TOS question

[Museling]

Need confirmation. I rp at a sim that has in its rules a disclaimer that says playing in this sim allowes gms to exchange Private Im logs without the permission of the players. Is this legal under the TOS? I would love the confirmation from a linden themselves as I've heard back and forth constantly on this topic.

 

Thank you.

[Vladi Hazelnut]

nope, not legal within the tos. A better way to word it would be that by you agreeing to role play there you allow to have your IM's shared. Even then it might get tricky with LL.

[Museling]

Dosn't that mean that by playing second life you agree to their rules first?

[Marigold Devin]

Read the Terms of Service - that is the official Linden view. You are unlikely to actually get a Linden person respond to you here on the forums. 

In reality, though, even if you do disclose private IMs, and someone submits an abuse report because of that, LL will only usually issue a warning, or a possible one day suspension.  Rarely do people lose their account over this (depends on the content, of course, but once something is said, it cannot be unsaid!).



[Peggy Paperdoll]

The only rules that count are the rules Linden Lab makes.  No one else's rule will ever trump Linden Lab's rules.

[Ceka Cianci]

i answered the same exact word for word post yesterday in this section of the forums..then later to find out  the thread was removed..

then to see it here again..

is this just a game that really bored people are playing with the forums?

make alts and re ask the same questions over and over with pasting from other past threads?

 

anyways  to answer the question again..hopefully not in vain this time hehehe

you have the choice to not take part in that rp if their rules do not appeal to you..

in other words if having to agree to being logged and those logs shared among GM's to take part of their role play is part of their lands rules and you take part of the sims role play..you have agreed to the terms set by the sim..

it doesn't overstep the tos because they ask you for the permission first..they don't intrude on your second life in any way..it is how they  run their sims rp..for it to be no consent it would be leaving you no option to agree or disagree...

don't join and you are not giving them permission..

 

 

[Irene Muni]

You can see more answers in your other thread: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Abuse-and-Griefing/Are-SIM-admins-allowed-to-share-IM-logs-without-permission-if/qaq-p/1354045

[Kenbro Utu]

It seems the real question is "how" is consent obtained.  Just a statement in the estate covenant stating that by entering the sim you give consent for IMs to be shared is no different than the TOS disclaimers people have in their profiles that by entering into an IM with them, you grant such consent.  It seems from past discussions that no one considers that a valid form of consent, aside from those who aspire to use it.  Does a notecard being given to you stating such imply your consent if you stay and participate, or should it require a notecard from yourself stating that you agree?  I just wonder what LL would consider explicit consent in such a situation.  

[Dresden Ceriano]

I'd have to say that it depends on how the IMs are shared.  If they are shared inworld or with LL software (like through the feed or forum PMs), then yes, it's a breach of ToS... if they are shared somewhere else (like through email or some instant messager service), then no, it's not.

I never understand why people don't consider the fact that if something is shared outside of LL's scope, there's absolutely nothing LL can do about it.

...Dres

[Ceka Cianci]

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Kenbro Utu wrote:

It seems the real question is "how" is consent obtained.  Just a statement in the estate covenant stating that by entering the sim you give consent for IMs to be shared is no different than the TOS disclaimers people have in their profiles that by entering into an IM with them, you grant such consent.  It seems from past discussions that no one considers that a valid form of consent, aside from those who aspire to use it.  Does a notecard being given to you stating such imply your consent if you stay and participate, or should it require a notecard from yourself stating that you agree?  I just wonder what LL would consider explicit consent in such a situation.  

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the difference was.. if you partake in their role play..not just landing in the sim..it was said that GMs would be passing it between themselves..

from the sounds of it she was met with rules as she enterd the sim..like most serious role play sims you get tags and rules for the rp..

you are dealing with someones private land that has owners rights and giving the rules to agree to move forward or disagree and not partake..they give the option to give consent or not..

with a disclaimer in someones profile you are still dealing with just the TOS alone because that is still public where we all have the same exact rights..no one user is allowed more rights than the other..

where when we deal with rules to a sim..as long as they are within the tos they can be as strict as they wish..

the only place they messed up and got cocky in their rules is by saying they can share them without permission..when really if role players agree to the rules they have agreed and given consent to have their logs shared between the GM's..

sl is kind of like a smaller version of the net..outside of web sites we are in the public ..but when we enter websites we usually fall under a tos from the site owner that as long as it is within the law is valid..we can agree to that tos or we can leave..

[Ceka Cianci]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I'd have to say that it depends on how the IMs are shared.  If they are shared inworld or with LL software (like through the feed or forum PMs), then yes, it's a breach of ToS... if they are shared somewhere else (like through email or some instant messager service), then no, it's not.

I never understand why people don't consider the fact that if something is shared outside of LL's scope, there's absolutely nothing LL can do about it.

...Dres

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if it is like most RP sims like that..it is shared only by the people that work there..the GM's.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

There is no way to consent to disclosure other than a signed agreement..........fax would probably suffice.  Other than that there's nothing.  Notecards can be fabricated so easily it's almost ridiculous (well it is ridiculous).  Anyone wanting to share IM's and chat logs is skating on very thin ice.........push come to shove they'll loose every time.

 

But, as Dres stated, outside Second Life all bets are off...........LL's jurisdiction ends once anything leaves it's realm of power.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

There is no way to consent to disclosure other than a signed agreement..........fax would probably suffice.  Other than that there's nothing.  Notecards can be fabricated so easily it's almost ridiculous (well it is ridiculous).  Anyone wanting to share IM's and chat logs is skating on very thin ice.........push come to shove they'll loose every time.

 

But, as Dres stated, outside Second Life all bets are off...........LL's jurisdiction ends once anything leaves it's realm of power.

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consent to anything is as easy as agreeing to rules..just as we do when we agree to LL's tos..we do that by clicking agree..

if i land in a sim and am met with rules and decided not to read those rules and moved forward anyways..thats like clicking the agree button on the tos to enter second life without actually reading the tos..i still agreed to their tos and will still fall under the rules..if i didn't agree then i would just not click and then not get in..

now if those logs make it to feeds or forums or anywhere past their GMs and even outside thier sim or even within their sim among others that are not GM's..then it's game on and AR away because it will stick..

they said it is shared only between their GM's..

 

[Museling]

As usual I keep getting mixed answers. Not a single person in these chats are lindens, or work for linden in any way. You may feel you are correct, you may feel the other person isn't correct.

 

But you are not officals and I really would like to know, officaly what the ruling is on such things. Not how to share them outside of SL, Im talking speficifcly if you share logs WITHIN SL without the person's consent to do so. Not if this or if that. Just straight up. You all agree to abide by TOS rules when playing SL, they always trump rules in any and every sim reguardless. None of this you have to agree to play in the sim to their rules. The sim owners FIRST have to agree to TOS to have the sim, or play second life in the first place as I've read over the rules. But as this very thread shows.

 

Everyone has their own -opinion- of the rules. And its usualy people who GM in sims who feel that yes they are allowed to share. And its usualy non gm's, aka: average players. Who feel they cannot share logs.

 

Bias aside I'd love -offical- wording on it, not know it alls.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Yes, we agree to the ToS.  And if we don't we get booted.  But Linden Lab sets the rules.  If LL had in their ToS that anything you say and do in SL will be subject to disclosure to Google or anyone else LL chooses to disclose your private IM's to they'd be very disappointed when the Feds stepped in. 

 

Linden Lab is at the top of the food chain here.........but they are not the top of the food chain in real life.  They cannot violate the laws (the ToS?) of the United States.  And that's where the sim owner are...they are the top of the food chain on their sim...but they ain't at the top in SL.  SL's rules are clear.........they cannot disclose private information  without express consent period.

[Kenbro Utu]

As I had stated previously in the thread that was deleted, this is a user's forum.  All you will get are opinions.  You will not get an official statement from the Lindens here.  You will likely not get an official statement from the Linden's if you file a support ticket.  They just do not make official statements of policy on individual events as a habit.  These "know it alls" are trying to provide you with enough information to make your own judgement, because that is all you can do.  You best quit biting the hand that is trying to feed you.  No one here is obligated to help you, but they are trying, in the only way they can.  

[Vladi Hazelnut]

You don't need to be a LL employee to know the answer to this, its in the Community Standards. Which they call the Big Six.

 

Number 4 of these rules reads as this.

 

1. Disclosure

   Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed. Remotely monitoring conversations in Second Life, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without the participants' consent are all prohibited.    

 

That seems pretty cut and dried to me. Unless someone specifically asks you "Is it ok if I share our chat logs with others?" Then it is not allowed. And if they asked you this and you agreed, either through chat, IM or a notecard LL could look it up. They can see all the chat and IMs, it all gets logged on their end. Same with a notecard, they know who sent what to who so you really couldn't fake it. Just send a notecard saying you agree and make it no modify. You will be logged as the person who sent it and since it was no mod the person can't modify the wording.

Simply putting it in their rules for the Sim, or having it spammed to you when you land is NOT consent. You would have to physically agree to it either in chat or via a notecard

Now the question is would LL really do anything about it if you reported them? Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, it is all up to them to decide, if they even read the AR.

And if it were me running the role play Sim I still wouldn't risk sharing it in world. It would be much easier to share the information via Messenger or Skype where LL has no control over it.

[Dillon Levenque]

You're almost certainly not going to get an answer here from LL. Even when there were frequently Lindens posting on the Forum they usually did not answer direct questions; they just commented that something might need to be looked into. That being said, the people that have answered here have done so to the best of their knowledge. I didn't see anyone that looked like a 'know-it-all'.

In any case you have the answer to your real question already. Are you okay with knowing your IM's will be shared with someone other than the recipient? If the answer is 'No' then that RP sim is not for you.

[Elle Benusconi]

Play and abide by the sim rules or leave seems to be the consensus view and I would have to say that's true.   I know this won't help answer your question but, it raises some interesting questions.

Looking at it from the sim owners angle, simply handing someone a notecard wouldn't be a valid waiver of rights.  The only way they could totally cover themselves would be to have the RPers join a group to play.   In the group charter it would have to be clearly stated that:  "By joining this group and participating in RP on this sim, all participants agree that their IMs may be logged and shared as the Owners and their representatives may deem necessary."  But even then, I think it would be incumbent upon LL to verify the purported logs were true and correct if a dispute arose and an abuse report were filed.   It may be a no win situation for the sim owner.

The concept of an "Implied Consent" under any other circumstances would likely be held invalid in a U.S. Federal Court under current standards (which would have jurisdiction in any legal disputes in such matters).  As it would in the majority of State Courts. 

Reasonably, it seems unlikely that something this trivial would go that far.   But any idiot with a few hundred dollars to spare can certainly file a lawsuit which disrupts things for all involved.  It happens thousands of times a day.  At times we U.S. Citizens seem to be a bunch of very litigious a-holes.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

 

anyways  to answer the question again..hopefully not in vain this time hehehe

you have the choice to not take part in that rp if their rules do not appeal to you..

in other words if having to agree to being logged and those logs shared among GM's to take part of their role play is part of their lands rules and you take part of the sims role play..you have agreed to the terms set by the sim..

it doesn't overstep the tos because they ask you for the permission first..they don't intrude on your second life in any way..it is how they  run their sims rp..for it to be no consent it would be leaving you no option to agree or disagree...

don't join and you are not giving them permission..

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You could take part in the RP, they would then share the IMs, someone finds out and ARs it, and LLs is unlikely to even care about their silly rule.

For a reason why consider a rule like this: By agreeing to work here, you agree to give up your right to a minimum wage.

Or better: By choosing to live in this apartment complex, you agree to have your phone wiretapped and for the management to install webcams in your shower.

- Try being the employer or apartment manager when someone brings one of those to court. Its very dangerous to allow people to 'waive' many rights - they will end up in situations where they are stuck having to waive them.

The choice to RP in a sim might seem entirely voluntary and therefore a reasonable exception - but where do you draw that line? How soon before 'everything' becomes reasonable to get waived.

Spreading your IMs around has -no rational relation- to RPing in a sim, so it cannot be justified on even a flimsy excuse. Though... 'required to wear our RP HUD' is an example that is something related to theme, and therefore would be a valid waiver for that locality assuming it infringes only to the extent needed for the RP.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Museling wrote:

 

 

Bias aside I'd love -offical- wording on it, not know it alls.

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then call them..because you are in the wrong area to get a linden

[Vladi Hazelnut]

Simply putting it in the group charter would not do any good either. That is no different than putting a disclaimer in your profile. You need to get consent/permission from each individual separately so you would have a log of them agreeing to it. And then depending on how LL wants to view it, that may only be for one instance, not every IM or chat you make while you are there. LL may view it as you need consent every time you share the information.

I think the best bet would be call or write a letter to LL to see exactly what their stance is on this. And honestly it could vary depending on who reads the AR.

[Museling]

How exaxctly to I call them? Im not filling out an AR report, the only lines of communication I know of are AR and the billing support line. What are the contact details to get in contact with a linden?

[Ceka Cianci]

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Museling wrote:

How exaxctly to I call them? Im not filling out an AR report, the only lines of communication I know of are AR and the billing support line. What are the contact details to get in contact with a linden?

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945 Battery Street

San Francisco, CA 94111

 

Phone:   (415) 243-9000

Fax:        (415) 243-9045

Email:   support@secondlife.com

Customer support phone number (All Countries): +44 2033620268

Toll-Free Support Number for UK, Germany, France, Japan, Spain, Brazil, and Portugal: +0080071237123

 

also there is twitter..

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

Yes, we agree to the ToS.  And if we don't we get booted.  But Linden Lab sets the rules.  If LL had in their ToS that anything you say and do in SL will be subject to disclosure to Google or anyone else LL chooses to disclose your private IM's to they'd be very disappointed when the Feds stepped in. 

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well they do have a privacy policy up..in that they explain about the ways information is collected and used..also in their tos as well..

it they change that policy they have to make it known..otherwise the state of CA could step in...

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

Linden Lab is at the top of the food chain here.........but they are not the top of the food chain in real life.  They cannot violate the laws (the ToS?) of the United States.  And that's where the sim owner are...they are the top of the food chain on their sim...but they ain't at the top in SL.  SL's rules are clear.........they cannot disclose private information  without express consent

period.

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you may be suprized at how thin federal laws are on this matter..and how different state laws are..most states only one party involved needs to give legal consent or permission to share a conversation..in 12 states..CA being one of them ..all parties involved need to give consent..legal consent. that comes in a few forms.

can you show me where LL's TOS says Express consent only? or any laws  for that matter that would be federal or state(mainly CA because it is the strictest state there is on this matter ) that say express consent is the only consent that would be needed to collect and share information or conversations??

i'm serious..i would like to read them..i've got exactly 13 tabs open on firefox and i can't seem to find a one lol..i do love reading up on these things and hunting this stuff down..it kills the night time boredom i get when everyone else is asleep lol

Aaanyways...

all i see with the law is this..they need consent.. and also the web service collecting and sharing  would need a privacy policy posted up where it can be seen..

lol i can see that being a pain in the butt for sim owners with services sharing logs and information lol

and also it is not considered sharing until it leaves the organization that collected it..

LL's grid is where many servers come together where people can obtain web space from the company selling to their customers for their customers web services or 3d websites..

LL only asks for consent..laws i am still looking to find any that require only one form of consent..

but it does look like those sims offering a service that will be collecting information will be needing to follow the one below..that or i am over tired and my night vision is fading away LOL

too much tea i'm guessing hehehehe

Online Privacy Protection Act of 2003 - Business and Professions Code sections 22575-22579. This law requires operators of commercial web sites or online services that collect personal information on California residents through a web site to conspicuously post a privacy policy on the site and to comply with its policy. The privacy policy must, among other things, identify the categories of personally identifiable information collected about site visitors and the categories of third parties with whom the operator may share the information. An operator is in violation for failure to post a policy within 30 days of being notified of noncompliance, or if the operator either knowingly and willfully or negligently and materially fails to comply with the provisions of its policy. This law takes effect July 1, 2004.

 

anyways it's just another one of many our famous discussions Peggy lol

i really would like to read what you have found because i have been wracking my brains and browser to find what you are saying would be needed..

i don't care about being right or wrong..i just want to be able to give accurate information to stop any misinformation in future threads..

mainly because there are a lot of misunderstandings on my part at times and on others..

i'm never too old to learn something new..and after all this hunting..i want some closure on this disclosure stuff..lol i've gone around the web so much tonight that i don't know if i am at the front door or the back door LOL

i would feel much better if i did see them say express consent..so you would be doing me a favor right now hehehehehe

i honestly mean that lol my eyes are all puffy from reading hehehehehe