Mesh IP?

[Keller Teichmann]

I haven't really posted here before, so if this is the wrong forum, I'll shuffle it off elsewhere.

 

I'm kind of appalled at how loosely mesh IP rules are being enforced. Throughout the beta we were constantly told about how strictly IP rights would be enforced, and how content rippers would be caught in their tracks and wouldn't be able to profit from the newfound ability to potentially upload content straight from videogames.

Then I log in one morning, and find Tali from Mass Effect 3 standing in the sim, talking about where they apparently bought the avatar, only to realize it matched the model from ME3 perfectly. I look it up online, only to find the 'creator' sells dozens of models, all ripped from a variety of games - blatantly so, over a period of several months.

I understand that LL follows DMCA, but that restricts the ability to police such things to solely the IP holder. It doesn't let the community as a whole police themselves, or otherwise discourage people from engaging in what's pretty blatant content theft. This fellow makes money (a lot of it apparently) just ripping and selling models straight from videogames - his only 'work' is to occasionally apply a shiny or color effect to the model and sell it for a few hundred L$ extra. It seriously damages the market, hinders legitimate content developers (who can honestly crank out models of that quality every... few hours for months on end?) , and it just looks plain bad after all these measures were supposedly put in place for mesh uploading.

 

It also doesn't help having that sinking feeling knowing there's nothing one can really do about it, aside from notifying corporations and studios which often take weeks or months to do anything about it. Is there anything we as a community can do at all?

(I didn't link the guy's 'studio' for a reason - I'd rather not give him free publicity, but you can probably find it rather easily)

[Deja Letov]

I see it constantly. I brought it up before and basically unless the copyright holder files a claim there isn't anything to be done. This was one of my biggest fears about mesh being introduced here. Imagine all those people who buy it and when it does get taken down, they close it from their inventories. How ticked with they be! This is why I've pretty much steared clear from buying any mesh from any creator unless I've been a long time customer of theirs and know them well.

[Dilbert Dilweg]

It is a shame to see it . I imagine it it would be a lot of work to just report them .

Either way the IP theft really makes it hard for the ones who busted their asses to learn it all and get to the level they are now . By Honest means

[PeterCanessa Oh]

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This post intentionally left blank until there's something to disagree with.  Why is everyone making sense?

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[Kenbro Utu]

Since you cannot report it to LL, do the next best thing, notify the IP owner about it.

[Tiffy Vella]

Agreeing with everything you say there. And yes, it does look bad after everything that was said. Just what was the purpose of that little test again, that everyone had to complete before getting their mesh licence?

Any mesh I buy is from creators with a real and pre-mesh commitment to creating- the ones who have been striving to give us good original content over time, and who have been learning the skills honestly.

[Masami Kuramoto]

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Keller Teichmann wrote:

It also doesn't help having that sinking feeling knowing there's nothing one can really do about it, aside from notifying corporations and studios which often take weeks or months to do anything about it. Is there anything we as a community can do at all?

---

No. If the owners of the IP don't take action, there is nothing we can do. They may even have good reasons to ignore it. We can notify them, but we can't force them to exercise their IP rights. It's none of our business.

But I'm wondering: If the customers don't care, and Linden Lab doesn't care, and even the studios/corporations don't care -- why do you?

[Keller Teichmann]

Firstly, on the basis of morals - just because someone doesn't care that someone stole something from them doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.

Secondly, because it hurts the competition - which as mentioned above, are usually honest working people who actually endeavour to create their own products.

Thirdly, LL should care. The system they hyped up as being bulletproof isn't just failing to live up to that standard, it isn't even living at all. Things like what I saw this morning are what could get LL in hot water, and if that happens, all of us suffer, because some kid with a UE3 unpacker thought he could make a few quick bucks uploading models from Mass Effect (and Crysis, and Terminator, and so on).

[Masami Kuramoto]

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Keller Teichmann wrote:

Firstly, on the basis of morals - just because someone doesn't care that someone stole something from them doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.

Secondly, because it hurts the competition - which as mentioned above, are usually honest working people who actually endeavour to create their own products.

Thirdly, LL

should

 care. The system they hyped up as being bulletproof isn't just failing to live up to that standard, it isn't even living at all. Things like what I saw this morning are what could get LL in hot water, and if that happens,

all of us

suffer, because some kid with a UE3 unpacker thought he could make a few quick bucks uploading models from Mass Effect (and Crysis, and Terminator, and so on).

---

Stealing is immoral, no doubt, but if the IP owner does not mind the infringement, can you still call it stealing?

Maybe you find it immoral because of the second point you mentioned: disruption of the market. In other words, high quality ripped content raises the bar for everyone and makes it harder to sell junk. That argument sounds familiar; I've heard a similar one being made against the distribution of freebies and against the introduction of mesh in general.

There is just one thing to consider: If the IP owner decided to authorize the distribution of that high quality content, e.g. to promote the game it was taken from, the SL market would still be disrupted and amateur junk would still be a tough sell. It seems that the ripped content is a problem not so much because it was ripped but because it is high quality.

Maybe this is why we see, again and again, people calling for Linden Lab to step in and take care of the matter "in the community's interest" -- effectively bypassing the law which requires no one but the IP owner to decide and take action. There is a word for that kind of thing; we call it "vigilantism".

We frequently hear people claiming to have notified IP owners, but we rarely see any results. More often than not, the content is not taken down, and we never learn about the IP owner's response either, if there was any. Instead we hear complaints that the IP owner is "too slow" to react. Too slow for whom?

Linden Lab's implementation of mesh is bullet-proof in that it allows to trace any mesh upload to its origin, an account owned by a person whose ID was verified through payment information. This is what Linden Lab promised and delivered. They never promised to police content preemptively. They couldn't do that even if they wanted to, because they are not in a position to know what content is infringing, what content is fair use etc. Only the courts can do that.

[Tiffy Vella]

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

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This post intentionally left blank until there's something to disagree with.  Why is everyone making sense?

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Because the vast majority of us have a moral compass that tells us that the person who does the work deserves to get the rewards. We aren't all bad. And all the naughty ones are asleep. Or skiving off somewhere, like on the Renderosity site or something.

[ROB34466IIIa]

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Keller Teichmann wrote:

It also doesn't help having that sinking feeling knowing there's nothing one can really do about it, aside from notifying corporations and studios which often take weeks or months to do anything about it. Is there anything we as a community can do at all?

 

---

No. And the corporations and studios will only do something about it when they find out large sums of money are being made with it. I stronly doubt their legal departments will do everything to stop anybody making a few Linden off of those items.

The creators of those objects damn well know that, no matter how much corporate speak is defined in legalese.

For those of you not recognising it : this is a mesh of Majora' s Mask, a game title by a very well known Japanese game company.

 

No .. I did not report this. I've seen IP breaches from the very beginning of mesh. It' s unstoppable in this environment in this way.

Fullstop.

[Tiffy Vella]

---

Masami Kuramoto wrote:

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Stealing is immoral, no doubt, but if the IP owner does not mind the infringement, can you still call it stealing?

Maybe you find it immoral because of the second point you mentioned: disruption of the market. In other words, high quality ripped content raises the bar for everyone and makes it harder to sell junk. That argument sounds familiar; I've heard a similar one being made against the distribution of freebies and against the introduction of mesh in general.

There is just one thing to consider: If the IP owner decided to authorize the distribution of that high quality content, e.g. to promote the game it was taken from, the SL market would still be disrupted and amateur junk would still be a tough sell. It seems that the ripped content is a problem not so much because it was ripped but because it is high quality.

Maybe this is why we see, again and again, people calling for Linden Lab to step in and take care of the matter "in the community's interest" -- effectively bypassing the law which requires no one but the IP owner to decide and take action. There is a word for that kind of thing; we call it "vigilantism".

We frequently hear people claiming to have notified IP owners, but we rarely see any results. More often than not, the content is not taken down, and we never learn about the IP owner's response either, if there was any. Instead we hear complaints that the IP owner is "too slow" to react. Too slow for whom?

Linden Lab's implementation of mesh is bullet-proof in that it allows to trace any mesh upload to its origin, an account owned by a person whose ID was verified through payment information. This is what Linden Lab promised and delivered. They never promised to police content preemptively. They couldn't do that even if they wanted to, because they are not in a position to know what content is infringing, what content is fair use etc. Only the courts can do that.

---

"Stealing is immoral, no doubt, but if the IP owner does not mind the infringement, can you still call it stealing?"

This needs to be corrected to:

"Stealing is immoral, no doubt, but if the IP owner is not yet aware of the infringement and has not yet taken action, can you still call it stealing?"

 

I disagree with your inference that original mesh creators are only sore because they create "junk" which can't compete with stolen items. Not nice, logical, or true. In fact entirely malicious. Luckily, we have many original creators who don't need to steal, and whos work falls outside the genre of "combat game avatar and weapons/cartoon" which seems to be the mass of stolen work for sale. Sadly, a search in the Marketplace for mesh avatars will result in a flood of stolen results, and our original artists are typically hidden under piles of pulp. I think that's unjustifiable, and unfair competition, and it has nothing to do with the quality offered by SL artists. It has everything to do with numbers, and a thief can flood the field while an original artist cannot.

 

 

 

[PeterCanessa Oh]

---

Keller Teichmann wrote:

Thirdly, LL

should

 care. The system they hyped up as being bulletproof isn't just failing to live up to that standard, it isn't even living at all.

---

That's always the way with LL though, isn't it.  They never follow-through on things they say.  (Which might be why they've stopped saying anything.)  I don't think they ever claimed restricting upload was bulltetproof or even foolproof though, it was just a legal figleaf and a way to piss-off those of us who don't have a form of payment acceptable to LL.  NB:  They didn't ask for proof of RL identity, address, etc.  they asked for payment information.  As if that can't be changed or closed ^^

Meanwhile I don't think the big games or companies are at all hurt by this plagiarism, they may even see it as free advertising.  That's if they hear about it at all, of course.  I really, really hope someone gets jail time for this theft to make the point but it's very unlikely that anyone will even be prosecuted.

[Clarissa Lowell]

Hate to say it but Second Life has a very bad reputation among mesh artists all over the internet for this type of thing. I haven't seen it in world myself but I have seen photos of video game characters and stuff like that in mesh. I don't think the copyright holders of those artistic creations made those mesh avatars.

Not sure what to say about it. It's a shame.

[Masami Kuramoto]

---

Tiffy Vella wrote:

"Stealing is immoral, no doubt, but if the IP owner does not mind the infringement, can you still call it stealing?"

This needs to be corrected to:

"Stealing is immoral, no doubt, but if the IP owner is not yet aware of the infringement and has not yet taken action, can you still call it stealing?"

---

No, that would be changing the subject. This one is about IP owners who do not take action after being notified. Who are fully aware and choose to go easy on it, for whatever reason.

---

I disagree with your inference that original mesh creators are only sore because they create "junk" which can't compete with stolen items. Not nice, logical, or true. In fact entirely malicious.

---

I don't believe that ripped content bothers you because you are genuinely worried about Electronic Arts' bottom line. Therefore, if you call for measures that go beyond what is required by law, I question your motivation. If EA don't care, neither should you.

Let me put it this way: Apparently there is a market for those game character avatars, and someone is picking up the slack. Those who buy the ripped content deserve at least half of the blame, because they provide the incentive.

[Maeve Balfour]

I brought this same topic up over on the mesh forum a couple of months ago.
(For the record, I'm NOT a merchant, I just create purely for personal usage).

It's appalling, but not much can be done unless the actual IP owner takes action themselves. The only thing we honest residents can do is notify the rightful IP owners and let them take the matter from there. Sometimes they take action, sometimes not. I know some content creators (DAZ3D.com especially) will quickly stomp on illegal content.

Overall, it's pretty shameful. As a mesh creator myself, I am appalled by the situation - knowing how MUCH WORK is involved in creating mesh content from scratch, it disgusts me that idiots willingly steal and SELL other people's hard work with blatant disregard for the original creators AND the customers they are ripping off.

If a mesh product is based on some kind of recognisable IP (game characters especially), you can pretty much be guaranteed that it's stolen mesh ripped straight out of game files. Customers are halfway to blame if they buy this stuff (anyone with a halfway decent grasp of commonsense would surely suspect the product is dodgy). If the customer buys content that they KNOW is infringing someone else's copyright IP, they only have themselves to blame for being burned if the said content is later removed from their inventory.

Still, there is no excuse at all. Theft is theft. SELLING stolen items is even worse.

[Solar Legion]

The "test" is a joke and is little more than a CYOA measure. Anyone with even half a brain knows this.

There are some game makers out there (Bethesda for example) which truly don't care how you use their game and character/model data, so long as you do not turn a profit from it. Meaning: One could legally convert and upload the mesh for an Elder Scrolls race/weapon/armor/artifact/other item to Second Life for personal use. One could not legally sell it.

Anyone who honestly believed that mesh would not be abused, who thought that there would be a change within Second Life which would allow mesh creation and sales to be all original, legal content ... Have I got a bridge to sell you! 

[PeterCanessa Oh]

---

Solar Legion wrote:

...Anyone who honestly believed that mesh would not be abused, who thought that there would be a change within Second Life which would allow mesh creation and sales to be all original, legal content ... Have I got a bridge to sell you! 

---

Which is why the whole "only premium members should be allowed to ...." argument that comes up regularly ("pay to play" everything from "pay to create mesh") is so wrong-headed and pointless.

Anyway, what's the land-impact of this bridge?...

[Ceka Cianci]

it could be that the actual owners of the content may not mind it..

they are probably more concerned with leaks of a product they are working on and the game being pirated rather than the things from the game getting exposure around the net..

 

where someone from say renderosity might probably have a whole different outlook about there stuff being put on sl..

they may find that sl is a good place to have their stuff seen because  they may have found a goof crowd in sl for their product..

or they could just raise all kinds of hell about it and take them to court..

about the only things i have ever really seen taken down that i can remember in any good amounts  were like NFL brandings and beer and soda things and things like that..that and other art from sites ect.

a lot of the other stuff like the avatar movie things and things from other games really still seem to stick around..

i just don't think they give a crap about it like they would the actual movie or game getting pirated..

the net is loaded with exposure of a companies game or movies..

i think they look at it as a plus more than something hurting them..

that or it's really just not worth the effort to deal with it for them..

 

it sucks to see people just plop stuff in here that they didn't create or buy the rights to or get permission for..

i'm sure it sucks for those that may have done any of that and see things getting passed around about them also being scams..

without proof it's really hard to tell i would think..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ann Otoole]

Stuff from renderosity and Daz has slowly filtered into SL for years. Nowhere near as bad as the race to steal video game characters that is going now.

If people want something done they can alert the IP owners and if the IP owners fail to act then you can create a name&shame blog and post lots of pics and name the IP owners and rippers and use google magic to put it right in front of the IP owners faces as they google themselves daily. Once they get that surprise they will be asking their respective legal departments as to why they do nothing except play golf at the country club all day. The problem is this tactic further stains SL.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Ann Otoole wrote:

Stuff from renderosity and Daz has slowly filtered into SL for years. Nowhere near as bad as the race to steal video game characters that is going now.

If people want something done they can alert the IP owners and if the IP owners fail to act then you can create a name&shame blog and post lots of pics and name the IP owners and rippers and use google magic to put it right in front of the IP owners faces as they google themselves daily. Once they get that surprise they will be asking their respective legal departments as to why they do nothing except play golf at the country club all day. The problem is this tactic further stains SL.

---

i'm sure you are right about the ripping and most that is in sl..

but just curious..what would happen to someone if they did do this name and shame site and ended up actually  naming and shaming someone that did get permission?

i mean there are creators in sl that do get permission from places and can sell in sl..just look at OD designs?

they have permissions for their products they make in second life..

wouldn't it be safer for the one making the site to see just how easy it is to get permissions first?

not saying all those people putting that content in sl got permission..but even a stray bullet can hit someone..and it's just as easy for it to happen with the first shot as it is with the last..

maybe find out what the odds are before possibly getting in real trouble themselves for a blog?

because if they do get hit with trouble..their only defense is based on a guess  they had betting on the odds..

i would want to get as much evidence as i could before putting myself out there like that..

 

 

 

[PeterCanessa Oh]

Be safe:  don't name and shame.  Name and ... leave it at that.

While "Mr E has stolen the Pygmy Queen mesh from Silly Company" could get you a libel lawsuit

"Silly Company's 'Pygmy Queen' as sold by Mr E" is just a statement of fact.  If they are legitimate you're advertising them.  If they're guilty you're exposing them.  At no point do you accuse them of anything or publish any private/privileged information since they are publicly selling or giving away the thing.

Trouble is still ... where would you get the images to show the original and the ripped models?  Both would be copyright.  Hehe, it's a laugh, isn't it - if you don't get the alleged-rippers consent you could be breaking their copyright !

[Perrie Juran]

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Ceka Cianci wrote

but just curious..what would happen to someone if they did do this name and shame site and ended up actually  naming and shaming someone that did get permission?

i mean there are creators in sl that do get permission from places and can sell in sl..just look at OD designs?

they have permissions for their products they make in second life..

wouldn't it be safer for the one making the site to see just how easy it is to get permissions first?

 

---

I haven't looked at the vendor you mentioned, but generally when someone has 'permission' they do state, "used with permission."

Someone who does not have permission could claim they do but then they'd be adding fraud, which I believe is a criminal offense, to the civil offense of IP violation.

disclaimer: IANAL

[Clarissa Lowell]

Libel laws are much stricter in the UK than in the U.S.

In the U.S. you could say something that heavily hints at the meshes being used without permission and be well within the law. In my opinion. As far as I know. Winky wink.

[GothGirl Demonia]

In general everyone complains about the CopyBot, however bottom Line is that nothing can be done about CopyBot it is here to stay unless LL can actually do something. The problem is that too many people back them up while a lot of people are against it a lot of other people simpyl do not care, say file an AR to LL, and LL doesn't act until a DMCA is filed on Stolen Content well most of the time.

While the CopyBot is a problem there becomes a problem with what I suspect is a Violation of Real Life Intellectual Property people constantly going into their game files I suspect and then they open the mesh files in the program, save them and import them into Second Life I have a lot of programs that I believe can do this I am just not exactly sure how to do it. Anyways legally they need permission to use their work let alone Resell it without consent, while it might not be illegal, maybe the people who created the content in Real Life do not know and if they find out they could File a DMCA, even SUE the person, or even try a Lawsuit against LL, however LL will not really act unless a DMCA is filed, and people like me if I created Rikku from Final Fantasy, and 5 other people created a similar product, I could not DMCA theirs because I don't own legal rights to that work.

Using another persons mesh while they might not have permission I really wouldn't care as much if they used it for personal use, and deleted it from SL if they asked for it to be done, however that is not the case people are profiting other other peoples IP rights more than likely without consent. * however this does not change the Law on IP rights, or TOS.*

See if I uploaded an entire avatar from Mass Effect 3, could you prove that I am not the developer of the game or own rights to that work, of course I don't however can you prove it? And even if so it would require a DMCA for anything to be done.

If you are really bothered by someones work offending someone, the most I can suggest is you Email Bioware for example, or any other game company and inform them that their work is being ripped off and profited by pirates, then maybe they will file a DMCA.

However one other problem remains is the use of Alternate Accounts to upload mesh, people say oh its not possible, how is it not. Linden Lab said that Prepaid Credit Cards can't be used to pay for Second Life Tier, or to get verifed thought mesh, that is a lie, or something they do not understand. If I used a vanilla visa for example, or a throw away plastic card it won't work however there are some reloadable prepaid cards that will work, and using that and false information to the company I can register an account, use another computer from another FREE WI-FI spot upload a bunch of mesh avatars and sell them, then launder the money out to another account and cash out through paypal leaving an untraceable alt from my main, therefore if it gets banned due to Intellectual Property Violations, or a warning on the account, it wouldn't link back to my main. Pretty Simple Right?

So yes all I really know to say is please come up with your own designs, using some Ideas is not bad but try to give the credit where it goes, and respect the Intellectual Property rights of others. I also believe that Linden Lab should actually require a Valid Drivers License, or something as well to be verified before a user can upload mesh, this would prevent what I have said above

As I said as well in General there isn't really anything you can do, as Filing False DMCA claims is illegal, and saying they are not using without permission is illegal, however I can offer a suggestion for both parties.

1. Have a signed agreement with permission to use it or they could always go back on their word if you are using their work and Sue/DMCA reguardless of their word.

2. If you feel work is being used without permission cotact the makers of the game, etc. and ask them yourself because you are concerned, and they will or wont file a DMCA.

3. Libel Laws in the U.S well that can effect some people I have been threatend with such before by a certain group in Second Life, however I had collected much more evidence on them that proved they were guilty of assoications with Copybot, and much more saved, so did they go through with it, Nope. Can they do anything about all the posts created about them by people who raged over it online, well they can file a claim with the site hosting the content, or get a court order for TakeDown/Removal but that is about it, when it comes back to tracing who posted it hiding behind a Ton of proxies, and or proving who specifically posted something about someone else I really hope they have proof because I use programs like Remote Access, Team Viewer, it could have been my brother, My Cat, my Dog, or a hacker who accessed my computer remotely, I even offer proxy servers to friends at times but generally not for use in SL, where my computer acts as a VPS so basically they hide behind my computer which then hides behind other proxies hard to prove so I hope people have the money. Oh and another thing beyond Libel, is Threats in SL I have seen it We are gonna call the FBI because you griefed us, we have Linden Friends blah blah I usually ignore that crap but I do snapshot it and pass it on for the laughs because they are not even from the U.S that I am told or aware of so good luck with all the court fees, and actually getting someone to investigate some random griefer attack with virtual cubes they have bigger things to deal with and would say let LL deal with it unless it was a serious threat, and after all it is the internets, there is Free Wi-Fi everywhere, although it isn't like the RIAA didn't bust down some old grannys door because someone close by was BootLegging torrents the wrong way and got caught they sued her because it was her connection yet she had no part in it.

After all getting rid of one Griefer is like cutting a Worm in half that worm becomes two worms, and every head you continue to cut off another head grows back kinda like the hydra.

Hope some of this helps.