Is it against TOS to pass out landmarks?

[Cortland Swindlehurst]

I'm trying to promote a new business and thought I'd pass out some lm's when I happened to be in a infohub.

So I do..

And right away like 2 secs later guy ims "muted and reported."

So I'm like for what, and he says "you should have read the tos."

I've been in and out of SL (on my main) for 5 or 6 years.  I've never been reported for anything.  I get passed random lm's, never ocurred to me to turn into a jerk about it.

If someone hands you a leaflet in real life, do you scream "muted and reported!!!!"?

Why can't people be nice and chill out?  That's how SL was in the old days.

If it is against the TOS I guess I can understand it but you know what -- I've never "reported" anyone ever, nor will I ever.  If one has to report people in the hobby one is involved in, then one should find something else to do that's my opinion.  It's bad karma.. what if real society were like this.  Give me a break, does linden have time to go through all these?

So I guess I'm reported, 5 years my first report.  For passing out a landmark what do they do, surely not suspension?

 

 

[161488303349]

you not allowed to sell/promote stuff at the WAs. random giving LMs/notecards/group invites is considered promoting

eta: the reason is bc when linden dont enforce it then the places fill up with spam bots

[Cortland Swindlehurst]

Well that makes sense.. but I'd engaged in local chat a bit first, the lm passing was a whim, it was clear I wasn't a bot.

Is it okay to pass out LM's in other places, other than infohubs?  (I don't think I will anyway now I don't want to annoy people)

What happens when you get reported for this?

Should I use an alt for the business I'm helping?  I don't ever want my account suspended, that's 6 years of inventory gone, all my pictures things I've built, who knows how much money worth of stuff, on and on.

So if an alt gets suspended to do they suspend the main too?  

 

 

[Griffin Ceawlin]

---

Cortland Swindlehurst wrote:

Is it okay to pass out LM's in other places, other than infohubs?  (I don't think I will anyway now I don't want to annoy people)

---

Don't. It will.

 

---

So if an alt gets suspended to do they suspend the main too?

---

Yes, and vice versa.

 

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I wouldn't worry too much about getting suspended.  That is such a low level "violation" it will go to the huge pile of other AR's that people file all the time........and, no, LL does not have the time to sort through that junk (that's a big reason for the perception that many have about LL not following through with legitamate AR's.....having to deal with tripe like that). 

Giving out landmarks is not against the ToS except at Info Hubs (for the reason 16 pointed out)........it could be considered annoying and possiblly harrassment if it were a case of spamming using the LM's.  But giving landmarks out is a popular way to promoting businesses in SL.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Giving out landmarks to a business and information about it, even if just in IM, is considered soliciting or spamming in a lot of privately owned public places.  It is even not considered a good form to do it is IM. The exception being if you are there with people you know already and and it is done in the normal course of communication with them or your business is participating or sponsoring an event. People don't liked to be solicited or spammed like this as it is annoying to most people and many will report you to the venue owner or the staff who will eject you and ban you without warning. It was one of the biggest complaints i got from my patrons when I have owned public venues. 

I personally consider it annoying to receive unsolicited spam like this and I always just ignore it.  I probably would not patronize your business as a result either.  So not only is it not effective, it may even damage your business.    There are much more effective ways of advertising.

 

[Cortland Swindlehurst]

It's that island in the Blake Sea.  I'm not a spammer, I was just riding my boat and stopped by there like I always do.  I only handed out 7 LMs.

The guy that reported me, I get off my boat and he says "are you female?"  I'm a man, but I have long hair, though my swimming trunks and bare chest should leave no doubt about that.  Now I think about it, I guess he just trolls that place ready to hit report button for anything, why else does he care if I'm male or female.

Is it against TOS for a man to be shirtless on an island in the Blake Sea?

Anyhow I did change clothes straight after landing and because I'm a nice person I just said "I'm male."

Then I hung around like I always do and on a whim passed out those lm's.  SINCE HE ENGAGED ME IN LOCAL CONVO FIRST, how did I spam him?  He said someting weird / rude to me to begin with, I brushed it off and shared a LM with him.  Then he reports me.  

I really dislike infohubs by the way, I didn't even think about this being one it's just one of those islands in the Blake.

(can anyone tell me what happens next, like in 3 months will Linden send me an email or IM?  Now I've got to watch that email which I normally don't.  I'm assuming here I'll get a warning email, but if there's any chance of suspension while it's looked into or whatever, or if they just see "spammer" and click suspend I need to know that) 

 

 

[Griffin Ceawlin]

---

Cortland Swindlehurst wrote:(can anyone tell me what happens next, like in 3 months will Linden send me an email or IM?  Now I've got to watch that email which I normally don't.  I'm assuming here I'll get a warning email, but if there's any chance of suspension while it's looked into or whatever, or if they just see "spammer" and click suspend I need to know that) 

---

I don't anything will happen.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

They could suspend you.......but I doubt it.  It's a little more likely that you may get a warning (but, even then, I doubt it).  Now if you had actually spammed someone (or a group) by repeatedly giving out the LM's you probably should worry a little.  But you say you did not, so I say don't worry about it.  Giving a single LM to a single person (or even just a few people) is not, at all, unlike IM'ing someone without first asking if you can IM them......that is annoying too (I actually don't like that more than if someone passes me a LM......it's easier for me to decline the LM than to ignore an IM).  It's not against the ToS and not AR'able to IM someone (unless, of course, it's a harassing IM).  What you did could be viewed as some sort spamming though I don't think LL will think of it that way.......especially when they look at the logs about inventory transfered to the person reporting you (and, before they suspend or ban, they will review the logs).

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Sounds like the guy was just out looking for trouble, and as others have said, unless you were in a WA or infohub, it isn't against TOS on public Linden land.

My post was just a warning not to go to a club or other place like that and start handing out landmarks and information..

However, if I am in public and you passed by and we had a conversation I still wouldn't want to be hit up with landmarks and such unless it was a natural part of the overall conversation by way of you mentioning you have a business first to see if I am interested after some general friendly small talk  Then I would prefer that you ask me if i'd like to have them first.  That way it gives me a choice and if I accept, i will generally go by sometime to check it out.  BTW, i don't like people dumping anything on me out of the blue and always discard it unless your a good friend. My friends will sometimes send me stuff like this because they know me and know I might be interested.

[Cortland Swindlehurst]

No I didn't do repeated lm's.  What I thought of doing was just talk to people, have convos, friendly chat.. ask if they or anyone they know may like my business.  But I was shy so just passed the LM's.  It was only 7 LMs, 7 different people.

Broadening the topic..

Report feature should go BOTH WAYS.  

REPORTING itself is done as harassment, let's be honest here.  People do this for lols.  The person who is reported should have the right to open their own ticket, and get resolution.

He knew I wasn't a spam bot, he said something rude in the first place and I answered nicely.  But I can't report him for being weird and rude asking my gender, now can I?  (there's no doubt about my gender by the way, I don't know what he was thinking he probably wanted to report a woman who had no shirt on but I'm clearly a man).

Bottom line, he should have said in local or IM that's against TOS, and I would have said sorry.  It's the rudeness that got me irked, SL used to be a nice place now it's all mean-spirited lols.    

 

 

 

[Kenbro Utu]

---

Cortland Swindlehurst wrote:

If someone hands you a leaflet in real life, do you scream "muted and reported!!!!"?

 

---

There is a difference.  In RL a person may hold a leaflet out towards you, and gesture or ask if you would like one.  You can take it, gesture or say no, or not even acknowledge them.  In SL giving somone a landmark to a business is more akin to the person taking the leaflet and stuffing it in your hand or pocket.  Just ask next time if they would mind you giving them a landmark to your business.  Give them the opportunity to make the choice. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

While some merchant types think SL is nothing but a selling opportunity. For a vast majority of folks is it a social space.

People don't want to be sold or solicited. If they want something - they will go and seek the info. But they don't want to be spammed.

You are better off just dropping this one - you sounded sympathic yet unaware at the outset, and trying to argue that it was a fine thing to do is boxing you into a corner.

 

The person reporting you might be a jerk or annoying or whatever - that doesn't excuse misconduct. The old rule 'two wrongs don't make a right' is apt. If they were harrassing, then they should be reported - but consider that filing a 'counter report' doesn't tend to help one's case; but make one look vindictive.

If you go to an infohib, chat all you want, but don't play salesperson.

I -have- handed out notecards in infohubs before. Mostly cards on how to do things in SL, never adverts. Some of them did include LMs to some commercial spots. But it really wasn't a productive activity - and I probably have been reported over it without ever finding out.

Its not really something I do anymore. Not worth the bother.

Better ways to promote oneself - get a good profile, put a good description on your products in marketplace, your land info for your shop, your Picks, and in blog articles. Post up regular screenshots of new products to flickr, plurk, and my.secondlife.com. Join hunts.

- Get involved in communities on a non-commercial basis, so people know you.

 

But don't go selling random strangers in social venues. Its just not the way to do things.

 

[161488303349]

---

Cortland Swindlehurst wrote:

It's that island in the Blake Sea.  I'm not a spammer, I was just riding my boat and stopped by there like I always do.  I only handed out 7 LMs.

The guy that reported me, I get off my boat and he says "are you female?"  I'm a man, but I have long hair, though my swimming trunks and bare chest should leave no doubt about that.  Now I think about it, I guess he just trolls that place ready to hit report button for anything, why else does he care if I'm male or female.

Is it against TOS for a man to be shirtless on an island in the Blake Sea?

Anyhow I did change clothes straight after landing and because I'm a nice person I just said "I'm male."

Then I hung around like I always do and on a whim passed out those lm's.  SINCE HE ENGAGED ME IN LOCAL CONVO FIRST, how did I spam him?  He said someting weird / rude to me to begin with, I brushed it off and shared a LM with him.  Then he reports me.  

I really dislike infohubs by the way, I didn't even think about this being one it's just one of those islands in the Blake.

(can anyone tell me what happens next, like in 3 months will Linden send me an email or IM?  Now I've got to watch that email which I normally don't.  I'm assuming here I'll get a warning email, but if there's any chance of suspension while it's looked into or whatever, or if they just see "spammer" and click suspend I need to know that) 

 

 

---

the island in the Blake Sea is Barbarossa. is a linden WA/infohub. is M rated so is ok to be shirtless

dont worry about. you will be ok i think. only time you not ok is if you keep coming back other times and still dropping LMs on people at the WAs after you know what is the rules. linden pretty lenient like that

+

that guy was just being a jerk by the sounds of it. after he IM you and then find out he not going to get any booty off you. some people just go off like that

+

WAs not all bad. is some good people go to them as well

+

if wants to promote your business then do the normal ways. buy classified ads. make a group.  make events for your place and put in the Events search. particpate in forums with your business sig on the bottom. stuff like that

also if you got a free or group gift board then people like me who not have any vested interest in any shop or business will learn about you after a time. i know all kinds of places that have good stuff for new people. when i find them or learn about them then i put in my shopping folder or building or helpy places. depending on what it is

for business owners i try encourage them to make group gifts only. that way new people will join your group and you can know about them.

also when they join your group then it can help them to remember. lots of new people go to heaps and heaps of places in the first few weeks. they cant remember them all in their head. so the group memberships help them with that

after a time some of them will go cool i like sl and put their money in. when they do then some of them remember who was kind to them and go back and buy some stuff off you

 

[Cortland Swindlehurst]

Yes I can see now I was wrong, but TOS never ocurred to me, and like I said I've gotten random lm's for years now I never thought this upset people because it never bothered me.  But everyone is different, and some people enjoy reporting.  

Here's how reporting SHOULD work:

1. Someone reports you, it opens a ticket (but doesn't show their name), and you can see that ticket in your account on the website.

2.  You can go ahead and write your side of it.

3.  When Linden finally gets around to it, they can update the ticket.   

As it is now, I don't even know how this works.  Does anyone know how linden contacts you, do they send you an email?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

Honestly not sure if its a specific ToS violation. More that it can really annoy some people.

I'd move on. Chances are most of us have been AR'd a number of times before - usually over trivial things.

Yours is not the biggest sin one could commit around here by any stretch of the imagination. Take my advice above more as a 'here is a hopefully more successful way to market.'

Mind you I do nearly no marketing of my commercial side in SL, having a very small footprint there. I do have a few friends who have amazingly successful SL businesses that I have seen use some of the tactics I suggest - and those tactics do work in 'RL' (my whole comment about descriptions of products / land is basically: apply SEO principles to it).

 

*********

My perception of how ARs are intended to work, which I suspect has not been the real case for years:

1. A files an AR against B (person, place, or thing).

2. Linden X gets assigned the AR and opens a server log to see what happened.

3. For places or objects needing a rememdy Linden X goes there and fixes things. For people issues, Linden X looks up policy and account history of B - then applies the proscribed penalty if the logs showed B did what A stated.

4. If the logs showed A made a reasonable mistake about B, but B did nothing, then Linden X just closes the matter.

5. If the logs showed A knew B did nothing filed anyway, then Linden X would apply measures against A.

 

- But I think what really happens is they read the report, sip some coffee, roll their eyes at the spelling of the report or the 'dramaz' involved and then 'shoot from the hip' with some action because they 'know the policy already you noobs.' Not with all of them, maybe even not with many of them, but one has to suspect enough do this that residents have noticed a taint in the water.

At companies where I've seen things reach that level, managers would start handing out checklist forms people had to complete for every case they got assigned... but eventually management would stop looking at the checklist forms, and people would start shooting from the hip again...

Reading a post from each side on what happened is not needed, because they have logs. It would just taint matters more.

- Over in World of Warcraft, there's an infamous incident where a user was claiming all kinds of misconduct abd abuse against his account, and lots of hacking, stolen gold, etc... The suport folks kept closing his tickets, so he went public.

- So a senier community rep took chat and local event logs from several years, and posted key pieces; proving two things:

1. They had a log going back to day one.

2. They had the tools to quickly search that log for the right key words / dates and prove facts.

And I guess 3, 'make em do it' and they're not going to be on your side.

...

I seriously doubt LLs lacks logs. Maybe they do lack them - but 2 months of WOW is probably akin to everything that's happened in SL since 2003... Any and all reluctance to get involved in disputes stems solely from corporate culture - not practicality. Even if they really did lack these logs, the tools to start having them are in place (every one of us has such a log in our SL folder on our computer - on august 26, 2011, at 7:23am, my AO apparantly had 3% memory free, who knew?), and data storage is cheap.

 

 

[Polenth Yue]

Chances are if there was only one report of unsolicited landmarks, not a lot will happen. If you do get contacted by the Lindens though, I'd recommend not doing what you've done in this thread. You've looked for every reason under the sun why it isn't spamming and it isn't your fault.

What you need to say to the Linden is, "I'm sorry, I didn't realise it was a TOS violation at the time. I won't do it again." Own the mistake. Don't try to justify or excuse it, because when you do that, it sounds like you're looking for loopholes so you can do it again.

(Outside of TOS issues though, it is annoying and there are better ways to market. At a simple level, you can set up your signature here with a link and put a pick in your profile. People will follow it if they're interested in you.)

[Dilbert Dilweg]

It is posted at all info hubs with this sign

 

 

 

So yes. If you are hanging out at a info hub for the purpose to recruit people for your business club or groups. then you are clearly in violation. It is an info Safe hub.. safe hub means the users should also be safe from recruiting

And yes begging is also in there. it's wrong to use a safe haven for your advertising avenu

 

I built 2 popular clubs and never ever resorted to use of info hubs to advetise

 

Doesn't anyone read the signs anymore? lol

 

And yes recruiting starts with an IM

 

Obey the laws of the land. Look around at every place you teleport to. Everyone has rules and if they did not have any. then it would be taken advantage of and everyone would be spamming landmarks advertising and recruiting off their own land and hanging out at info hubs to take advantage of users being forcably redirected there due to a region down

[Nova Convair]

You are just another spammer and deserve every AR you get.
I don't file AR's for small stuff like that but maybe for you I'd make an exception. :matte-motes-sunglasses-1:

I doubt Lindens put much efforts in peanuts like that but maybe the # of AR's someone gets has some influence. But I don't know.

I filed only 2 AR's in all the years.

- rotating megaprim reaching far over the border - vanished 2 hours later

- repeatingly spamming object - owner does not exist in SL - I can mute it and set a filter in the email but I AR'd it - stopped one day later

So, don't know how the AR process works but somehow it seems to work from my point of view. At least if its against objects there seems to happen a quick zapping.

[Tiffy Vella]

Hmmm..I know that little island in the Blake Sea...a spot people might sail to to get away from it all. Now, if I were sent landmarks and/or business promotional messages at a store, or mall, or fair, or shopping sim, or via a shop group, or subscribo, or one of those product-promotion-groups, then I'd say fair's fair. But if I had made the effort to sail to the middle of the Blake Sea and some person spammed me (and 6 others) with business landmarks, regardless of whether or not he had spoken a few friendly words in local chat I'd still be pretty miffed. And I would not likely be a customer of that business.

You can be shirtless, as that's cool there. That's a non-issue. I think the man who initially addressed you sounded rude, but I think that may be his own seperate issue, and that one is not your problem either. But as to the rest, honestly, there are times and places where people don't like being sold to, and they will resent it.

There are lots of ways to promote your business, and if you direct your efforts towards people who have elected to receive such messages, you have won half the battle. Don't spring advertising on people out having a day off.

[Qwalyphi Korpov]

The resident who provided the previous content, if any, has replaced it with this generic statement.

[161488303349]

---

Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

So I might have missed something but - it looks like the rule about not advertising in Welcome Areas & Info Hubs is not part of the TOS.  Therefore it would not be against the TOS to pass out landmarks.   Just against the WA guidelines.

 

---

it can fall under Community Standards: Disturbing the Peace:

".. repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, ..."

[Qwalyphi Korpov]

The resident who provided the previous content, if any, has replaced it with this generic statement.

[Cortland Swindlehurst]

"You are just another spammer and deserve every AR you get.
I don't file AR's for small stuff like that but maybe for you I'd make an exception."

 

Ah now, that's harsh.  I'm not a spammer.. I've been in and out of here for 6 years, this is this the first time I ever passed out landmarks and it was just 7.  I had a shop before in the old days, now I'm doing an events type venue so this is new to me.

I read the TOS just now, and I can't find anything that says it's a violation of terms of service to give someone a landmark in an infohub.

Thing is, ABUSE REPORT should be for serious abuse.  I just watched a linden video about abuse reports, apparently what it's for is outright griefing.  Even then they cover ways for residents to resolve the issue before resorting to reporting it.  All this guy had to do was say it's against the rules.  I was never going to paste spam or more than one LM anyway so it's not repeated griefing (but I acknowledge it was against infohub rules about advertising, I didn't know it at the time though).

My main point with this thread is people should relax and that it's not right to frivolously report.  And it clogs Linden's resources up for handling genuine abuse.  Frankly, somebody handing you one landmark isn't abuse, in my opinion, and far as I can tell it's not a TOS violation.

According to the vid, what they take into acount is 1)  Severity of abuse (if this is even "abuse" it's certainly not severe) 2) history of AR's (I have had none in 6 years), and 3) whether it's in a welcome / noobie area (which this was).

I feel better now after watching that vid, my guess is that I won't hear anything (if he even really reported me), because as far as I can tell this isn't even TOS violation.

But I won't do it again, that's for sure.  If linden contacts me I'll tell them the truth, same thing I told the guy: I'm sorry, I didn't know it was a TOS violation.

Now, you abuse reporters out there.. chill out.. use all the common sense tools to resolve problems yourself before filing a report.  Ask the person to stop.  Block them.  If all those tools you have for self-resolution don't work and it's something serious like somebody using alts to disrupt your sim over and over then fine report it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cortland Swindlehurst]

it can fall under Community Standards: Disturbing the Peace:

".. repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, ..."

 

It wasn't repeated it was just one LM per person.  Trust me I won't do it again, I don't want to annoy people, regardless of TOS rules.