Not mentioning Land Impact on marketplace, ok or not?

[Czari Zenovka]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Not to note such a huge discrepancy between prim count and land impact is dishonest in my opinion.  There is no way the seller was not aware of that.  They can easily say LI is 111 as purchased but may change if sized, modified. But he probably figured he'd sell more trains at 11 prims than at 111 LI.

If LL wants mesh adapted faster by the general public they are going to not only have to do a better job educating people but provide the tools, in this case a REQUIRED field to enter LI on MP, to help consumers judge if a mesh object would work for them.  Unless a consumer took the time to research it themselves most have no idea what land impact is and how it effects them, and its no wonder as LL has typically not communicated this important information to the general public.

It is things like this that are making the average person shy away from mesh.

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BINGO!!!!

[Czari Zenovka]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

All of the above are reasons why I am of the opinion we should all be boycotting Mesh till Linden Lab gets it's act together and does it right!

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Yeeaaaa!!! I'm not alone!

[Ceka Cianci]

if i have to AR something on the market..i used shared media on a prim in world with that page loaded on the browser on the prim..

this way i get a good linden lab screenshot of the marketplace add..and can just use the inworld  AR system then as well...

 

 

[Drongle McMahon]

I'm not a regular marketplace user, but I thought I would have a look at what trains there were on the MP. So I searched fot "train". Errm...... Is the marketplace search always that useless?

[MoiselleErin Teardrop]

But, But, but, mesh is the truth, the life, and the way! It is perfect in every way!

 

When the F*** are SL'ers going to realize that the new advances and even the old ones are not going to make the lag and prim issue vanish?

many ways to save prims out there but each has a cost.

Want to use an Alpha layer on a fancy texture? GREAT, less prims but the overshadowing with other alphas looks ridiculous.

Want to use mesh? You better very well know what you are doing, and keep in mind that you are completely blocking out the sector of SL who CANNOT use mesh (like if our computers won't run V3) Plus it may not cut down on prim counts.With clothing, is it REALLY necessary to have mesh for clothes when sculpts work well? I will say this - I have completely quit going to certain shops (and not spending money there) cause all their new stuff is mesh. I cannot use or see it so their mesh crap is completely useless to me.

 

Want to use sculpts? Good luck trying to texture THAT unless you really know what you are doing with a GOOD graphics program. Oh and what about that box around it? Oh yeah just make it phantom, and then you just need a rezzer script.

 

Maybe I am in the stone age but honestly - the standard prim is still the best comprimise of everything.

I understand sculpts ARE needed at times. I have used and made them myself.

 

However, people care about only ONE thing it seems - prim count. The hidden lag from scripts, awkward shapes and textures etc, well none of that seems to matter now DOES it?

 

 

 

[Dilbert Dilweg]

Sure and one can also argue the consuner was well aware of the land impact issue and only seen a prim count and purchased a mesh product anyway. Shouldnt this user according to their previous posts have a sense of knowledge due to experience in these forums and in world too before purchasing a mesh item? lol

[ImaTest1488314069]

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Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

Sure and one can also argue the consuner was well aware of the land impact issue and only seen a prim count and purchased a mesh product anyway. Shouldnt this user according to their previous posts have a sense of knowledge due to experience in these forums and in world too before purchasing a mesh item? lol

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Did you actually read the post before making this stupid statement? How could the person know the LI based on the listing. Obviously this person has knowledge, she's not a nitwit. But she also can't read minds. If a seller doesn't disclose how is a consumer to know? I think you're making things up as you go along now, lol.

The onus, in this instance, and many like it, remains on the merchant. Yes it's our responsible to be aware when buying things, but if sellers are not honest, it's no longer our fault. This seller deserves to be ARd for this crap, and any seller like them. Too many try to play the ignorance card. We see regular old consumers like you and me constantly being told buyer beware, you get what you pay for and such. Why can't it also be merchant beware too? Why are the rules different for merchants? Why is it ok to let them be dishonest and let them pretend they have no clue, when you're not willing to allow consumers to not understand. If anyone(and that's a big if) should be allowed wiggle room from time to time for ignorance it would be a consumer and not a merchant. I expect people making stuff to know how their stuff works.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

Sure and one can also argue the consuner was well aware of the land impact issue and only seen a prim count and purchased a mesh product anyway.

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No one cannot argue that, because the consumer is not the empowered actor.

Implied warranties of mechantability and truth in advertising in any product one sells - burden is on seller to represent their products truthfully and deliver an item that will perform as claimed.

The victim is not the liable party when a con-man sells them snake oil.

 

A consumer has a duty to stay informed about what they're doing within reason. But they've no duty to be able to see through lies and deception, nor a duty to be more informed than the seller as to what the product actually is.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

LOL 6 years in world here and had no idea that land impact was prim equivalence till I started making mesh and optimizing it for LI 3 months ago lol. Yea call me a bonehead. or what ever lol.

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Hey, you're ahead of me.

  To begin with, my computer won't run the viewers that "see" mesh (don't ask); therefore, I'm seeing some really odd things in SL lately - especially in clothes.

I personally see no reason for mesh (which I have seen echoed in several posts).  To me it's the "next cool thing to jump on" whether it's actually useful or not.

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If you could see mesh, and tried some mesh items out, you'd be more prepared to see why it is of such geat value. Or at the least, make an informed statement about it not being an advance. As for sculpty confusion - LOD issues still abound; which is not a valid arument for doing away with Sculpty. Likewise, facelights and default lighting still exist, which is no excuse for doing away with Windlight.

 

After using mesh, I no longer buy pre-mesh clothing. Its just not as good in performance or appearance. I've been working to replace furniture, buildings, and vehicles with mesh items as well. They hold textures much better, have crisper edges, and often come in at much lower land impacts -when done right-. They also burden my system less. I get higher FPS the more mesh and less sculpty is around me.

 

Sculpty is a gimmick: its a texture map, that the system then reads the values of and uses that to move a preset number of vertixes to specific locations. The number of vertixes present is always the same no matter how detailed or undetailed the item. This results is warp-points where too many vertixes cluster, or not enough are present to define a curve or angle properly. The same results in extreme comlexity is creating the UV map for texturing - which itself must be made as all one face, one map, resulting in a loss of available detail. They also have bounding boxes that are somewhat arbitrary - resulting in spots where you poke through or float above. Mesh lets the object itself be the bounding box, or a custom made bounding box - it will be solid right where the maker told it to be.

SL really should have gone prim -> mesh, skipping sculpty. But we have sculpty, and its got too much legacy. Not enough end-user systems were ready for mesh back when sculpty came around (though MOST of them are ready now). So despite how burdensome it is on SL's engine; sculpty is here to stay.

 

[Knutz Scorpio]

A big reason I tend not to buy something from Marketplace if I can't see it in world first where I can right click edit it to see what its real LI is.  Too many creators couldn't care less about optimizing their mesh models.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Knutz Scorpio wrote:

A big reason I tend not to buy something from Marketplace if I can't see it in world first where I can right click edit it to see what its real LI is.  Too many creators couldn't care less about optimizing their mesh models.

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- WORD.

I'm getting a bit jumbled here because we seem to be discussion very similar topics in two threads right now. But this is becomming very critical with vehicles.

Mind you I feel similar for sculpty items. For both I want to be able to look at a rezzed copy and see what it looks like and how it performs.

And this isn't just about finding the maker's flaws. Often you can find great selling points they didn't cover. Merchants with demoes / rezzed copies have GAINED more sales from me than lost them as a result of me seeing there in my viewer, camming around it, and clicking all the clickies.

Doubly so for worn items - clothing and such. Countless times in a shop, I'm looking at one thing, see a demo for something else and since its a free demo I just grab it, put it on, and end up buying the full product after liking the look.

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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MoiselleErin Teardrop wrote:

But, But, but, mesh is the truth, the life, and the way! It is perfect in every way!

 

When the F*** are SL'ers going to realize that the new advances and even the old ones are not going to make the lag and prim issue vanish?

many ways to save prims out there but each has a cost.

Want to use an Alpha layer on a fancy texture? GREAT, less prims but the overshadowing with other alphas looks ridiculous.

Want to use mesh? You better very well know what you are doing, and keep in mind that you are completely blocking out the sector of SL who CANNOT use mesh (like if our computers won't run V3) Plus it may not cut down on prim counts.With clothing, is it REALLY necessary to have mesh for clothes when sculpts work well? I will say this - I have completely quit going to certain shops (and not spending money there) cause all their new stuff is mesh. I cannot use or see it so their mesh crap is completely useless to me.

 

Want to use sculpts? Good luck trying to texture THAT unless you really know what you are doing with a GOOD graphics program. Oh and what about that box around it? Oh yeah just make it phantom, and then you just need a rezzer script.

 

Maybe I am in the stone age but honestly - the standard prim is still the best comprimise of everything.

I understand sculpts ARE needed at times. I have used and made them myself.

 

However, people care about only ONE thing it seems - prim count. The hidden lag from scripts, awkward shapes and textures etc, well none of that seems to matter now DOES it?

 

 

 

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I feel like framing this post!!!  After 4 months of being basically told I'm living in the stone age because I own a PC that can't run the viewers needed for the MP Direct Delivery system (the implementation of which may not be the causal factor but it sure unearthed a lot of MP issues) - nevermind there are valid reasons why I and others cannot at present do so, then not being able to see mesh - not that I mind, it has caused some amusing moments in people watching - it is refreshing to see that I'm not the lone voice crying in the SL forum wilderness.

Preach it, Sister!!!

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

LOL 6 years in world here and had no idea that land impact was prim equivalence till I started making mesh and optimizing it for LI 3 months ago lol. Yea call me a bonehead. or what ever lol.

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Hey, you're ahead of me.

  To begin with, my computer won't run the viewers that "see" mesh (don't ask); therefore, I'm seeing some really odd things in SL lately - especially in clothes.

I personally see no reason for mesh (which I have seen echoed in several posts).  To me it's the "next cool thing to jump on" whether it's actually useful or not.

---

If you could see mesh, and tried some mesh items out, you'd be more prepared to see why it is of such geat value. Or at the least, make an informed statement about it not being an advance. As for sculpty confusion - LOD issues still abound; which is not a valid arument for doing away with Sculpty. Likewise, facelights and default lighting still exist, which is no excuse for doing away with Windlight.

 

After using mesh, I no longer buy pre-mesh clothing. Its just not as good in performance or appearance. I've been working to replace furniture, buildings, and vehicles with mesh items as well. They hold textures much better, have crisper edges, and often come in at much lower land impacts -when done right-. They also burden my system less. I get higher FPS the more mesh and less sculpty is around me.

 

Sculpty is a gimmick: its a texture map, that the system then reads the values of and uses that to move a preset number of vertixes to specific locations. The number of vertixes present is always the same no matter how detailed or undetailed the item. This results is warp-points where too many vertixes cluster, or not enough are present to define a curve or angle properly. The same results in extreme comlexity is creating the UV map for texturing - which itself must be made as all one face, one map, resulting in a loss of available detail. They also have bounding boxes that are somewhat arbitrary - resulting in spots where you poke through or float above. Mesh lets the object itself be the bounding box, or a custom made bounding box - it will be solid right where the maker told it to be.

SL really should have gone prim -> mesh, skipping sculpty. But we have sculpty, and its got too much legacy. Not enough end-user systems were ready for mesh back when sculpty came around (though MOST of them are ready now). So despite how burdensome it is on SL's engine; sculpty is here to stay.

 

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I have seen mesh via a good friend taking photos to show me various mesh items.  You have your opinion, I have mine - they are both valid, eh?

I restate I will not buy mesh products...and I think a couple other posters on this thread have said the same thing.

As a builder I understand sculpties and textures, but thanks for the lecture.

[Maryanne Solo]

The only way to protect consumers and educate shop owners is to have compulsory submission forms where all the information fields are mandatory before the item can be listed.

That's not going to happen unfortunately. This is the topical issue in all worlds where users make stuffs the only difference being here you have to pay real money for it.

Thousands upon thousands of poorly paid factory workers on forgotten sims are struggling just to afford enough food inworld let alone knowing about things like land impact of the goods they are churning out.

It's really up to business owners to make sure their products are as efficient as possible and provide the relevant & correct information to the public who can't be expected to be experts on these issues and the labs to put strict quality control measures in place.   

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

 

The consumer is responsible for knowing it changes when they mod it. But a nicer builder can just state that in the description.

 

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In most cases I agree with this statement EXCEPT when it comes to mesh.  LL has not communicated to the general user anything about Land Impact.  If you go into the knowledge base, which half the casual users don't know exists or how to use it properly, and type in land impact, there is ONE VERY TECHNICAL article about it that is aimed at creators that is guaranteed to put any casual user to sleep.  No simple explanations for consumers no warning about how scripts effect mesh..  Yeah maybe there have been a few bloggers out there that explained it better for the consumer but seriously, how many casual users hunt down blogs to read or even read this forum?.  A very small percentage.  And why should a casual user that uses SL a few hours a few days a week for entertainment have to spend hours tracking down blogs and then finding the ones that have explanations they can understand?

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

I have seen mesh via a good friend taking photos to show me various mesh items.  You have your opinion, I have mine - they are both valid, eh?

 

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To have an opinion requires informed awareness.

Only opinions backed by experience or evidence are valid.

If you try mesh, see it inworld, and then reject it - that's a valid opinion.

Its one I could disagree with, but still find valid, unless it also called for taking away mesh from those who do enjoy it.

 

Wiser to reserve judgment until able to form a valid opinion from experience. Such as once one has a computer capable of viewing and interracting with mesh. Don't be too stuck in the mud over this.

I started out rejecting mesh - until I'd tried it. I find its better in life to try a thing or examine a thing before I judge it. I forget to do that at times - which can leave me backtracking on a stance I'd made. But its important to not draw a conclusion until you sample it for yourself. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Maryanne Solo wrote:

The only way to protect consumers and educate shop owners is to have compulsory submission forms where all the information fields are mandatory before the item can be listed.

That's not going to happen unfortunately.

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Sadly HTML wise, it is about 10 minutes of work to change out the code to made it so that fields are required to be filled in.

- Something I've done many times.

Minor validity checking, a little more work. Maybe 20 minutes top. Just to make sure things are entered in a format that can be understood, not actual accuracy like if they put in the right number - but that they put in -some- number.

(checking to see if they did the right number on the other hand, would be an insanely complicated and/or server slowdown database issue.)

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

I have seen mesh via a good friend taking photos to show me various mesh items.  You have your opinion, I have mine - they are both valid, eh?

 

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To have an opinion requires informed awareness.

Only opinions backed by experience or evidence are valid.

If you try mesh, see it inworld, and then reject it - that's a valid opinion.

Its one I could disagree with, but still find valid, unless it also called for taking away mesh from those who do enjoy it.

 

Wiser to reserve judgment until able to form a valid opinion from experience. Such as once one has a computer capable of viewing and interracting with mesh. Don't be too stuck in the mud over this.

I started out rejecting mesh - until I'd tried it. I find its better in life to try a thing or examine a thing before I judge it. I forget to do that at times - which can leave me backtracking on a stance I'd made. But its important to not draw a conclusion until you sample it for yourself. 

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Good point.  I'll get my new PC, put on some mesh clothing, rez a piece of mesh furniture, then continue boycotting mesh.  Yes, I'm stubborn. *Grins*