]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

Not content with this devastation, LL initiated a program of discriminatory pricing that drove the Europeans out of the market,

essentially killing SL's European expansion

.

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i seen this one a lot argued over all the time. is a rubbish argument

linden is a realworld compnay bound by the tax laws of the sovereign states they operated in

linden as a company cannot evade pay taxes

if citizens of soverieign states not want to pay their own taxes then they can change their own laws through the democratic/gov process that apply in their own countries

is total wrong for sovereign nation citizens to ask another to either help them evade taxes or even ask the lindens to pay the taxes for them so is somehow"more fair that they only have to pay same total price as americans or others for linden products

USA and other countries not get any benefit from other nations VAT that pays for social services and responsibilities in those countries where VAT applies

 

[Czari Zenovka]

A very well thought out post.   Great points.  I concur with:

"I stick to mainland for many reasons - and it works for me."

Let's hear it for mainlanders! :matte-motes-big-grin:  As you said, it works for me as well and others do what's best for them.

Maybe it's because I've lived primarily on one mainland sim most of my time in SL and the residents "generally" don't put up hideous builds, but I've greatly enjoyed my homes on the mainland.  I never realized on an Estate that one couldn't go very far out into the "ocean.  I rented shop space on an Estate sim for a few years and flew out to the edge one day to check out the pretty rocks with waves breaking over them to see who the creator was.  It was a total surprise to me to hit an invisible wall.  My mainland sim fronts Linden oceans so I'm used to flying out over the ocean and I was like, "HUH????" lol  Then I remembered..."Oh yeah...Estate sims aren't connected to anything."

 

 

 

[Deltango Vale]

You did not read the article. I recommend you sit down and read it carefully. Those who have actually read it, got it.

[161488303349]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

You did not read the article. I recommend you sit down and read it carefully. Those who have actually read it, got it.

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and i recommend that you not extrapolate the argument into something thats it not

like

"LL initiated a program of discriminatory pricing that drove the Europeans out of the market" 

[161488303349]

ps

i find the whole argument that someone else should pay your taxes instead of you to be wrong on any kind of ethical basis

in that whole argument on that blog is this huge contortion to make it seem that the person/company/org paying your taxes for you means that somehow they will be better off

+

is the exact same argument that "investors" make when justify why they should only pay like 15% of their income in taxes. and the person working for wages has to pay 28%. that somehow the wage earner is better off bc of the "benefits" that the 15% taxer can accrue for the whole society

is rubbish

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I read the article and disagree with it.  I think how you feel about  it depends on your point of view. 

When LL absorbed the VAT and paid it themselves they were subsidizing the tier for Europeans, hardly fair to people that live in countries without VAT.  According to the European Commission Taxes and Custom Union page, VAT is paid for by consumers similar to a sales tax in the US, and is a percentage of the cost of the goods. Here is a quote from that page: (The bolding is mine.)

Digital services purchased over the internet are liable to VAT. The rate of VAT applicable to private individuals will depend on the status of the vendor. If the vendor is established in the European Union, he will charge the rate of VAT applicable in his Member State of establishment. If the vendor is not established in the European Union, he will charge VAT at the rate applicable in the Member State of consumption of the service.

  So the actual laws require LL to charge for the VAT.

Some states have sales tax in the US but LL does not pay it for those members, so why should Europeans be subsidized at a rate equal to the taxes they are supposed to be charged for?  I agree with 16.  If Europeans don't want to pay the tax there is a remedy.  Change the law.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Melita Magic wrote:

But seriously, folks.

They should restructure tier. I (and many others) have been saying that for years.

I would like to tier down considerably; but if I do I would still wish to keep some small parcels above the cutoff point. 

However, the way things are now, if I own even a few meters past that lower cutoff point, I pay for an entire sim more. IIRC it's structured, past the half sim point, by half or whole sims. How about just paying (tier) per meter, period?

Now that might encourage people to buy land, because they would be paying by meter, instead of by parcel. If that makes sense. Then I could afford to buy and sell land without worrying about it increasing my tier by another $100 USD per month.

The same would be true of downsizing, but it would lead to happier customers, a more positive image of owning land, less worry and risk overall. Then when people's fortunes improved, or they had an idea that required more land, they would happily buy more, because they wouldn't be paying those extreme prices for tier. Right now, I feel somewhat stuck at my tier level, which is not an enjoyable feeling. If I were able to reduce to what I felt I 'needed' or the land I most enjoyed as opposed to 'well I'm paying for a whole sim I may as well own land,' I'd be a happier customer.

More people would also own land if the system were not punitive (huge dollar jumps and huge meter jumps) and that would stimulate land prices and sales again. LL might only make money from tier but that's looking at the result instead of the big picture of what makes people buy.

Mind you I'm not discussing the 'land barons' who got in early and cheap and get a whole different deal than most of us rabble. That's a separate topic and always will be.

 

 

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I think you hit the nail on the head about the way tiers are structured on the mainland.  If they charged by the actual meters in the parcel more people might buy mainland.  The way it stands now, for the most part it is cheaper to rent on a private estate than it is to own mainland up to the point of owning a half a sim or larger.  Of course if you own a whole sim on mainland, you still don't have estate rights, which is a deal breaker for a lot of people wanting an entire sim.

There was mention that if LL made it so mainland owners could not rent land that it would result in increased sales of mainland.  I disagree with that because it would still be cheaper to rent on a private estate, so those renters would flock to private estates where you can get all the same benefits of being a land owner for less and not even have to put down a purchase price in many instances. You can find private estate land all over where the 'purchase' price is only 1L or if higher, is actually your first week or months tier.

Of course LL could stop estate owners from renting land too, but if they did that, the majority of private islands and the income they generate for LL would disappear over night. Most of those that rent private estate land would probably leave SL or go without owning any land.  Few would buy mainland.

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

A very well thought out post.

  Great points.  I concur with:

"I stick to mainland for many reasons - and it works for me."

Let's hear it for mainlanders! :matte-motes-big-grin:  As you said, it works for me as well and others do what's best for them.

Maybe it's because I've lived primarily on one mainland sim most of my time in SL and the residents "generally" don't put up hideous builds, but I've greatly enjoyed my homes on the mainland.  I never realized on an Estate that one couldn't go very far out into the "ocean.  I rented shop space on an Estate sim for a few years and flew out to the edge one day to check out the pretty rocks with waves breaking over them to see who the creator was.  It was a total surprise to me to hit an invisible wall.  My mainland sim fronts Linden oceans so I'm used to flying out over the ocean and I was like, "HUH????" lol  Then I remembered..."Oh yeah...Estate sims aren't connected to anything."

 

 

 

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There are private estates that have water sims that surround them or are intertwined among the homesteads and regular sims.  I rented on one for a time that had over 110 sims you could sail on. We'd still be there if not for the fact that we got our own sim. 

People that rent on private estates that are stand alone islands like it that way.  You get more privacy plus an ocean view and can terraform your land to allow for water entry or not as  you choose. 

 

[161488303349]

is another thing that sometimes gets missed

in countries that got VAT-like laws then the tax code says is only payable once on any goods or service. so is no double-taxation. which is fair

so a VAT-registered taxpayer can claim back any VAT that they have paid for goods and services against any VAT that they are due to pay

in some tax periods it means that can even get a VAT credit and the tax department actual pays you money

+

so if a VAT-payable land baron gets their VAT paid by linden then they are still able to claim a VAT credit on the amount that linden paid

so lets say: pay $100 include 11.11% VAT. then the baron can claim the VAT as a credit and only pay effective $89. so they get cheaper land than say a USA baron who have to pay the whole $100. and also get the social/society benefits of the taxes paid by linden

+

is this kinda thing that we can sometimes forget or disremember when we get stuck in our own personal o.m.gs