Cortland Swindlehurst

Charolotte Caxton wrote: Cortland Swindlehurst wrote: (I really need to figure out how to reply with quote) At the top right, just click the Quote button when replying to someone. Thanks! How did I miss that.. see, this is an example of how critical intuitive design is for someone new to something (in my case, posting on the forum). People are very busy and get bored quickly, if they can't figure something out they give up and find something else to do. I was looking for a "reply with quote" button on the actual post. Then in this window I was looking at the toolbar buttons starting with bold. Quote is a grayed out button next to spell check. Should be a button that says "reply with quote" next to reply on the main post. Ugh now my whole post is quote italics. I need a forum nobbie starter room.. :matte-motes-big-grin:

This question is posted on SLU forum I guess, so Linden won't even read all this here? :matte-motes-big-grin-squint: It's funny to hear they are utterly stumped, like nothing they do can stop the new user churn, when all of we users have so many ideas. *sighs* They've had *years* to work on this now. SL is clearly addicting, all they have to do is get people to stay long enough to get sucked in (actually maybe not a good idea ). What's clear is that casual, facebook type new users, like avatar dressup. They like cool avs. And to chat. So do that starter room idea, *create a new user sl-lite starter experience where noobs can branch off from there*, and overhaul the viewer gui to be more icon-based. And profiles need to be overhauled. We're well into the Facebook era here, yet that profile still just has 2 pictures your dispaly pic and then the "1st life" pic which so many use for a 2nd SL picture. People have been doing a work-around for years now, Picks, to create profile pages about their friends / SL family / clan or whatnot. I'm amazed Linden hasn't taken notice and built in a direct functionality for this. Originally Linden thought people would share places of itnerest, but it turns out people are more interested in other people. To know how to sell SL, all Linden needs to do is actually play it and watch -- see what the users are doing with it. If users are making workarounds to do something they want, then Linden should expand on that.

(I really need to figure out how to reply with quote) "Petronilla Whitfield wrote: I have read every answer in this thread and would like to make one comment that I think hasn’t been made yet. While I believe that for many people—even most—social engagement is what makes SL attractive, there are also people like me who gravitate towards a virtual world because they are shy/antisocial. I did not go into SL to meet people. I never had or wanted to be taken under somebody’s wing. I would have quit if forced to “buddy up” with a stranger." That's a good point. When I joined way way back, I had zero intention of having any "friends" or socializing. I only joined at all because this was during the media hype, it all sounded so wild their own currency exchange and little businesses and you can cash out and all the new world utopia hippy vibe in the press. I wound up socializing though, without ever intending to. Just ran into someone from a steampunk community, liked his gear, couldn't help but ask what all that was and one thing led to another and I had a niche in SL. Nowdays I force myself to be a loner, I been in and out of SL too long I can't get "sucked in" with too many SL friends. But if we're talking about retention here, then that's exactly what SL needs to do, get folks sucked in, at least in the beginning. No, a buddy program shouldn't be "forced," of course not. But maybe build a friend / mentor match right into the viewer, make it available. It's either that or be darn sure the noobie landing area has some social life going on. I have some experience with Eve Online. I can tell you something that happens there, and that game has a gargantuan learning curve, is that as a noobie you've got several chat windows staring at you with people chatting. I think that helps. Even loners will sit and listen, and begin to figure out what's what. Best solution of all is maybe bring back community gateways. You can separate SL in to many interesting portals. Steampunk, elves, RP's, fairies, furries, serious things, on and on. Make this community portal center open to current residents too. Like a central hub for SL. I rolled an alt recently just to see what it's like now. It's slick and low lag, but It looks boring. They need some community portals at least, some slick advertising billboards, *anything* to tell noobies what there is in SL. Nobody talks. I think they want to protect newbies from infohub crazyness and mayhem, but the opposite -- silence --- is what causes their churn. "I am in-world frequently—several times a week—and rarely speak to anyone, except to make the occasional comment in a large group chat. I have no interest in “adult” activities in SL. Yet I get a lot out of SL, and have done so for the past five years. I build, I run a shop, I own property that I like to redecorate, I participate in charity events, go dancing, listen to live music, shop, walk my dog, explore." Here's another idea -- put user testimonials right on the front signup page. With a arrow clicky to scroll through; noobies could see like what you just wrote, then click and see someone living a fantasy life as a vampire or drow or furry micro elf or whatever, another click and testimonial about someone who loves to sail or fly planes, on and on. Let people thinking of signing up read a little bit, see what real people use SL for. I think the main point here is to very directly get some clear info across to new people about what SL is even used for, in a way that may sound relevent to them (not bland boring copywriting, real people). If you've got a product that even an hour in people don't understand what it is, THAT is what causes churn. Lastly.. Couple more random tips. Maybe default graphics settings are too high for people with just onboard graphics like Intel. LAG is a big thing that can turn noobies away, if they're not hooked yet they will have zero patience for lag. Someone upthread mentioned a starter "room." That's a great idea. It's Linden's job to get new people to stay long enough to get hooked, then the user-created community can take it from there. So give the noobies that starter room, and make it look GREAT. One room, with a little yard and lake and some nice trees. Give them a choice of like 5 themed start rooms. You could do a restriction allowing only the one avatar to use it, maybe no prims allowed. Use instancing. Would be like SL-lite, get them interested long enough to then dive deeper -- could make it another premium benefit to allow friends in your starter room. The point would never be to compete with the user-created grid, only to give noobies a content-rich experience right away right now because otherwise people just quit. Going forward, the new game-design tools may help. Do more of that. Focus SL on having mmo games, and avatar dressup with your starter room. Viewer needs a gui change too, taking the "received items" idea a step further -- have a icon box so when you buy off MP a little picture shows on your screen, then drag the picture to the ground or wear it. Expereinced users don't need any of this, but to a brand new noob these polishes are what make the difference. If they never stay long enough to figure out how to a rezz something fun and use it, then they will quit.

Two ideas.. 1. Casually narrated / amateur looking intro vids, simple as embedded youtube clips somewhere onthe signup page. Show the noobies some quick basics so they know what this whole SL thing even is. I certainly had no idea, back in the day. I logged in, took a while to get some bearings, saw one empty mall and then said "wow this is lagged, unplayable." Maybe it was my settings, plus onboard graphics. I didn't log in again until a year later. So. Welcome area is extremely important -- make something low lag yet very interesting, hire helpers again (you should have live people there where newbies land, ready to help / get people interested). 2. Maybe a buddy match system. Build it into the viewer. The key to retention is getting people socializing, that's bottom line.

"But you can IM strangers if you want to promote something to them. IMing isn't spamming. Sending advertising IMs out of the blue is spamming. Earlier in the thread I gave an example of a stranger IMing me out of the blue just yesterday (or was it the day before). Her IM asked if she could ask me a short question and I said "yes". Then she sent a pre-prepared ad IM that concluded by asking if I was interested. She did it without spamming me. I don't know what your LM is for but suppose it's a new club. You could IM strangers, simply asking something like, "We've just opened a new club. May I send you an LM for it in case you ever want to visit?" That way, people can do the same as they can do with leaflets in the RL street - accept it, say "no thank you", or just ignore it." Okay that makes sense, but still shouldn't be done at infohub with those special infohub rules in mind. Funny thing is, look all the words I've typed in this thread.. clearly I can talk.. if I had just framed it as convo, asked for permission, then it's not spam (but still recruiting I suppose). The irony is at the time I thought that was more rude -- it takes longer for someone to have convo than to read a landmark, whereas the landmark took the least time for the recipient and politely invited further convo if they chose. If time is the commodity here, then the promoter wastes more of the person's time with words versus a landmark. Also, a landmark is in no way malicious unlike an unknown object passed. So in conclusion.. a LM can get you AR'd. But taking up a lot of a person's time by talking can't. :matte-motes-big-grin: On the other hand this kind of rule prevents bots and just spamming 30 people. Because bots can't have a convo. So I get that. But I was ready for convo this was a small group of people I was standing next to. P.S. the business is going great, that's the good news, I have to stop posting on this forum and pay attention to it ha It's time for this thread to go away, only way for that to happen is me stop posting. Thanks everyone for the good promotion tips in the thread. I'm not going to talk to any random people going forward, just personally that feels like even worse spam to me even if it's TOS-okay.

"spam is not about the receipt of "unwanted" advertising, as you put it. It's about the receipt of "unsolicited" advertising, such as emails, phone calls, letter box junk, notecards, IMs and LMs." First, you can't assume everyone knows what "spam" means -- SL is quite international now. The rules should be specific, Linden should clarify, there are differences of opinion in this thread. (unless spelled out then it's subjective, my personal view of spam is copypasta type text and someone keeps pasting it over in local or ims it over and over to same person -- and this is just what the TOS mentions, that key word "repeated," it's repetition that makes the Spam) Secondly, the word "unwanted" is what appears in the AR drop-down box. It says "unwanted," not "unsolicitied." Language matters here they mean different things -- for a thing to be "unwanted" that requires you tell the person you don't want it. So somebody keeps imming you, you ask them to stop, and if they keep doing it then at that point it is unwanted. Even here you should block and not do AR, my opinion, save Linden some labor for serious AR's. But you must inform the person it's "unwanted" or there's no way for them to know -- they can't read your mind. If we ban "unsolicited" IM's then that means people can't IM any strangers if it connects to any kind of promoting -- which includes every interesting sim on the whole grid, except infohubs and Governor Linden's mansion and that cool beanstalk.

"and he seems like quite a piece of cake so weigh that when you decide if he actually went to the trouble (AR'ing is not hard but it must be complete which takes a few minutes and some thought)." Thank you, if people can just say "ya he sounds like a jerk" then I'll shut up in this thread. Who asks a newcomer in local "are you female" that's just weird. Either a) he's looking for fun with a infohub noob b) he's blind or c) a jerk because I have long hair or d) I was rezzing and he was trolling to do AR's ready to report on a topless woman. I assume the best about people, I actually passed that jerk a LM -- then after he said "muted and reported" I realized he really is a creep. This thread has gone on long enough, but a general issue with these AR's are people who use them to grief. "Dropping a LM could be advertising a business......but so could a club owner or manager IM'ing you and telling about a group for club members" That's a very good point -- right there that shows, that of course the special "mainland policies" don't cover all of mainland because as you say a club owner couldn't even IM people in his own place. That part of the TOS is about ad farms. I admit it was wrong in retrospect, Linden will probably not even think it warrants a warning but I'm fine with a warning I just hope they don't see that "spam" category and suspend me because that's not fair. Should be a warning at most, unless whoever is going through these all day gets tired and clicks "suspend." You see posts like that on this forum, people can't even figure out if they're suspended or not or how to contact anyone to find out anything. Ergo, people.. please.. do NOT frivolously AR folks! It's wrong.

"LL defines advertising as being "any content that explicitly promotes any space, good or service whether in Second Life or elsewhere." This definition is located via the following path: Section 8.3 subsection 6 that states that users will not violate Second Life Mainland Policies. (Section 14 of the TOS titled "Additional Terms and Policies" lists Second Life Mainland Policies as being part of the TOS.)The Second Life Mainland Policies includes their policy on "Ad Farms". "Is passing a landmark considered content? Is "content" defined? Sounds like that part of the TOS is meant to cover ad farms. "In the AR drop down these are two choices in regards to Advertising: 1. Disturbing the Peace: Unwanted Advert Spam. 2. Disturbing the Peace: Repetitive Spam." Hm.. I still don't see "spam" precisely defined anywhere. There's a part of the TOS that says "repetition." Getting one landmark isn't repeated, and it's still a question as to whether a landmark is "advertising." As for "unwanted," how do you know when imming a stranger if it's unwanted until they tell you it's unwanted? The guy that reported me, he first asked me if I'm female well that was definitely unwanted, I only answered because it was in local. If it were an im, I would have clicked that little x just like I would with any other unwanted message. Anyhow, if this really is a big issue then honestly Linden needs some precise direct langauge about it, somewhere other than the AR dropbox itself, just like in the TOS they are precise about "ad farms." (I don't know how to reply with quote by the way.. thank you for the info you gave.. I think I need to do a test AR just to see the dropdowns, that's easiest way to know the rules) P.S. I could have done 2 AR's today and added to lindens mountain of AR's. I got one IM from someone not in the same sim as me, talking about a 1/4 sim for rent. I'm not sure if that violates TOS or not though, it wasn't in infohub but from what you just posted an AR can be done for any "unwanted" advertisement. Second thing that happend, I was at a club and someone dropped something large and knocked us all out. Nobody filed an AR. We laughed about it. If it had been repeated, THEN that would be griefing. My general point here is.. people should TALK to people before they file an AR. Also, relax, consider whether you TRULY feel "abused" before filing an "Abuse Report." Lastly.. despite liking access to the Blake Sea.. I need to move back to a private estate. I actually had a friend warn me aobut Mainland, he said "Mainland????? what are you thinking...." Now I see why. There are people sitting around filing AR's.

"Here is the link to the Community Standards, part of the TOS, https://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php Item number 6: Disturbing the Peace includes: repeated transmission of undesired advertising content." "(ii) Post or transmit unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, or promotional materials, that are in the nature of "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation that Linden Lab considers to be of such nature;" I know what exactly what legalese means, and the above is pretty clear what it's intended to cover: "pryamid schemes," "chain letters," and such, and honestly the above was written by lawyers it's meant to cover out of world advertising. You can't apply it to normal use of Second Life for things which Second Life is all about in the first place -- creating a space for other users to enjoy and then passing a landmark. One could interpret the above so broadly that any IM is considered junk mail, it's not like Linden approves every bit of in game advertising for every business in here, we're talking about essential use of the platform. Passing one landmark in SL doesn't constitute "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes." "Every Resident has a right to live their Second Life. Disrupting scheduled events, repeated transmission of undesired advertising content" Now that is very clear and we can all tell what it means, the key word here is REPEATED. GETTING PASSED ONE SINGLE LANDMARK is not being griefed, now if someone stands there and keeps dropping lm's on you or writes spam in im or local and does it over and over then that's "repeated." Ideally, community standards should be updated to specifically address dropping an unsolicited landmark, but guess what -- they probably don't consider this to be a non-intended use of SL. Residents pass each other landmarks all the time. Where it becomes griefing is if someone keeps pasting you with landmarks over and over -- which has never happened to me, I do what most people do if I get a IM someone saying hi and I don't want to talk I close out that window. Sometimes I do talk. This is a social platform enabling strangers to communicate with each other. It takes a split second to click that little ex and the window is gone. THINK ABOUT THIS.. what is clearly allowed in SL and nobody would disupute it is if someobdy IM's you and strikes up a conversation, THEN mentions the public venue that's available for residents to visit. That whole process takes a lot more of the other persons time, reading a paragraph rather than a landmark link. This is all silly -- one landmark is not being spammed, that's the bottom line, just as a resident saying hello to a stranger isn't spamming. Whereas if you keep talking over and over even when the other doesn't respond, that's spamming, but Linden can't regulate everyone 24/7, best thing to do is click that little x on the IM window or block the person. The linden video I watched about AR's is an old one I guess. Since I never AR anyone I don't know what the dropdowns are. If there's one for spam, I stand by what I said -- one LM is not being spammed. Spam is repeated advertising, and yes that's disruptive. Even here they need some more specific language to clarify what they consider to be spam. I'm not going to drop any random LM's on anyone anymore anyway, because of my own ethics, I see now some people are clearly more bothered by it. Whatever Linden wants to do, I'm fine with. It's not going to happen again anyway, nor will I even visit a infohub. I don't see the TOS violoation here, but I ackowledge it was a infohub rule infraction (*maybe*, I didn't actually try to sell anything it was juts a LM but I'll cede this point that in the spirit of the rules passing someone even one landmark violates the "recruiting" rule). If they consider this infohub rule infraction to be serious, I think a warning is appropriate considering I've never had an AR in 6 years. I asked some friends inworld by the way, and they all said "yes that's spamming you have to talk to them first" (and not at an infohub). But I'm not going to do even that unless I just happen to get to know someone -- for one thing, I really would want to get to know THEM before I even know if I want them in my place.

it can fall under Community Standards: Disturbing the Peace: ".. repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, ..." It wasn't repeated it was just one LM per person. Trust me I won't do it again, I don't want to annoy people, regardless of TOS rules.

"You are just another spammer and deserve every AR you get. I don't file AR's for small stuff like that but maybe for you I'd make an exception." Ah now, that's harsh. I'm not a spammer.. I've been in and out of here for 6 years, this is this the first time I ever passed out landmarks and it was just 7. I had a shop before in the old days, now I'm doing an events type venue so this is new to me. I read the TOS just now, and I can't find anything that says it's a violation of terms of service to give someone a landmark in an infohub. Thing is, ABUSE REPORT should be for serious abuse. I just watched a linden video about abuse reports, apparently what it's for is outright griefing. Even then they cover ways for residents to resolve the issue before resorting to reporting it. All this guy had to do was say it's against the rules. I was never going to paste spam or more than one LM anyway so it's not repeated griefing (but I acknowledge it was against infohub rules about advertising, I didn't know it at the time though). My main point with this thread is people should relax and that it's not right to frivolously report. And it clogs Linden's resources up for handling genuine abuse. Frankly, somebody handing you one landmark isn't abuse, in my opinion, and far as I can tell it's not a TOS violation. According to the vid, what they take into acount is 1) Severity of abuse (if this is even "abuse" it's certainly not severe) 2) history of AR's (I have had none in 6 years), and 3) whether it's in a welcome / noobie area (which this was). I feel better now after watching that vid, my guess is that I won't hear anything (if he even really reported me), because as far as I can tell this isn't even TOS violation. But I won't do it again, that's for sure. If linden contacts me I'll tell them the truth, same thing I told the guy: I'm sorry, I didn't know it was a TOS violation. Now, you abuse reporters out there.. chill out.. use all the common sense tools to resolve problems yourself before filing a report. Ask the person to stop. Block them. If all those tools you have for self-resolution don't work and it's something serious like somebody using alts to disrupt your sim over and over then fine report it.

Yes I can see now I was wrong, but TOS never ocurred to me, and like I said I've gotten random lm's for years now I never thought this upset people because it never bothered me. But everyone is different, and some people enjoy reporting. Here's how reporting SHOULD work: 1. Someone reports you, it opens a ticket (but doesn't show their name), and you can see that ticket in your account on the website. 2. You can go ahead and write your side of it. 3. When Linden finally gets around to it, they can update the ticket. As it is now, I don't even know how this works. Does anyone know how linden contacts you, do they send you an email?

No I didn't do repeated lm's. What I thought of doing was just talk to people, have convos, friendly chat.. ask if they or anyone they know may like my business. But I was shy so just passed the LM's. It was only 7 LMs, 7 different people. Broadening the topic.. Report feature should go BOTH WAYS. REPORTING itself is done as harassment, let's be honest here. People do this for lols. The person who is reported should have the right to open their own ticket, and get resolution. He knew I wasn't a spam bot, he said something rude in the first place and I answered nicely. But I can't report him for being weird and rude asking my gender, now can I? (there's no doubt about my gender by the way, I don't know what he was thinking he probably wanted to report a woman who had no shirt on but I'm clearly a man). Bottom line, he should have said in local or IM that's against TOS, and I would have said sorry. It's the rudeness that got me irked, SL used to be a nice place now it's all mean-spirited lols.

It's that island in the Blake Sea. I'm not a spammer, I was just riding my boat and stopped by there like I always do. I only handed out 7 LMs. The guy that reported me, I get off my boat and he says "are you female?" I'm a man, but I have long hair, though my swimming trunks and bare chest should leave no doubt about that. Now I think about it, I guess he just trolls that place ready to hit report button for anything, why else does he care if I'm male or female. Is it against TOS for a man to be shirtless on an island in the Blake Sea? Anyhow I did change clothes straight after landing and because I'm a nice person I just said "I'm male." Then I hung around like I always do and on a whim passed out those lm's. SINCE HE ENGAGED ME IN LOCAL CONVO FIRST, how did I spam him? He said someting weird / rude to me to begin with, I brushed it off and shared a LM with him. Then he reports me. I really dislike infohubs by the way, I didn't even think about this being one it's just one of those islands in the Blake. (can anyone tell me what happens next, like in 3 months will Linden send me an email or IM? Now I've got to watch that email which I normally don't. I'm assuming here I'll get a warning email, but if there's any chance of suspension while it's looked into or whatever, or if they just see "spammer" and click suspend I need to know that)

Well that makes sense.. but I'd engaged in local chat a bit first, the lm passing was a whim, it was clear I wasn't a bot. Is it okay to pass out LM's in other places, other than infohubs? (I don't think I will anyway now I don't want to annoy people) What happens when you get reported for this? Should I use an alt for the business I'm helping? I don't ever want my account suspended, that's 6 years of inventory gone, all my pictures things I've built, who knows how much money worth of stuff, on and on. So if an alt gets suspended to do they suspend the main too?