To RODVIK - Request meeting with Merchants on CommerceTeam concerns

[Dartagan Shepherd]

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Couldbe Yue wrote:

 

... changing the subject completely, has anyone heard from Dart?  he hasn't been on here for 3 weeks.

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Still here and watching. I figured I'd sit it out and wait a while to see what happens and needed to catch up on some things in the background.

Didn't buy into the sincerity bits in the first place, but I'd hoped that LL knowing that the other side is at least aware of the nonsense would provide enough incentive to stop with the games and focus on the practical tasks.

Watching Rod or someone posting as Rod throw down the "we come into work caring about the users" card was at least a gesture.

Problem for me as a New Yorker who's been around the block too many times is that I've seen this kind of "sincerity" before many times.

We're sorry we've mis-billed, over-billed, cross billed, multiple billed ... and yet the stuck advertisements continue, so even with refunds they're still coming out ahead. So long as the money keeps coming out of peoples pockets without a way to cancel they can keep "ooopsing" and refunding to their hearts content.

This isn't a new or particularly clever game to play with billing.

I think the solution would be for LL employees to give up their credit card numbers and trust us with recurring billing. Because we wake up in the morning thinking about Lindens and how we can serve them better.

No, really.

To get back on where the topic has been going, I'm not seeing real investment into SL. I'm seeing a continuation of projects, pulling back on resources like closing one data center, SL events, more sims stuffed onto newer hardware than could be managed by older hardware and moves to limit the amount of resources that their servers have to stream out over the last months.

I'm not seeing any new investments in time or money that really cost much of anything to LL that they're not already paying for, and not yet seeing increased effort here on the marketplace that extends past an hour worth of time posting some minimal bits of info.

Would love to see some indicators other than lip service and small token changes that a real game studio could handle in a month. I'm still seeing lip service and milking and pulling back of SL resources.

[Porky Gorky]

Maybe we should all get a kickstarter type project going, raise enough funds so that we can temporarily hire a couple of e-commerce professionals to go into LL and fix every problem on the MP. A couple of weeks of fund raising, a week of work on the MP and we could have the whole thing sorted out before Crimbo.

 

[Couldbe Yue]

Tried that with the deformer project, LL refused to implement it.  Well, they're doing the passive aggressive thing of actively ignoring it and hoping it goes away.

[Porky Gorky]

Oh yeah I had forgot the history with Qarl. That's annoying. I kind of said it as a joke initially but the more I thought about it the more I think it's a great idea that could be spread to other problem areas of SL such as the inworld search. Resident funded task forces sent in to resolve the issues that bug us all. Shame it will never happen.

[WADE1 Jya]

One thing all merchant should be aware is LL seeing YTD loss of 10.5%. That is rate of grid shrink, net loss of private regions this year is now 2,500. LL's primary revenue source is quite rapidly slipping away.

Unfortunately, this loss rate is part of a larger gloomy picture, a year-on-year pattern of accelerating decline. Q1 & Q2 of this year being less severe decline and less consistent decline than Q3 & the beginnings Q4 (where we are now) bring purely steep sustained attrition.

For how long is that pattern sustainable? Where is the profitibility margin to server costs? Don't think LL will keep the doors open for a minute longer once they are approaching that margin. As we approach this, LL execs will have already established their comfort zone, choosing when a certain number is hit, this number represents the predecided time to close shop. Make your own plans accordingly. I for sure know I have.

=()=

 

[Innula Zenovka]

How much do you think we need to raise?   Over at SLU, a very respected member of the community who works on such systems in RL put the cost, as a ball-park figure, in the range of a quarter to half a million dollars. 

[Porky Gorky]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

How much do you think we need to raise?  

Over at SLU

, a very respected member of the community who works on such systems in RL put the cost, as a ball-park figure, in the range of a quarter to half a million dollars. 

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Don't go listening to those noobs over at SLU, they talk nonsense. We can just get Darrius to do it all, I've heard he would do anything for 6 pack of bud and a cheeky cuddle :matte-motes-big-grin:

[nikita Jefferson]

I know some merchants are doing well on MP, myself, i feel like a needle lost in a haystack.

I think among other reasons, LL shot themselves in the foot with their desire to tax every sale on MP, they offer a free shop with low cost enhanvements to get merchants to open a shop on MP.

It worked very well, now there are so many merchants listing on MP, and don t need land, so thousands have given up renting shops, or buying regions .

Yes some do well on SL , but for the average shop owner who cant afford to pay hundreds of dollars a week to be high in classifieds, business is slow with too many shopping on MP.

Yes it is easier to shop there (MP), no traveling around from region to region and no lag.

LL should get back to what they are,,a virtual world, and i know this won't be popular with many MP merchants, but they need to dump MP and conscentrate on what they originally started out to do, run a virtual wourld, also lower land tier so many can afford it

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

But they're not ignoring SL; there's plenty going on, both in stuff behind the scenes, like trying to fix region-crossings, and in the new work they're doing on materials and so forth.   Personally, I thought pathfinding was a bit of a waste of time (though I said that about mesh, too), but they've done that, and keyframed motion is getting established.   I don't really see any evidence that SL is being starved of resources to fund the other projects.

I dunno.  While I've certainly got reservations about some stuff he's doing, I equally certainly think Rodvik gets what SL's about far more than did his predecessors; M didn't get it at all, and even the Sainted Phillip Rosedale a lot of the time seemed more interested in His World, His Imagination than in what residents might want to do (as an Adult Content creator, I will never forget that shipping us off to Zindra was his idea, almost the last announcement he made before leaving the first time, and it was M who implemented the idea and Rodivk who's just about fixed the damage his two predecessors did).

Certainly, on the (admittedly short) track record, I think that looking for someone who'd probably never heard of "the Tau of Linden" to run the show for a while was probably one of the smartest things the board ever did.

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Rod/CTL/"they" are most definitely ignoring the Marketplace by all appearances and that is what this thread is about.  It *is* refreshing to hear someone else think that pathfinding and mesh was not really needed (although it sounds like you may have changed your mind there) - so we agree on that.  Once I read the article to which I referred, I became even more convinced they were put into SL for other purposes than to simply "enhance" SL.  Mesh especially has not contributed to the "shared experience" that LL likes to use when decrying TPVs.

ETA:  I recently read the dress policy of a well-known SL club and it now states that any mesh which will render an avatar partially nude on non-mesh viewers is not permitted to be worn in the club. Interesting.

I was never a fan of M. Linden either.  IMO the CEOs are getting worse with each succession.  What I'd love to know, and could probably dig around the net and find it somewhere, is if Philip is the major shareholder of LL.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

How much do you think we need to raise?

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One foot to buttocks level.

Seriously though, I prefer to keep crowd funding to a small group of people that need it to get a business going, otherwise a charity will scratch that giving itch.

On the other hand, as in all commerce or companies claiming profits of $75 million, you just expect it to work to a reasonable standard that is the rest of the online consumer/seller experience.

Or at least half as well as a WoW or Diablo III auction house. Or content sales sites like Turbosquid and friends.

Amazon may be reaching, but one can dream a Phil dream and say that there shouldn't be any reason not to launch a solid business in these days of cloud hosting and services on a smaller budget.

At some point you just expect that a company can handle what it took upon itself to handle. That's why we give them money in the first place, after all. And time. And content. Lots and lots of content.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Couldbe Yue wrote:

 

I don't think either M or Rod actually get us saddos who actually have moved in, settled down and created lives in here (even if it's only a business life) and I don't think that either of them (certainly M didn't) take us seriously as they either ignore us or give us the impression that we get in the way of their grandiose plans.

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And this is my fear where SL is concerned, and likely that of others of us who see SL more as an online "home" than "game" - Rod shut down Sims Online.  I have no idea if he had the sole authority to do that or if he was acting on the wishes of the stockholders, but with him at the helm and reading about his goals in the referenced article, I have to wonder if Rod is securing his position within the gaming arena with his new projects and will close SL when/if they become successful.

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Couldbe Yue wrote:

 

The comment about laughing in that article I take as a deliberate insult. 

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Exactly!!

 

 

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Couldbe Yue wrote:

 

... changing the subject completely, has anyone heard from Dart?  he hasn't been on here for 3 weeks.

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...or Josh.  Anyone see Josh lately??

 

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

How much do you think we need to raise?

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One foot to buttocks level.

Seriously though, I prefer to keep crowd funding to a small group of people that need it to get a business going, otherwise a charity will scratch that giving itch.

On the other hand, as in all commerce or companies claiming profits of $75 million, you just expect it to work to a reasonable standard that is the rest of the online consumer/seller experience.

Or at least half as well as a WoW or Diablo III auction house. Or content sales sites like Turbosquid and friends.

Amazon may be reaching, but one can dream a Phil dream and say that there shouldn't be any reason not to launch a solid business in these days of cloud hosting and services on a smaller budget.

At some point you just expect that a company can handle what it took upon itself to handle. That's why we give them money in the first place, after all. And time. And content. Lots and lots of content.

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To my mind, a significant difference, though, between the SL Marketplace and something like Turbosquid is that selling on the Marketplace costs a tiny fraction of what it costs to sell on Turbosquid (unless I'm misunderstanding the fee structure at http://www.turbosquid.com/PublishYourStuff).   WoW or Diablo II I'm not familar with, but I think with Turbsquid you get what you pay for, and I am not sure how many SL merchants (or customers) would be prepared to pay Turbsoquid prices.  

 

[Dartagan Shepherd]

The marketplace being "free" does bring up a good point, but it's a two sided thing. For someone that doesn't pay anything into SL, it's free upfront, granted. And the commission, agreed ... it's very reasonable compared to content sales sites (although not very good compared to some real goods sites).

On the other hand, all the free aspects of SL come from people paying into the system, right? If you're familiar with game monetization you know that whales are the people who pay most into the system, minnows less until you get to people who pay nothing.

Merchants are content contributors, which gives them that ownership or whale expectations as well. If you're a whale you don't really care that the Marketplace is free or not, you're paying money or valuable content into SL. You expect everything to work. Not just the marketplace.

I know when I was paying out that monthly estate money before I abandoned it on principle that I felt when something completely unrelated to land didn't work, like group chat, my first thought is "what am I paying money to this company for ... the product doesn't work". The principles I abandoned that land on were precisely because of non land things and business practices of the company.

If you notice, there are much higher expectations among the "whales". If you're familiar with game monetization you know whales are the ones that pay into the system the most.

So the whales actually are paying for the Marketplace, as are the people making the content that LL monetizes. As are the people that purchased virtual money for real dollars to buy the content.

The only person the marketplace is free to, is someone that doesn't pay anything at all into SL. Everyone else foots part of its bill. All of LL's money comes from our pockets in one way or another, and that includes Marketplace development.

The marketplace may be a sub product internally to LL, but SL in general is one product. It's either a good product overall or it's not. If part of that product isn't good it reflects on the entire product.

It gets strange because someone that lives completely free in SL, never spends or buys may not care about any of this. Others may feel by their contributions that they're entitled to much more.

Most of us do pay for the Marketplace though in one way or another, it's part of the product that is SL. I'm not sure why some people insist on thinking of it as a separate entity or that it needs separate funding, etc.

Even if I hadn't blown tens of thousands here, or paid tier, or had premium memberships and had just made content for SL, and I knew that the company knew some people relied on this to make a living, I'd have the same expectations of a quality buyer/seller environment and software, trust with funds, professional behavior.

If it were strictly a game, I might have a different view and just play or not play or spend game tokens or not spend game tokens. But it's not just a game and game money for everyone paying into it. And yet it doesn't play by the same rules as the rest of real world and internet commerce.

LL used to say challenge us, we love even the most critical feedback, that's how we grow. They don't say that or grow any longer, I wonder if the two are related.

[Darrius Gothly]

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Porky Gorky wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

How much do you think we need to raise?  

Over at SLU

, a very respected member of the community who works on such systems in RL put the cost, as a ball-park figure, in the range of a quarter to half a million dollars. 

---

Don't go listening to those noobs over at SLU, they talk nonsense. We can just get Darrius to do it all, I've heard he would do anything for 6 pack of bud and a cheeky cuddle :matte-motes-big-grin:

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SO NOT TRUE!!!

Six-pack of Pepsi .. and NOW we're talking. LOL

[Czari Zenovka]

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

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Porky Gorky wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

How much do you think we need to raise?  

Over at SLU

, a very respected member of the community who works on such systems in RL put the cost, as a ball-park figure, in the range of a quarter to half a million dollars. 

---

Don't go listening to those noobs over at SLU, they talk nonsense. We can just get Darrius to do it all, I've heard he would do anything for 6 pack of bud and a cheeky cuddle :matte-motes-big-grin:

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SO NOT TRUE!!!

Six-pack of Pepsi .. and NOW we're talking. LOL

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Pepsi for the win!!!!

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

...

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To be fair, I think all he actually committed to was 

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For sure 

we can up the tempo of communiation in blog posts and notifcations to upcoming changes & fixes. We remain commited to our merchant community and I appreciate you taking the time to write down what you would like to see in the future for SL.

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 and that

"We "dont mean the royal we, but either myself or someone form the team) will stop by and let folks know we have read the extra feedback sometime early next week," which

they did

, though not particularly to anyone's satisfaction.

I note he didn't commit to the extent to which he intended to "up the tempo of communication," and since the existing temp was certainly 

Larghissimo, 

that gives him plenty of room for maneuver.   He certainly didn't give me any reason to believe he was promising we'd be pleased with the contents of the communications.

 

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True... so technically Rodvik's lip service token postings a month ago was vague enough to say "we could $$#%@# a bit and we %$^%$^#$" that it was as many of us feared.... a posting with no content in it.  Regardles, his merchant customers clearly perceived his handling of this as empty promised lip services simply to quell the escalating anger on this commerce team's horrid service.

But as even he should have predicted and was even warned (since he did say he and LL does actually read and listen) that if he and LL dont followup then this "quell the anger" tactic would be short lived and only make matters worse.

 

 

What I dont understand is why LL does not outsource the Marketplace to a team with the skills and passion and drive / innovation to properly run the Marketplace?  Its clear his team does not have any skills in any aspect of running the Marketplace - they are simply trying to fight the growing number of fires and keep the lights on with Marketplace.

If he gave it to a team that knew how to properly run Marketplace - it could mean greater revenue from Marketplace, improved interest on the grid, and removes LL from being the direct target of the largest source of complaints from its customer base.

 

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

What I dont understand is why LL does not outsource the Marketplace to a team with the skills and passion and drive / innovation to properly run the Marketplace?  Its clear his team does not have any skills in any aspect of running the Marketplace - they are simply trying to fight the growing number of fires and keep the lights on with Marketplace.

 

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I realize I'm sounding like a broken record but, especially after reading the interview with Rod, I honestly think LL is just minimally keeping SL alive until the other games get off the ground.  I truly hope I'm wrong about this...but it does explain a lot.

 

[Porky Gorky]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

I realize I'm sounding like a broken record but, especially after reading the interview with Rod, I honestly think LL is just minimally keeping SL alive until the other games get off the ground.  I truly hope I'm wrong about this...but it does explain a lot.

 

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This just sounds like the same old doom and gloom prophesying that has been a part of these forums for as long they have existed. Not a year has gone by in SL where people have not come onto these forums listing all of the reasons why the grid is about to fail and predicting SL's imminent demise.

I remember when Kingdon was fired along with a third of LL's workforce. These forums were rife the self appointed experts predicting SL and LL's downfall, yet here we still are, repeating the same old conversations over and over again.

I think it's best to just wait and see.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Porky Gorky wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

I realize I'm sounding like a broken record but, especially after reading the interview with Rod, I honestly think LL is just minimally keeping SL alive until the other games get off the ground.  I truly hope I'm wrong about this...but it does explain a lot.

 

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This just sounds like the same old doom and gloom prophesying that has been a part of these forums for as long they have existed. Not a year has gone by in SL where people have not come onto these forums listing all of the reasons why the grid is about to fail and predicting SL's imminent demise.

I remember when Kingdon was fired along with a third of LL's workforce. These forums were rife the self appointed experts predicting SL and LL's downfall, yet here we still are, repeating the same old conversations over and over again.

I think it's best to just wait and see.

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I've never been part of the doom and gloom group, but when I read an interview with the CEO of LL who (1) laughed and seemed surprised SL was still around when approached with the offer of becoming CEO and (2) pretty much states that when he took a look at SL and saw  "it was a company that was ready made to do a whole bunch of other products, which I wanted to do,” it's not in the realm of tinfoil hats that SL may be ditched at worst, nor the reason SL issues are being put on the backburner at best.

I've been around these forums awhile too Porky.

 

[Porky Gorky]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

(1) laughed and seemed surprised SL was still around when approached with the offer of becoming CEO and (2) pretty much states that when he took a look at SL and saw  "it was a company that was ready made to do a whole bunch of other products, which I wanted to do,” it's not in the realm of tinfoil hats that SL may be ditched at worst, nor the reason SL issues are being put on the backburner at best.

 

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These are just off handed comments Rod made in an interview. They should not be taken seriously, literally or any other way.

I posted a link a few pages back to a comment Rod made on a blog post recently.

http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/rod-humble-talks-up-new-products-creativity-and-second-life/#comment-11199

 

From the 16th Oct

"Rod says - Hey thanks for the write up. For sure our commitment to Second Life remains key and central to our company. When I talk about shared creative spaces I put virtual worlds right in that.

My comment about also investing in virtual worlds is correct. As you know I don't like to detail things until we are close to something actionable, but we absolutely are investing in the large virtual world space which I think will make Second Life users, business owners and developers very happy…. but its a ways off "

 

So based on this off handed comment that Rod made, do you now think SL has a bright and rosy future? 

The only people that really know if SL is in serious trouble or close to going under are the people with access to all the facts i.e. the management of the company. Anyone else who chooses to make predictions without knowing all the facts is destined to get it wrong, as many have done so before you. Sure you may be the lucky one that predicts correctly this time, but chances are you won't, chances are you will just help add fuel to the negativity that surrounds SL and help perpetuate the idea that the platform is in dire straits or on the verge of closing. Such rumours and speculation does nothing to improve customer retention or ease the concerns of those residents looking to invest money into the world be it through membership, tier/land purchase or buying content. 

[CommerceTeam Linden]

Thanks for your continued feedback. We have posted an update here.

The Commerce Team

[Toysoldier Thor]

For those that dont want to click to the link (which is a read only thread anyway that does not allow comments to the posting)...

 

Merchants,

Thank you for your continued feedback. Following is an update regarding your latest questions and requests:

• Direct Delivery email notifying merchants receipt of item by customer: We understand your request and are looking into this.
• Marketplace category changes: We’re working on some proposed updates to these categories and will give you the opportunity to provide input. Stay tuned for more details - including a survey.
• JIRA changes: We are working to adjust our communications practices to make sure all Merchants are kept up-to-date on bug fixes.
• Marketplace weekly user group: We will not be adding a user group at this time.
• Publish Marketplace six-month backlog: There are no plans to provide this data.

In addition, we are evaluating ways to improve communications practices with Merchants that will allow us to address technical and support issues more effectively. This includes direct email correspondence, such as the direct email that was sent November 6, 2012 to let all Merchants know about the benefits of Direct Delivery.

We appreciate your patience while we continue to improve marketplace functionality and merchant communications.

The Commerce Team

 

As for the responses:

• Good that they are actually looking into ONE of our requested features for DD (but lets see if/when this feature shows up as there are still bugs in DD that have not been resolved in DD several months after it went live).  The famous LL Commerce Team of "we are looking into this" ended this point which we all know where that ends up.
• JIRA Changes.  Hmmmmm..... wouldnt it be nice of Rodvik had a change of heart and actually is listening to his customers (not to mention the several LL staff that internally complained about the policy to gag the Resident Jira).  But since this response was vague and non-commiting... <shurgs>
• As for Commerce Team wanting to improve communications with its merchants....  seems they are afraid of us as they have rejected the User Group meeting.  <close that opportunity>
• Again... for Commerce Team wanting to be more transparent and open and communicating with its Merchants / Customers....  Rejected the idea of at least telling us what they are working on.  <close that opportunity>
• FINALLY... regarding the email to all merchants on the "please switch to DD" email.....    I assumed that as a merchant that fully migrated to DD, that was the reason I didnt get an email from Commerce Team.  Now it sounds like they sent out a mass mailing to all merchants and once again... not an email I got.  I even have to ask the question, where did they even get a MERCHANTS CONTACT EMAIL list from?  I was never asked to "please register as a LL Merchant".  So I dont even know how they created this list?
  
  If they are not comfortable posting in the SL Merchant Forums.... and they want to use an emailing method to communicate with all Merchants, they should set up a Merchant Contact Registration system so that Merchants can provide their email address.

Generally.... not an impressive response as not much was really said in this posting with any positive / commiting responses.

 

[Butch Daddy]

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Way-to-go-Commerce-Team/td-p/1725297

 

"Dear Marketplace Merchant,

You are receiving this email because you have at least one listing on the Second Life Marketplace that still uses an outdated delivery process, known as Magic Boxes."

 

If you have already migrated why would you want spam from Linden Lab talking about migrating? 

[Porky Gorky]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

• FINALLY... regarding the email to all merchants on the "please switch to DD" email.....    I assumed that as a merchant that fully migrated to DD, that was the reason I didnt get an email from Commerce Team.  Now it sounds like they sent out a mass mailing to all merchants and once again... not an email I got.  I even have to ask the question, where did they even get a MERCHANTS CONTACT EMAIL list from?  I was never asked to "please register as a LL Merchant".  So I dont even know how they created this list?
   
   

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I sell content via 4 different Av's on the MP. All of them have some items still delivering via MB. Only 2 of my accounts got the email from CTL. So however they went about building this merchant mailing list, they are definitely not reaching out to all merchants.

[Darrius Gothly]

@CTL - What I "heard" from your post:

• We aren't going to tell you what we plan to do
• We aren't going to listen to what you want us to do
• We might let you know if we fix something
• We might let you know if you sell something

Summary: (Momma taught me not to say such words in public)