To RODVIK - Request meeting with Merchants on CommerceTeam concerns

[Trinity Yazimoto]

yeah ... At least its an answer.... but not enough for making me jumping up and down....

First, Commerce Team Linden, you are late for your answxer ! Ok, better late than never, but you have zero skills for a good communication. This is not enough to come here after 4 silent weeks... what you say to us now, you was able to say it earlier.

Second, i m really intrigued by you skills of reading. Obviously, you missed a lot of other point we told you. What about these points ? (wrong pic displayed, notification for reviews, better search engine, fix the relevance classiification, and even more, but i wont do your job here, if you read carefully again all the thread you will see you missed a lot of points....). On top of the list i would now place a better communication with merchants ! You have to give us updates more often !

Dont think its enough to come here saying nothing new except highlighting some points and tell to us you are working on it. We have precise questions and needs. We need answers and deeds.

Its not like if we started this thread yesterday. This thread started on the 8th of october. So one month before. You needed one month to finally give us only 2 final answers regarding the merchant group and the backlog.... for the remaining of the list its pure fantasy... in you last 2 updates, the list is different and miss a lot of points, and still the same answer : "wait, wait wait"... ok, we are waiting. but till when ? Can you tell us at least a projected schedule ? Can you tell us what kind of priority you put to every point ? 

Nevertheless, thanks for this update. I hope we wont have to wait one month more for the next one.  Read again the thread and build a correct list of points to fix. No matter your answers, we need to know what are your plan regarding the whole list.

You have still a lot to do. Its a start keep on this way.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

---

Exactly.  Some of us have seen this article, others haven't.  I've been holding back on posting it, but this seems like a good time.

This

explains a lot of things; even the responses of most of the posters are an insight into the target group it appears Rod is trying to attract, either in SL or, more likely, his other endeavors.

ETA:  This is the paragraph that really gets me:

“When I was thinking about leaving EA,” said Humble during a recent meeting. “I was going to do my own company, and it was going to be around creative spaces--games that emphasize creativity tools more. When the opportunity came up and Linden Lab got in touch...first of all,

Second Life? Is that still around? [laughs]

I looked, and it was really, really healthy. Also,

it was a company that was ready made to do a whole bunch of other products, which I wanted to do.”

 

(Bolding mine)  For someone approached to be the CEO of a company near and dear to many of us to basically "laugh" at SL is a slap in the face.  The last sentence, to me, explains how Rod spends his time within LL and why we're not hearing more from them on SECOND LIFE issues.

---

You know, I don't mind that LL is making other things. What does bother me is that they have totally abandoned giving us any information. 1 of the major factors that kept me around and creating was that we got to hear from LL, on a regular basis. We had some idea of what they were doing.

Today, outside of this new stuff, LL doesn't make any announcements concerning SL. They never did any meaningful marketing of SL. We don't know anything about what their thoughts on the future are for SL. All the key areas that made SL great have been mashed up into things no1 can even comprehend, like the MP, and inworld search. Plus, every few weeks, there is a major disruptive event that kills sales for a few days. I kind of thought this crap was behind us.

What worries me is that LL will continue to neglect all the things they have neglected for years. No1 at the lab cares that there are still major content related bugs. You add on all their changes to MP, search, and other things, and the result is what we have now. It's like they don't understand that SL is their bread and buttter. Without it, there would be no LL. Yet they continue to pass the buck on all the minor, minor to them, bugs and move on to other complicated things that cause even more bugs and instability.

Stability is the main factor. That should come first, but Rod seems to overlook stability for new projects or features. It takes so long for LL to do anything in SL, they don't seem to test anything properly. I cringe everytime they release anything new in SL.

Last, I just want to say to all those that keep saying SL is dying, look around you. This has got to be the slowest death of a platform I've ever seen in my life. This implies to me that SL only declines because of the poor management of it. If we could get LL to concentrate on fixing bugs, working on MP and search, spend some money on marketing, and lowering the tier a bit, then SL would start to grow again. This would be a first for any platform, to comeback for the throws of death. To me, it's obvious that people like SL and it attracts people.

[Medhue Simoni]

Who says you need anything like Turbosquid. It's basically a junkyard, full of way overpriced items, and almost no good freebies. I opened my own site to sell my stuff. There is no way in the world I'm going to give some website owners 50% of my profits. I have no clue what the commission is at Turbosquid, but Daz and Renderosity are 50%. How they think they can charge this, blows my mind. ShareCG will be opening a new site, or expanding on ShareCG, some time this month. The owner has not stated exactly what their commission will be, but it's almost guaranteed to be lower than the others. It was basically a place to get free stuff for most of it's existance.

My site has been doing OK, since I first opened it a few months ago, easily paying for itself now, and with only 10 products. I'll upgrade to more products once I have the time to invest in it more. 95% of all my traffic comes directly from Youtube. Now Youtube has matured into a major marketing tool. Plus, I'm actually making money off of Youtube now, since I started concentrating on it a few months ago. It's kind of too bad that LL doesn't have any1 looking at the marketing trends, cause SL could get a major boost if LL hired a fulltime machinima creator and released a new video every week.

Here is my latest video. Of course, most of what I'm posting on Youtube are tests. This 1 was a test to see how SL backgrounds would work with what I'm doing. Creating 3d environments are costly on both the pocketbook and on the computer. So recording all the environments in SL and just green screening the zombies into it makes alot of sense. Hopefully next year, I'll start making more videos with actual story lines.

[Irene Muni]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

... ... ...

Last, I just want to say to all those that keep saying SL is dying, look around you. This has got to be the slowest death of a platform I've ever seen in my life. This implies to me that SL only declines because of the poor management of it. If we could get LL to concentrate on fixing bugs, working on MP and search, spend some money on marketing, and lowering the tier a bit, then SL would start to grow again. This would be a first for any platform, to comeback for the throws of death. To me, it's obvious that people like SL and it attracts people.

---

Totally agree. and especially with this paragraph.

 

[Porky Gorky]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

Last, I just want to say to all those that keep saying SL is dying, look around you. This has got to be the slowest death of a platform I've ever seen in my life. This implies to me that SL only declines because of the poor management of it. If we could get LL to concentrate on fixing bugs, working on MP and search, spend some money on marketing, and lowering the tier a bit, then SL would start to grow again. This would be a first for any platform, to comeback for the throws of death. To me, it's obvious that people like SL and it attracts people.

---

I think there is another possible destiny for SL that I've never seen discussed here and that is reduce scaling the entire operation. If LL somehow manages to become self sustainable with non SL related products and SL continues to decline in usership then that doesn't necessarily mean SL needs to close for good. Everything from server capacity to the number of SL associated staff could be scaled back to say 2004/5 levels. It would result in a massive upheaval for everyone that owns mainland plots  and chances are everyone on mainland would need to move, but I think if given the option of either moving plots or SL closing for good, the vast majority would move. SL could close temporarily, all private regions saved and stored, all mainland wiped away. The new rebooted SL opens with just enough new mainland to support the existing community and to accommodate any predicted short term growth. All private regions are restored. Everyone who used to own a mainland plot is given an equivalent sized plot for free on the new continent/s. Once everyone is settled in it's business as usual, just on a much smaller scale resulting in the platform being much more financially sustainable for LL. And who knows, with a sparkling fresh new mainland with well planned infastructure built in it might even help stimulate growth again.

[Pamela Galli]

ooh I enjoyed the zomie movie!

[Medhue Simoni]

I don't think LL will really make up for SL with those other games. I'm sure they will do OK, but considering that LL has never been any good at marketing, I just can't see the other ventures as massively profitable. I also think LL sees things similarly, as they are releasing 4 brand new products. This implies to me that they are going for creating in volume and seeing what sticks. I kind of like most of their new products, but again, I can't see them overtaking what they get from SL.

The problem that I see for LL, is the cost of maintaining SL, at least how they are doing it. If you ask me, LL could still cut a crapload of waste from their payroll. It's not the world that cost so much, it's the employees and the jobs they have to do. If we don't have engagement from LL, then they could cut a lot of none coder people. Plus, considering what they pay the people they do have, they have lots of room to cut pay and benefits.

Considering that the real cost is not servers, LL would never have to shut down to move things around and be more efficient. They could just open up a new continent, and migrate people over to it. In my mind, LL could close all the different continents, except those exclusive to certain things, like Zindra, and the Korean continent, and just have 1 big continent for every1 else. I'd also like to see ALL the continents connected, so that you can walk from 1 to another.

@Irene - I doubt LL will do anything productive. History is not on their side.

@Pamela - Thanks!

[Czari Zenovka]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

---

Exactly.  Some of us have seen this article, others haven't.  I've been holding back on posting it, but this seems like a good time.

This

explains a lot of things; even the responses of most of the posters are an insight into the target group it appears Rod is trying to attract, either in SL or, more likely, his other endeavors.

ETA:  This is the paragraph that really gets me:

“When I was thinking about leaving EA,” said Humble during a recent meeting. “I was going to do my own company, and it was going to be around creative spaces--games that emphasize creativity tools more. When the opportunity came up and Linden Lab got in touch...first of all,

Second Life? Is that still around? [laughs]

I looked, and it was really, really healthy. Also,

it was a company that was ready made to do a whole bunch of other products, which I wanted to do.”

 

(Bolding mine)  For someone approached to be the CEO of a company near and dear to many of us to basically "laugh" at SL is a slap in the face.  The last sentence, to me, explains how Rod spends his time within LL and why we're not hearing more from them on SECOND LIFE issues.

---

You know, I don't mind that LL is making other things. What does bother me is that they have totally abandoned giving us any information. 1 of the major factors that kept me around and creating was that we got to hear from LL, on a regular basis. We had some idea of what they were doing.

Today, outside of this new stuff, LL doesn't make any announcements concerning SL. They never did any meaningful marketing of SL. We don't know anything about what their thoughts on the future are for SL. All the key areas that made SL great have been mashed up into things no1 can even comprehend, like the MP, and inworld search. Plus, every few weeks, there is a major disruptive event that kills sales for a few days. I kind of thought this crap was behind us.

What worries me is that LL will continue to neglect all the things they have neglected for years. No1 at the lab cares that there are still major content related bugs. You add on all their changes to MP, search, and other things, and the result is what we have now. It's like they don't understand that SL is their bread and buttter. Without it, there would be no LL. Yet they continue to pass the buck on all the minor, minor to them, bugs and move on to other complicated things that cause even more bugs and instability.

Stability is the main factor. That should come first, but Rod seems to overlook stability for new projects or features. It takes so long for LL to do anything in SL, they don't seem to test anything properly. I cringe everytime they release anything new in SL.

Last, I just want to say to all those that keep saying SL is dying, look around you. This has got to be the slowest death of a platform I've ever seen in my life. This implies to me that SL only declines because of the poor management of it. If we could get LL to concentrate on fixing bugs, working on MP and search, spend some money on marketing, and lowering the tier a bit, then SL would start to grow again. This would be a first for any platform, to comeback for the throws of death. To me, it's obvious that people like SL and it attracts people.

---

You know the world is coming to an end when we agree on something.   In fact, I agree 100% with this post, Medhue.  I, too, am not opposed to LL/Rod creating new games or ventures; my concern was and continues to be just what you said - SL issues are being neglected in lieu of those.

I've been misquoted or misinterpreted if there is an impression I am hailing the end of SL although, as you said, mismanagement or no management continues as it has been and things do tend to die out from entropy.  My purpose in referencing the interview article has been in response to posts that keep asking why - why isn't CTL listening to us (ok, so it looks like they've recently  "listened" again but haven't said anything new) - why isn't there any management going on - why have the MP mixed listings gone on for 9 months, etc., etc.  I still feel very strongly that a lot of the "answers" are because LL is spending more time and the limited resources they may have (I need to go read up on what happened with Oskar Linden) on new ventures.

I am reposting this paragraph since I very, very strongly agree with it:

"Last, I just want to say to all those that keep saying SL is dying, look around you. This has got to be the slowest death of a platform I've ever seen in my life. This implies to me that SL only declines because of the poor management of it. If we could get LL to concentrate on fixing bugs, working on MP and search, spend some money on marketing, and lowering the tier a bit, then SL would start to grow again. This would be a first for any platform, to comeback for the throws of death. To me, it's obvious that people like SL and it attracts people."

 (Edited for grammar.)

[Czari Zenovka]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

 

I'd also like to see ALL the continents connected, so that you can walk from 1 to another.

---

Same here!  It's been a goal of mine to figure out a good starting point on one of the Old Continents and do a walking tour of SL - at least as far as I could go.

 

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

---

 I still feel very strongly that a lot of the "answers" are because LL is spending more time and the limited resources they may have (I need to go read up on what happened with Oskar Linden) on new ventures.

 

 

---

I have exactly the same feeling... This is what i precisely reproach to them.

I agree 100 % with Medhue's post aswell.

[Porky Gorky]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Considering that the real cost is not servers, LL would never have to shut down to move things around and be more efficient. They could just open up a new continent, and migrate people over to it. In my mind, LL could close all the different continents, except those exclusive to certain things, like Zindra, and the Korean continent, and just have 1 big continent for every1 else. I'd also like to see ALL the continents connected, so that you can walk from 1 to another.

 

---

I disagree, reducing, the server qty and their associated costs would be a key component to reducing running costs for SL.  Assuming LL could reduce the server count by say 50% (which I think is a low estimate, they could consolidate and get rid of more) this would save them money on renting or owning space to host the servers, reducing building rates, reducing power costs, reducing hardware upgrade costs, reducing insurance costs, reducing the cost of engineer support and reducing the cost of the labs own technical support and sys admit. A 50 to 70% reduction in server capacity and it's associated costs would save LL hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars on operating costs per year. 

[Medhue Simoni]

---

Porky Gorky wrote:

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

Considering that the real cost is not servers, LL would never have to shut down to move things around and be more efficient. They could just open up a new continent, and migrate people over to it. In my mind, LL could close all the different continents, except those exclusive to certain things, like Zindra, and the Korean continent, and just have 1 big continent for every1 else. I'd also like to see ALL the continents connected, so that you can walk from 1 to another.

 

---

I disagree, reducing, the server qty and their associated costs would be a key component to reducing running costs for SL.  Assuming LL could reduce the server count by say 50% (which I think is a low estimate, they could consolidate and get rid of more) this would save them money on renting or owning space to host the servers, reducing building rates, reducing power costs, reducing hardware upgrade costs, reducing insurance costs, reducing the cost of engineer support and reducing the cost of the labs own technical support and sys admit. A 50 to 70% reduction in server capacity and it's associated costs would save LL hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars on operating costs per year. 

---

I did not say that there was no cost in all those servers. What I meant was that this cost is tiny compared to the cost of all the employees. In any company, the cost of employees far surpasses any operating costs. I agree with you that there is much waste in all those sims that are not occupied, and it would help every1 to clean them up. The total cost tho, is somewhat irrelevant, especially when talking about power, as LL just implemented a system that shuts down regions with no1 on them. They start back up when some1 enters the region.

The act of moving every1 around would be very disruptive. Plus, there is a notion that some properties are better than others, especially on the mainland, and beach property. I'm not against reconfiguring the mainland, but it would not be such an easy task.

[Perrie Juran]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

---

Porky Gorky wrote:

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

Considering that the real cost is not servers, LL would never have to shut down to move things around and be more efficient. They could just open up a new continent, and migrate people over to it. In my mind, LL could close all the different continents, except those exclusive to certain things, like Zindra, and the Korean continent, and just have 1 big continent for every1 else. I'd also like to see ALL the continents connected, so that you can walk from 1 to another.

 

---

I disagree, reducing, the server qty and their associated costs would be a key component to reducing running costs for SL.  Assuming LL could reduce the server count by say 50% (which I think is a low estimate, they could consolidate and get rid of more) this would save them money on renting or owning space to host the servers, reducing building rates, reducing power costs, reducing hardware upgrade costs, reducing insurance costs, reducing the cost of engineer support and reducing the cost of the labs own technical support and sys admit. A 50 to 70% reduction in server capacity and it's associated costs would save LL hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars on operating costs per year. 

---

I did not say that there was no cost in all those servers. What I meant was that this cost is tiny compared to the cost of all the employees. In any company, the cost of employees far surpasses any operating costs. I agree with you that there is much waste in all those sims that are not occupied, and it would help every1 to clean them up. The total cost tho, is somewhat irrelevant, especially when talking about power, as LL just implemented a system that shuts down regions with no1 on them. They start back up when some1 enters the region.

The act of moving every1 around would be very disruptive. Plus, there is a notion that some properties are better than others, especially on the mainland, and beach property. I'm not against reconfiguring the mainland, but it would not be such an easy task.

---

"The act of moving every1 around would be very disruptive. Plus, there is a notion that some properties are better than others, especially on the mainland, and beach property. I'm not against reconfiguring the mainland, but it would not be such an easy task."

There would be the problem of remapping and re-associating contiguous SIM's.

There were some or many who thought (or still think) that rather than isolating Adult to Zindra, General rated should have been isolated to it's own Continent. 

The original thinking that commercial builds would rise up around the Telehubs with the out laying areas being residential didn't last long.  Though it might be harder to achieve now, it would have been nice if some areas of the Continents had been designated as residential only.  I think this would result in a much higher level of Mainland ownership. 

 

[Porky Gorky]

The moving and reallocation of mainland I suggested in this theoretical scenario would only be required as a last resort. Move or SL closes as it is no longer sustainable in it's current form. We would need to have reached a tipping point where SL is operating at a loss. I think given that choice a good majority %  would sign up for the move, despite the disruption, as the alternative would be worse.

[Perrie Juran]

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Porky Gorky wrote:

The moving and reallocation of mainland I suggested in this theoretical scenario would only be required as a last resort. Move or SL closes as it is no longer sustainable in it's current form. We would need to have reached a tipping point where SL is operating at a loss. I think given that choice a good majority %  would sign up for the move, despite the disruption, as the alternative would be worse.

---

Of course this is all supposition.  We don't know how profitable SL is.  No question if the return on investment dried up, SL would go bye bye.

If SL closed it's doors this year I don't think any of the alternate VW's could handle the influx right now.  Also, some might be in for a shock.  While it might be easy to assume that cost per user would go down, I think it would actually go up.  One reason "taxes are higher in the city" is because the cost of maintaining infrastructure:  There is more wear and tear where there is more use among other things.

But we are getting a little off topic.

Linden Lab needs to improve their customer service regardless if it's a Merchant or a Consumer like myself.  Maybe it just falls under the general category of "improving search,"  but I  have noticed that my specific point regarding the problem with searching for an item versus searching for a merchant has not been added to the issues to address list.  This has a bad impact upon both Merchants and Consumers.

A business should never underestimate the importance of competent communications and a competent communicator.

 

 

[Foreplay Aftermath]

Actually we the avatars of SL are the ones who pay for everything. Until I started to read this thread I have always mistrusted SL merchants. I can name on one hand those who actually provide good customer service, and seem to be trust-worthy and competent. However, having read about these complaints, if they are actually factual, it does explain why SL seems to be loosing a great deal of their population during the nearly two years or so I have been here.

I suggest that Linden and particularly those responsible for managing commerce explain their problems so we all have an understanding of the problems so everyone can work together to solve them. 

The latest Phoenix creation "Firestorm" changes daily with no avenue for feedback by us users. There appear to be at least two sometimes three ways of doing the same thing on this viewer!  Were not all Techies!  Keep to the KISS principal please! You had lots of happy users when things were simpler.   

A very frustrated user.

[Pamela Galli]

Firestorm creators and support personnel are not merchants, but volunteers. They sell nothing. They have a very active inworld support group manned by volunteers. They have a JIRA to report bugs.

So it looks to me like they have, as a gift and a courtesy, provided a superior product at no cost, and supported it extremely effectively.

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Firestorm creators and support personnel are not merchants, but volunteers. They have a very active inworld support group manned by volunteers. They have a JIRA to report bugs.

So it looks to me like they have, as a gift and a courtesy, provided a superior product at no cost, and supported it extremely effectively.

---

Glad you pointed that out.  Unlike Rodvik's executive decision to GAG LL JIRA's and hide growing list of inworld serious bugs that are now festering (i.e. group notice attachments, sim instability, etc.), the PHOENIX Team has maintained their public open JIRA system (the way it should be). 

And yes, also unlike LL that staying in hiding and avoids any contact with its own customer base, the volunteer group of the Phoenix Team is very vocal and engaging with LL's SL customers/community.  In fact only a few weeks ago they hosted a major public inworld and streamed and recorded 1.5 hour session where they announced their dropped support for the phoenix viewer, their reasons why, and also fielded countless questions from the huge audience on ANY other topics that were brought up. 

They also are often very open and honest with SL residents and their users - even if its not what some people want to hear.  Finally I know for a fact they are alway speaking up for all SL residents and defending SL residents against a lot of LL's stupid moves.

So almost all the complaints in this thread - which I want to point out that Rodvik and the Commerce Team have most not responded to - rest at the feet of Rodvik (CEO of LL) and his Commerce Team.  They have proven once again with their lack of action to this thread that they truely do no care about Merchant concerns.

[Toysoldier Thor]

ForePlay,

After reading this forum thread and even taking note that Rodvik made the ULTRA RARE move of actually posting in a Merchant thread (something I would safely recall is the only time Rodvik has posted in a Merchant thread during his entire term as CEO), might have noticed the following that us Merchant sure have:

 

• ALL questions directed to Rodvik - i.e. questions like asking him directly why he made the decision to gag the SL Resident JIRA - have gone unanswered by LL's CEO.
• The Commerce Team's slow to come initial response to the Merchant requests in this thread were almost completely ignored - as if we didnt even suggest them - yet they responded by promising to take action on items we did not even mention in this thread.
• Eventually the Commerce Team responded again whereby they completely rejected the Merchant's most asked for request, to re-engage the monthly / weekly inworld User Group meetings with the Merchants... a practice that is actively occuring by other development teams of LL every week.  The Commerce Team is so muzzled and afraid to have open two-way dialog with its primary customers that they refused our #1 request.
• They also made no commitments or promises to devliver most of the other complaints the Merchants brought up for Rodvik and the Commerce Team to address.

As such, Rodvik and the LL Commerce Team crystalized the Merchant's already strong beliefs with proven lack of follow-up or action regarding concerns brought up on this thread.  It proves that Rodvik's word has no level of commitment.  By posting in this thread - all he was doing was attempting to do was to pretent to show token concern / support for Merchant concerns in hopes that it will quell the boiling frustration in the SL Merchant community.

But as Darrius mentioned in this thread - if Rodvik ends up not showing action behind his vague words of change it will only make the already poor relationship between LL Commerce Team and the Merchants 10x worse.

Well.... you see the action Rodvik took.....

NOTHING - it was only EMPTY WIORDS

[Czari Zenovka]

Hi Foreplay!  I'm so sorry to hear you've had a negative experience with some SL merchants.  Fortunately the handful of times I've had to contact a merchant regarding a product I purchased, I received excellent customer service, sometimes above and beyond, such as not only correcting the issue but also sending an additional gift.

After I became a merchant, however, and began responding to my customers, 99% of the time the customer said, "Wow!!!!  You actually contacted me" which, unfortunately demonstrates that there are merchants in SL who then make the rest of us look bad.   I can safely say that the merchants who regularly post in these forums provide amazing service to their customers; however, as with the SL forums at large, it's only a very tiny percentage of SL residents who even know these forums exist, much less participate in them.

The point I'm trying to make is that, while there are less than scrupulous merchants in SL, there are also amazing ones so please don't give up on us as a group.

Re: viewers - even with the LL version 1.x viewer that I began SL using over five years ago, quickly followed by my switching to the Nicholaz viewer when LL started making changes to their viewer that I didn't care for - there has generally always been at least two ways perform most functions.  Some people love keyboard shortcuts, others prefer the mouse point-and-click, so the lack of simplicity in the respect you mention has been present in all viewers..at least the ones I've personally used.

I do agree (and I'm sure others will disagree on this) that the LL viewers, beginning with v2, became bloated with "features" to the extent that some long-time SL residents, me included, had difficulty finding where they moved even very simple features.  After spending about a half-hour trying to figure out how to turn off sound in V2, which was on by default for some strange reason, I switched to the Phoenix Viewer (same group who puts out Firestorm) and was thrilled to have a "familiar" viewer once again. 

I am in the process of acquiring a new PC because the one I have cannot handle any of the v2/v3 viewers nor any of the v1 types that support mesh, thus I have never used Firestorm.  When I do have a choice once again on viewers, I am certainly going to check out Firestorm since I have been so pleased with Phoenix, but I am hearing that many Phoenix devotees prefer the Singularity viewer because it is a bit sleeker.  You might want to give some other viewers a try; fortunately there are quite a few nice third party viewers out there that offer different things for different SL users.

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

at least, if they only came and explain they wont do what we are asking and needing bec they cant or even bec they did other choices.. well.. at least, it would have displayed they read us and take us in consideration, maybe even that they consider we are existing.

But as Toysoldier said... nothing, and even worst.... some simple empty words, not real ones... like the ones adults say sometimes when kids are acting up and the adults wants to be quiet. 

its nothing but disdain. 

Sadly

And there is no excuse for this. In any way.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

Unless you're seriously expecting Rodvik to say, "Good heavens!  You've persuaded me that the L$ is, in fact, a form of currency.  I shall direct my legal department to rewrite

Section 5 of the ToS

forthwith, in the hope we can thus stay under the radar of government regulators",  which seems a bit fanciful,  to my mind the only thing that's going to persuade LL that the L$ is, in fact, a form of currency would be a judicial ruling to that effect.    Making claims is one thing.    Persuading a court to enforce them is quite a different kettle of fish.

Has anyone, in fact, sought profession advice from a competent attorney about the likelihood of a court being persuaded to set aside the ToS in this respect?   It seems to me rather a specialist area of the law, I have to say.

---

Besides necro-posting to remind Rod and the commerce team of prior discussions ...

An belated answer to your question as to whether L$ is a real currency? Yes, indeed it is now. Or at least close enough for government work.

http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html

One step closer to consumer protection.

Of course merchants should make sure the tax man is getting his pound of flesh as well, although PayPal handles part of that reporting for you these days.

As to the "is it currency" debate, perhaps we can finally put this one to rest, though. Doesn't matter if it's regulated as such. It can't be TOS'ed away.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

Unless you're seriously expecting Rodvik to say, "Good heavens!  You've persuaded me that the L$ is, in fact, a form of currency.  I shall direct my legal department to rewrite

Section 5 of the ToS

forthwith, in the hope we can thus stay under the radar of government regulators",  which seems a bit fanciful,  to my mind the only thing that's going to persuade LL that the L$ is, in fact, a form of currency would be a judicial ruling to that effect.    Making claims is one thing.    Persuading a court to enforce them is quite a different kettle of fish.

Has anyone, in fact, sought profession advice from a competent attorney about the likelihood of a court being persuaded to set aside the ToS in this respect?   It seems to me rather a specialist area of the law, I have to say.

---

Besides necro-posting to remind Rod and the commerce team of prior discussions ...

An belated answer to your question as to whether L$ is a real currency? Yes, indeed it is now. Or at least close enough for government work.

http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html

One step closer to consumer protection.

Of course merchants should make sure the tax man is getting his pound of flesh as well, although PayPal handles part of that reporting for you these days.

As to the "is it currency" debate, perhaps we can finally put this one to rest, though. Doesn't matter if it's regulated as such. It can't be TOS'ed away.

---

I think you are reading into that. 

"FinCEN's regulations define currency (also referred to as "real" currency) as "the coin and paper money of the United States or of any other country that is designated as legal tender and that [ii] circulates and [iii] is customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance."3 In contrast to real currency, "virtual" currency is a medium of exchange that operates like a currency in some environments, but does not have all the attributes of real currency. In particular, virtual currency does not have legal tender status in any jurisdiction. This guidance addresses "convertible" virtual currency. This type of virtual currency either has an equivalent value in real currency, or acts as a substitute for real currency."

 

I could substitute 'sardines' for virtual currency.

I could trade in Sardines all day long.  What this deals with is the issue of what happens when I convert my Sardines to "Real Currency,"  which is specifically set in contrast to Virtual Currency.

 

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Sorry, I was being a bit sarcastic there and not clear enough.

The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network specifically makes the distinction that virtual currency is NOT real currency. It is however regulated as real currency. This includes virtual money exchanges and issuers of virtual currency.

The important bit I'd said was that it doesn't matter so long as the regulation is there.

More importantly is that they formally provide the glue that virtual currency has real money value going in, going out and in-between.

It can no longer be said by LL to be merely value-less tokens. The  government says otherwise, thus the regulation.

[Perrie Juran]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

Sorry, I was being a bit sarcastic there and not clear enough.

The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network specifically makes the distinction that virtual currency is NOT real currency. It is however regulated as real currency. This includes virtual money exchanges and issuers of virtual currency.

The important bit I'd said was that it doesn't matter so long as the regulation is there.

More importantly is that they formally provide the glue that virtual currency has real money value going in, going out and in-between.

It can no longer be said by LL to be merely value-less tokens. The  government says otherwise, thus the regulation.

---

No where has Linden Lab ever said that Linden Dollars are value-less. 

What the TOS says is actually very in harmony with this rule:

"You acknowledge that Linden dollars are not real currency or any type of financial instrument and are not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time."  (my bolding)  The FinCen ruling clearly acknowledges that virtual money  is not real currency.

An error in thinking many people have (and I am not saying that you have it, just speaking in general), is that people think when they buy or sell Linden Dollars is that they are buying or selling them from Linden Lab. 

Linden Lab however is a "Money Transmitter Service" as defined by FinCen:

 

"FinCEN's regulations define the term "money transmitter" as a person that provides money transmission services, or any other person engaged in the transfer of funds. The term "money transmission services" means "the acceptance of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency from one person and the transmission of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency to another location or person by any means."  (again my bolding)

This is exactly what Linden Lab does with the Lindex.  They facilitate the buying and selling of Linden Dollars between Residents.  As Administrators of the Lindex they clearly explain in the TOS how the Lindex operates. 

I don't see anything in the TOS that does not fit with this rule.