Reeva Hax Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 It was too good to last. Sigh. ( I just had - as merchant - a 1-2 hour delay in a two item delivery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 That might be a shopping cart related glitch, and I've started another Jira, specifically for shopping cart load fails. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-4457 Mr. Rodvik said he would have the commerce team look into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Lasher Oh wrote: I prefer to preserve what semblance of sanity I have left rather than accelerate the the degradation process by collaborating in the messy hell hole they call a Jira. The whole Jira system is a confused farce and a PR con created to make it look as if LL are paying heed to bug reports whilst systematically doing what they have always done - mainly , address those issues they feel like dealing with. I've observed over the years that the best way to get LL to react to a problem is to kick up an unholy stink everywhere else - so that it is both embarrassing and impossible for them to ignore. The quicker the Jira farce is disassembled the better - but I won't be holding my breath for that. ^L^ Used to be on the other side of the fence, believing that if we could shut the "complainers" up, that cooler heads and constructive feedback would prevail. The reality: We lost office hours, situation hasn't improved in a year, delivery problems got worse, replacement system intended to fix everything (DD) wasn't the biggest problem after all and takes a year or more to implement, delivery problems in-world haven't gotten better yet and now we have llGiveInventory() with a block that hints that new inventory work isn't up to being able to handle the load and therefore must be choked further. Given up on Jira, because at the end of the day the work gets done or it doesn't. Came here to escape the RL stress of being the boss, and having to ask questions like "do you want to work, or do you want to go home?", "can you handle this or do I need to replace you?", etc. Thanks LL, for bringing that special brand of ineptness back home to my virtual experience. Have yet to see a pro company that can't filter its own bug reports and figure out what to work on themselves without needing voting and hand-holding by their users. How many bugs need votes and watches and fixes? Clue: All of them. Does seem to be true that Jira is more a placebo than a working mechanism, especially as the company has their own internal Jira or list of bugs not available to the public, which doesn't get published and isn't up for voting or watching. Hopefully now that Rod did see and respond he's got enough of a pair to show them the way or show them the door. Throw the fluff and TAO out the door and make the features work properly. Don't need babysitting by users once a bug is reported, just need to fix it. Odd to me that the "complainers" are as justified as the ones who play nice according to the placebo systems, and generally correct in their methods. I think "farce" pretty much sums it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 If it involves running a "campaign", consider it officially started. I'll be knocking doors this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Lasher Oh wrote: I prefer to preserve what semblance of sanity I have left rather than accelerate the the degradation process by collaborating in the messy hell hole they call a Jira. The whole Jira system is a confused farce and a PR con created to make it look as if LL are paying heed to bug reports whilst systematically doing what they have always done - mainly , address those issues they feel like dealing with. I've observed over the years that the best way to get LL to react to a problem is to kick up an unholy stink everywhere else - so that it is both embarrassing and impossible for them to ignore. The quicker the Jira farce is disassembled the better - but I won't be holding my breath for that. ^L^ Your solution on the best hope on how to get LL to respond to a problem or work on a new feature wanted/needed by us is exactly what I have been saying for a long time. In fact I mentioned that to Mickey in another JIRA-Promoting thread that is active now. I said that all the votes in the world will not be the factor that makes LL decide if they will or will not put effort behind a JIRA. Nor will the age of a Jira (hence my poster child 4 year old JIRA that to date has not been action). LL has their own internal priorities on which Jira they will focus on and over the years of me being here it has become clear that the method with the highest success ratio is the method you just said. PUBLICLY EMBARRASS LL ON A BUG THAT SHOULD BE FIX. My 4 year old JIRA was not even looked at by a LL support person until it was 3.5 years old and only because I went on a campaign to tell anyone that would listen in Twitter and these forums (tweeted Rod directly) how embarrassing it is for a bug that impacts the user experience of most users in one way or another has not even been looked at for 3.5 years. I also talked to my friends at Phoenix who also agreed and hated this long standing bug and said they would investigate the possible root cause. Then I flung that PR around that a 3rd party has to solve LL's own problems The campaign sorta worked as Rod must have quietly told Oz Linden to make a presence on the Jira and make it look like LL was finally going to do something about the bug. Oz asked for our help on showing him the bug (which is very easy to do). We showed him... but sadly that was the last we heard of Oz or LL since. But.... the point I wanted to make was that only through LL embarrassment can you get LL to take action. The Jira system itself is exactly what Dart said.... a placebo. Ohhh.... to promote my poster child JIRA... It is... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Dartagan Shepherd wrote: Lasher Oh wrote: I prefer to preserve what semblance of sanity I have left rather than accelerate the the degradation process by collaborating in the messy hell hole they call a Jira. The whole Jira system is a confused farce and a PR con created to make it look as if LL are paying heed to bug reports whilst systematically doing what they have always done - mainly , address those issues they feel like dealing with. I've observed over the years that the best way to get LL to react to a problem is to kick up an unholy stink everywhere else - so that it is both embarrassing and impossible for them to ignore. The quicker the Jira farce is disassembled the better - but I won't be holding my breath for that. ^L^ Used to be on the other side of the fence, believing that if we could shut the "complainers" up, that cooler heads and constructive feedback would prevail. The reality: We lost office hours, situation hasn't improved in a year, delivery problems got worse, replacement system intended to fix everything (DD) wasn't the biggest problem after all and takes a year or more to implement, delivery problems in-world haven't gotten better yet and now we have llGiveInventory() with a block that hints that new inventory work isn't up to being able to handle the load and therefore must be choked further. Given up on Jira, because at the end of the day the work gets done or it doesn't. Came here to escape the RL stress of being the boss, and having to ask questions like "do you want to work, or do you want to go home?", "can you handle this or do I need to replace you?", etc. Thanks LL, for bringing that special brand of ineptness back home to my virtual experience. Have yet to see a pro company that can't filter its own bug reports and figure out what to work on themselves without needing voting and hand-holding by their users. How many bugs need votes and watches and fixes? Clue: All of them. Does seem to be true that Jira is more a placebo than a working mechanism, especially as the company has their own internal Jira or list of bugs not available to the public, which doesn't get published and isn't up for voting or watching. Hopefully now that Rod did see and respond he's got enough of a pair to show them the way or show them the door. Throw the fluff and TAO out the door and make the features work properly. Don't need babysitting by users once a bug is reported, just need to fix it. Odd to me that the "complainers" are as justified as the ones who play nice according to the placebo systems, and generally correct in their methods. I think "farce" pretty much sums it up. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rya Nitely Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 What stress? Preserving semblances of sanity? OMG people get out into the real world. I spend most of my time here in SL, creating and talking to friends. No matter what issues the marketplace has had I continue to make a profit, and I have never noticed a negative impact on my sales, which is surprising but there you have it. Customers continue to buy from the MP as much as ever, and now they have learnt to wait for their order to arrive. It is an inconvenience but nevertheless they put up with it. Maybe these customers are aware that this inconvenience is nothing compared to the bullsh*t they have to put up with in the real world. SL is still for fun. Out of every 30 sales I would get one IM for redelivery, not because the delivery failed but because it is delayed and the customer doesn't know it. This is NOT stress. This is relaxation. It is an opportunity for some people to use skills and be rewarded for those skills. I know what stress is, I live through it everyday when I am forced to face my rl job. But no, I'm not stupid enough to give up that job no matter how much I dislike it, and make SL my only income. If you chose to do that then live quietly with that choice. It was your own. I state again, SL has given us an opportunity to use and develop our skills, and make some profit out of it. As well as get the pat on the back that we may lack in rl. It is both rewarding and therapeutic for many people. I'm grateful for what it is, and I put up with the faults. Because the benefits outweigh those faults by a mile. So yes, raise issues but talking about stress and losing sanity is just crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rya Nitely Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Dartagan Shepherd wrote: Came here to escape the RL stress of being the boss, and having to ask questions like "do you want to work, or do you want to go home?", "can you handle this or do I need to replace you?", etc. You want to know what STRESS is? Try being one of Dartagan's subordinates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Rya Nitely wrote: Dartagan Shepherd wrote: Came here to escape the RL stress of being the boss, and having to ask questions like "do you want to work, or do you want to go home?", "can you handle this or do I need to replace you?", etc. You want to know what STRESS is? Try being one of Dartagan's subordinates. I don't have subordinates, I have people that can do what they say they can, which are pure gold and treated as such and those who can't, which don't last long enough to stress. Very few but simple rules. Here's another one with years of usage: "no call, no show, no job". Meaning that if for any reason you can't make it into work, you call in or you come in to pick up your last paycheck at your convenience. But never once have I been called unfair, or afraid to do anything I would ask others to do, including cleaning toilets. But no, generally not the milk and cookies type, more the results type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 well, yeah, duh....it's an SL fantasy, but generally would not talk about it here, Rya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Rya Nitely wrote: What stress? Preserving semblances of sanity? OMG people get out into the real world. I spend most of my time here in SL, creating and talking to friends. No matter what issues the marketplace has had I continue to make a profit, and I have never noticed a negative impact on my sales, which is surprising but there you have it. Customers continue to buy from the MP as much as ever, and now they have learnt to wait for their order to arrive. It is an inconvenience but nevertheless they put up with it. Maybe these customers are aware that this inconvenience is nothing compared to the bullsh*t they have to put up with in the real world. SL is still for fun. Out of every 30 sales I would get one IM for redelivery, not because the delivery failed but because it is delayed and the customer doesn't know it. This is NOT stress. This is relaxation. It is an opportunity for some people to use skills and be rewarded for those skills. I know what stress is, I live through it everyday when I am forced to face my rl job. But no, I'm not stupid enough to give up that job no matter how much I dislike it, and make SL my only income. If you chose to do that then live quietly with that choice. It was your own. I state again, SL has given us an opportunity to use and develop our skills, and make some profit out of it. As well as get the pat on the back that we may lack in rl. It is both rewarding and therapeutic for many people. I'm grateful for what it is, and I put up with the faults. Because the benefits outweigh those faults by a mile. So yes, raise issues but talking about stress and losing sanity is just crap. So let me put this another way, that last was a bit knee-jerk. I also enjoy SL business as an escape from RL. I'm also in profit here. Not stress so much as this, in RL you professionally handle what needs doing right? A supplier screws up an order 3 times and you might be inclined to be on the phone asking what the hell the problem is over there and how can we resolve this so it doesn't happen again. Enter SL business. Love it, no stress in SL comes close to RL. However, it does cost me roughly L$60,000/week to pay a support staff to do nothing but handle problems that are SL related that have nothing to do with flaws in our own product, or at least anything that can be avoided. After over a year, I still don't have a clear answer from LL as to whether or not basic accounts get support for coalesced objects, which isn't uncommon with breedables to have batches of them picked up or returned as a large group too big to be taken out of inventory and rezzed. Conflicting answers on that one from LL. While these things are not stress per se, it does put me in the position of being thrown into RL mode, where these problems can and should be dealt with. Call it breaking immersion where it doesn't need to be broken via imcompetence that I'd rather not have to see as a customer here for entertainment and fun dabbling in virtual business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Rya...take your little boats and [edited to prevent being banned from forums]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 History would indicate that more problems have been solved by intelligent people quietly working through a problem by collecting and examining evidence and testing rational theories, than by baying mobs waving pitchforks. Yes, you can apply political pressure to give a particular task a higher priority, but that doesn't change the evidence and processing requirements of scientific method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Zanara Zenovka wrote: History would indicate that more problems have been solved by intelligent people quietly working through a problem by collecting and examining evidence and testing rational theories, than by baying mobs waving pitchforks. Yes, you can apply political pressure to give a particular task a higher priority, but that doesn't change the evidence and processing requirements of scientific method. OK Zanara, I'm sorry but that statement is only true coming from those that are generally "friends of LL Staff". But I am gonna give you a chance to proof to me and everyone else that you are right. Here is the JIRA that is over 4 years old. It has been posted it has been watched and voted upon. It has had countless pressure placed upon it. It is CLEARLY a bug and can be repeated countless times over and over. It is... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4018 Here is your chance to prove me and lasher and everyone else that does not believe you that you are right. Take this 4 year old Jira and use your "intelligence" and work "quietly" through the problem to get LL to work a Jira that no one else has been able to get to action. You can shut me up 100% on this topic if you can show me how you can use a calm rational approach to get this long standing problem resolve. I am pretty sure that you will either back down from this challenge because you know full well that what you are sayin has little truth or you will fail trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 "intelligent" people as opposed to what? may I ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 You Are Wrong Because: For your convenience, I have circled the brain malfunction(s) that most closely resemble(s) the one(s) you recently made on the topic of (fill in topic): 1. AMAZINGLY BAD ANALOGY Example: You can train a dog to fetch a stick. Therefore, you can train a potato to dance. 10. ANYTHING YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IS EASY TO DO Example: If you have the right tools, how hard could it be to generate nuclear fission at home? 19. REACHING BIZARRE CONCLUSIONS WITHOUT ANY INFORMATION Example: The car won’t start. I’m certain the spark plugs have been stolen by rogue clowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Would "intelligence" include figuring out the following? 1) a correlation between dates of "activity" and a response? 2) a correlation between a spirit of cooperation and a response? 3) insight into collaboration and cooperation? 4) setting aside personal issues for a goal? 5) doing the math? on numbers achieved after a certain date? 6) seeing the whole picture? outside of your forum circle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 LOL so Zanara.... basically your response to my challenge is "No I wont take it on" Wise move because you know as well as I do that calm cool quiet diplomacy with LL to get a problem fixed has proven to be the most ineffective way to get LL to take action. The JIRA I showed you did not need any further Customer problem analysis. It has been proven and isolated and it is very well known what the bug is. This problem has just sat in the LL JIRA for over 4 years rotting. None of your quiet diplomacy and calm cool resolution and what ever else you suggested will get LL to work on this 4 year old JIRA. I know that. Most other LL Customers know that. And you know that. But again.... shut me up and prove me wrong Zanara and take on the challenge. Show everyone that LL is a customer service oriented business and this 4 year old jira was just handled poorly by us customers and that you have some secret better way to get this JIRA resolved by LL. This JIRA is stuck until LL finally agree to pick it up and fix it. Its a developer bug - LL knows it and they also know what the bug is. They just wont ever solve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Reality is that they will cherry pick the issues that they want to work on, whether motivated by problem size or commercials. They can fix all of the bugs in all of the JIRA's but there also comes a time that "new shiny" needs to be offered to attract interest. So given a choice between putting developer resource on completing some new functionality or fixing a 4 year old JIRA issue with ~30 watches, you can see why they effort goes elsewhere. I suppose on that JIRA issue the workaround is to rescale the texture outside of SL and import back again, which will work where the texture scale doesn't have to be dynamic. It is frustrating when a pet issue isn't fixed, we all have them, some do get fixed, others don't and that won't change, the only thing that's within our control is how we deal with the assumption that our pet JIRA won't be fixed. Anyway, the biggest message today is:- TO AVOID DISAPPOINTMENT ON VALENTINES DAY, IF YOU'RE BUYING A GIFT VIA MP, ORDER A WEEK EARLY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: Reality is that they will cherry pick the issues that they want to work on, whether motivated by problem size or commercials. They can fix all of the bugs in all of the JIRA's but there also comes a time that "new shiny" needs to be offered to attract interest. So given a choice between putting developer resource on completing some new functionality or fixing a 4 year old JIRA issue with ~30 watches, you can see why they effort goes elsewhere. I suppose on that JIRA issue the workaround is to rescale the texture outside of SL and import back again, which will work where the texture scale doesn't have to be dynamic. It is frustrating when a pet issue isn't fixed, we all have them, some do get fixed, others don't and that won't change, the only thing that's within our control is how we deal with the assumption that our pet JIRA won't be fixed. Anyway, the biggest message today is:- TO AVOID DISAPPOINTMENT ON VALENTINES DAY, IF YOU'RE BUYING A GIFT VIA MP, ORDER A WEEK EARLY!!! Exactly Sassy.... It really is the reason why the JIRA should remove / disable the WATCHES & VOTES function. All it is is a placeba put in by LL to make those LL customers that actually take the time and effort to report a bug to make them believe things will happen if their is enough support for it. So as LL ignores the JIRA... they know their customers will be distracted in trying to gather votes for some magical threshold of votes that doesnt exist. As for a pet bug being fixed or not.... there is a difference between being impatient for a bug to be fixed that you care about and one that basically is all but abandoned by LL. The least that LL could do if they had any care about serving their customer is to basically go to JIRAs that they clearly have no intention whatsoever to work on (a 4 year old bug would count) and close it with a message saying "we understand this is a bug but we do not have any intent to fix this bug - so please stop hoping that we will". The issue is that LL is a company made up of developers that only like working ont shiny new features and are completely bored fixing old bugs. Its not fun to fix existing features - no matter how much the customer wants it fixed. So they just keep putting it off and focus on the new features. You are right Sassy that there comes a time when shiny new features need to be focused on to attract new customers.... but with LL most of thier focus is on shiny new features. They have no balance between new and maintenance. Look at MP... LL put all their focus on getting an overhaul of Xstreet out the door. But once the rough system was deployed, they have spent almost NO effort fixing the missing functions ans features that the initial MP didnt address. Didnt matter that the merchants wanted them fixed. They have been ignored by the commerce group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Oh good grief Mickey - please take a pill. Read back and see what's actually *been said* in this thread - everything else is totally from your own imagination. And Toy, you're just doing your usual patently transparent strategy of picking a few words at random from another person's statement and twisting them into something entirely unrecognisable which you can then refute. Really, no one with half a brain falls for this stuff. Your "wwwah they didn't fix *my* Jira" argument is akin to writing ranting letters every week to your member of parliament on some pet topic, and then declaring democracy futile when they fail to bring results. Which wins you... Number...26! 26. JUDGING THE WHOLE BY ONE OF ITS CHARACTERISTICS Example: The sun causes sunburns. Therefore, the planet would be better off without the sun. Honestly, the two of you should get married or something - you could communicate in histrionic non sequiturs all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 lol - you're learning! take a pill? hmmm, sounds familiar. I'm persistent and relentless. Don't really care to take a pill for that right now. It works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 ROFL ohhh Zanara... it is so amazing how a forum posting like you that does all she can to look good in front of her beloved LL Gods.... would stoop to these levels in your post here and the one posting I will deal with very shortly on the other thread. So Zanara makes a lame unproven statement about how problems can best be resolved in LL - against the popular belief that JIRAs have been proven to be an utter joke.... and I give her a perfect challenge to prove herself and her statement on a perfect example of one of countless LL neglected JIRAs.... and how does Znara respond? 1) She doesnt take on my challenge (predicted as she knew full well that she her logic would fail) 2) She plays the typical lame debating trick of "a good defense is a strong offense" ... You get off the topic and start personally attacking me - once again. Purely Childish Zanara.... I guess my point has been clearly proven thanks to you. (now to deal with your more serious attack against me and my business on the other thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 you should be flattered - she has studied - and is using your tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I used SLM today and it took a very long time for the delivery to arrive. Nothing is fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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