Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Gavin Hird wrote: No, they don't do fine with a hit and miss plan. SecondLife is not a web site. Stop treating it like that! What you're trying to say here, I think, is that marketplace is ruining the log ins. I'll have to disagree and say that marketplace as a web presence is saving second life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 The massive focus on the marketplace with new residents ruins the retention, because it gives new residents less incentive to explore in-world. To some extent it makes it look just like another shopping site, only that it sells pointless virtual products in a phony currency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Gavin Hird wrote: The massive focus on the marketplace with new residents ruins the retention, because it gives new residents less incentive to explore in-world. To some extent it makes it look just like another shopping site, only that it sells pointless virtual products in a phony currency. You all are complaining about massive amounts of listings on the marketplace. Do you understand that each one of those holds a placement in the google search? Each one? Each topic? Each keyword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 So what? Still loosing 5.2 million new signups per year. ... and I did not complain about massive listing, but massive focus. Completely different issue. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Gavin Hird wrote: The massive focus on the marketplace with new residents ruins the retention, because it gives new residents less incentive to explore in-world. To some extent it makes it look just like another shopping site, only that it sells pointless virtual products in a phony currency. I don't know any newbies who think they can explore on marketplace, lol. You kinda got to go in-world to do that and even the most basic new user realizes this. I do know some that like to *shop there(though I know far more non-newbies who do that), but this isn't preventing them from being IN second life. In fact there are a lot of other factors that keep folks from coming back. While shopping on marketplace may keep *some people from bouncing around inworld to find a store, it certainly doesn't stop the majority. In fact, many of the folks right here in this thread(and lots like it) have said they USE marketplace as a way to get around in-world, because in-world search is beyond ridiculous. So it's actually helping them find the stores they are looking for. The concurrency rate is, well, sucky, at least at times, but freebies are most definitely not the top or even a big, culprit there. There's just far too many other obstacles in the way. Take the recent change of no longer having a basic account, and an advanced one...that whole mistake played a huge role in why some chose not to come back. We even saw lots of threads on the forums from confused newbies, because of that issue. Glad they did away with that. But LL has made an awful lot of stupid decisions that have had a much larger impact on the concurrency rates being what they are, than any of us merchants could ever make. Lack of proper, or at least better, documentation on the ins and outs of sl and a really great new user guide, also contributes to lack of interest. I mean really we could sit here all day and describe why some choose not to stay. Freebies, in and of themselves(especially freebies on marketplace, since that's what this topic was originally about) are NOT high on that list, they just aren't. If SL isn't working right for me, for whatever reason, it's not going to be the freebies on MP that keep me from coming back. If anything being able to find what I want on MP and either buying there, or going to the shop in-world, might actually help to *keep me, despite whatever issues I'm facing. I run into newbies a lot, mostly because of the communities I am a part of. We get lots of new folks in tem all the time. I came to sl with a crap ton of other people from an online game that went kaput, too, and even though it's been over three years we still see them trickle in here and there. So I do actually talk to new people a lot. My opinions aren't just based on some theories I pulled out of thin air. I actually ask people why they don't like sl, why they won't come back, why they won't stay. Never once have I heard someone say it was because of the freebies, lol.(that sounds simply silly, even to say). Do freebies have an impact on in-world shopping? Yes, and no one can, or would, deny that. Is the impact entirely bad? Nope, and no one can deny that either. The impact has actually helped some folks. There are a lot of shops I never would have found in-world, if I hadn't seen their stuff on MP first, and in most cases it was a free or low-cost item I had a specific need for. Most of the people I know and come across don't really care for MP to begin with, lol, but they do use it as a search tool. Whether it's a free item, or one with a cost, it definitely helps having that presence somewhere other than just in-world, for a LOT of merchants. Some people don't seem to understand this. I don't know why some are putting such a heavy weight on freebies(and the merchants who offer them) alone, when there is much more at play here. Even without freebies, concurrency would be crap right now. But at the same time, without freebies on mp, some merchants would never get seen at all. Like I said some fifty million pages back...everyone has to start somewhere. For some, it's with free, or low-cost items. I don't really understand how telling them they're basically ruining sl(because it's hard to see any other message in these 30some odd pages than that), is going to help Sl grow, or promote a better merchant community either-for that matter. Telling people their ways are going to be, or are, the downfall of SL certainly isn't the best way to say.."but we welcome all", that's for sure. I'd rather see more merchants on MP and in-world, whether it's with free items or non-free items. The more merchants there are, the more products there are offered, the more people that remain in-world trying to find a use for said products. Will it always work out fantastically? Heck no, it's business, and that's just the reality. But cutting out the little guy because he sells something for $0L that others are trying to sell for say $50L, isn't the solution to the concurrency problem. In fact, it won't help it at all. It'll push the little guy away....one less person in sl. Multiply that by however many little guys there are, and you've got an even bigger problem. If LL would fix all the other crap that's wrong with Sl, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, though. So we really should be pointing the finger at them, not the merchants who don't follow our own ideals, price guides, or whatever. They're not the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Rene Erlanger wrote: Madeliefste Oh wrote: I think that removing camping from the grid has had a big influence on the long tail of the market. The majority of the SL residents are not willing to spend any real money in SL. In those day when it was so easy for new residents to make some small amounts, there was a large newbie market to sell to. Because even the people that didn't bring in money, made at least money roll. By forbidding camping LL cut of a piece of this long tail.. that part of the market where small guys make small bucks. When a happy camper in 2007 or so was willing to pay 20 L$ for a funny t-shirt, but this funny shirt started to loose it's value, when this easy way of money making for newcomers was no longer around. That was so true....yet another Jack Linden b#ll**bleep** policy change! :matte-motes-sour: Whilst i supported the removal of Traffic Bots or not counting them as Traffic.....i did not want to see the end of real avatar camping. It stands to reason that it would impact the in-world economy sooner or later. Although I never camped myself.....i heard lots of nice stories, where groups of campers formed friendships that are still maintained to this day! It was a good way to meet people and interact....not all were afk. Yep. I met one of my friends with camping as well. But I have another story as well, from my own experience. I used to camp a lot in a clothing shop, it was a funny camping device where you became a player in a 3 peoples music band. This shop owner had put no restriction on how much money you could make in a certain time limit. So you could leave your avatar there for days if you wanted. Unless you crashed the counter just kept ticking. One thing I did, when I was on the edge between camping and making my own money, is buy an expensive dress in her shop. Because I liked the dress, but also to give the shopowner back some of the money she had so generously donate to me. About one and a half year later, when I was looking across the grid for shop space for my fashion brand, this merchant crossed my path again. She had moved her shop to a bigger space, not only the shop had grown a lot, she had also added a mall outsite her shop, and she had two or three shops that were open for rent. I took one. The sales were never very high there, just a bit above breaking even. When LL bought the marketplace within the shortest time I had to give up on most of my satelite shops, because they were not making enough any more to pay the rent. So I got rid of most of them. And I kept a few, the ones that where still profitable and this one. Not because it was still profitable, but more to give this girl still a chance to improve her traffic. My only reason to do so was because she once made it possible for me to start up in SL by sponsering me with camping money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Madeliefste Oh wrote: Gavin Hird wrote: The net effect is not the same, because it keeps concurrency low and therefore new signups (16k per day) largely find a ghost town, where there before were campers (and such.) – So they leave, never to return. – Over 5 million per year turn their backs within the first hour. I agree that getting rid of camping was a big mistake. Yeah, getting rid of camping keeps the concurrency low. But how do freebies on the marketplace keep the concurrency low? One doesn't have to log in, .to TP in-world and collect the same Freebies. There are a couple of very large in-world Groups for Freebies that do exactly that.......Merchants would advertise in group about their Freebies......and swarms of avatars would land and collect these Freebies...and crash their sims in the process! PS The last part was a joke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Yo Rene - someone just put up a Racing Course on that lot I turned in. Cool! This is going to be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Gavin Hird wrote: Yes you could, but the difference is that new residents are sent directly to the marketplace from the viewer menu, and therefore may not even have to set foot in-world to shop. Combine that with the massive amounts of free to nearly free items that preceeding any commercial products for the most common search items, and you have a scenario for diminishing returns. Select top sellers in Marketplace with all ratings ticked....and i'll bet the majority will be Meeroo products, Freebies & dollarbies in top 36 items (3 pages of 12 items) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Tari Landar wrote: But cutting out the little guy because he sells something for $0L that others are trying to sell for say $50L, isn't the solution to the concurrency problem. In fact, it won't help it at all. It'll push the little guy away....one less person in sl. Multiply that by however many little guys there are, and you've got an even bigger problem. That is exactly my problem, it will push people away. The power of creating is not something to take lighty. Though there are people who "just slap some textures on some prims" to make some easy money, the most part of people who are creating are involved with their act of creating. And though the product that comes out might not meet everybodies taste or quality standard, it still is the results of someone's creative labour. Someone working with Gimp for the first time may be as proud of what comes out as a designer with 20 years of Photoshop experience. And when you are proud of your result you want to show it. It's simple as that. Now when you take away this possibility for people to show this result of their creative proces, you are going to make a lot of people unhappy. Also highen the barriers for people to create or sell in attempt to protect your own market, will in be unsatisfying for the majority of SL merchants. Because the majority exists of small merchants. We must give them no reason at all to leave the grid out of frustration that 'elitist merchants' try to put them in a different class or rank. We all had a day where we for the first time opened a graphical design program, or learned how to write a code, or rezzed our first prim. Just because people are not skilled yet, it is no reason to exclude them for the tools that are available for each and everybody. Apart from that they are active participators in the SL economy, they might even be your customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I have never said to remove freebies from the marketplace, but give them less focus and attention. Free items are up to a certain point important, but for SecondLife to survice, the content creators must in sum be profitable enough to make it worthwhile to support new technologies such as mesh. The investment to get started with mesh is substantial. They must also be profitable enough to find it worhtwhile to pay tier. Without tier, LL would be out of business tomorrow. New residents are immediately pointed to the marketplace for their shopping. The large amount of immediate available free content hurts in-world concurrency because the new residents (16k per day), now have significantly less incentive to explore in-world than before. All new residents (as soon as they come in contact with the gen-pop) will want to improve their avatar and their looks. Since they at this point in time has not bought in to the in-world market economy and are reluctant to spend, their attention is turned to the marketplace to satisfy their needs. Here they can siginficantly improve their avatar without spending a Linden dollar, or even setting foot in another sim. In essence, they stall in on the website, when they should be active in-world. Within the timeframe of this first resident hour, most also leave, so something goes significantly wrong here. I think it might be a combination of being overwhelmed; the viewer, the immediate pressure to participate in the in-world economy, the clunkyness of enhancing the avatar, lag (underperforming hardware), and other facors. Many also come because they expect an adult experience, but the investment to upgrade your avatar for that is substantial. So they leave frustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Gavin Hird wrote: Ranking top on google means squat when 98% of your new signups leave within the first hour never to return. Over 5.2 million of them do every year. That's true...and i was being kind to Second life! .....in the last 18 months, it's actually been a slow but gradual decline in the "average number of avatars logging in during any given day." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I just typed in "hairy chest" - there are no freebies on that page. I have yet to see someone drop a page here that includes all freebies. I'm not sure what you mean new residents pushed toward marketplace. I don't recall seeing that at all when I was a cloud at the starting point. I remember seeing a huge whopping map to explore. If there was some kind of push toward marketplace at that starting point - I missed it - but depends on what you join for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Tari Landar wrote: But cutting out the little guy because he sells something for $0L that others are trying to sell for say $50L, isn't the solution to the concurrency problem. In fact, it won't help it at all. It'll push the little guy away....one less person in sl. Multiply that by however many little guys there are, and you've got an even bigger problem. Made wrote: That is exactly my problem, it will push people away. I think the reverse is true - that many give up because their efforts are devalued (they can't sell anything because so much is free). Many who enter SL still want to earn some money..it's a big draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I don't think most people appreciate what they get for free...so it follows they would devalue SL if it's all free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I just typed in: red dress white socks black boots whiskey cat dog grass Healthy mix of prices on each first page. I cannot find an example of what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Yo Rene - someone just put up a Racing Course on that lot I turned in. Cool! This is going to be great. Maybe Michael Schumacher might drop by your Store ....and buy your "Red roses in a Vase" before TP'ing home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Luna Bliss wrote: I think the reverse is true - that many give up because their efforts are devalued (they can't sell anything because so much is free). Many who enter SL still want to earn some money..it's a big draw. Yep, Luna.. I party agree. Also many give up because their efforts are devalued. You think that is caused by freebies, and I think that is caused by competition. And we both cannot know for sure, because we have no hard figures at all. The only figures I have seen that relate to this is that the number of merchants has grown substantial at least till 2010, while the total concurrency has stayed equal. So they are more people now after making some money versus people willing to spend money... then in for example 2007. So on the total population the number of buyers have decreased while the number sellers has increased. I haven't seen anything that indicates that people who do spend money in SL are spending less money now then in 2007 because there are more freebies available. I never saw any figures on how much avatars spend on virtual goods at all... and I have no idea if this amount is increasing or decreasing per person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Made wrote: "Yep, Luna.. I party agree. Also many give up because their efforts are devalued. You think that is caused by freebies, and I think that is caused by competition. And we both cannot know for sure, because we have no hard figures at all" No I believe competition is also a factor, but I think the damage of freebies is felt much more by beginning merchants - the 'little guy' you and Tari were mentioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Tari Landar wrote: The concurrency rate is, well, sucky, at least at times, but freebies are most definitely not the top or even a big, culprit there. There's just far too many other obstacles in the way. Take the recent change of no longer having a basic account, and an advanced one...that whole mistake played a huge role in why some chose not to come back. We even saw lots of threads on the forums from confused newbies, because of that issue. Glad they did away with that. But LL has made an awful lot of stupid decisions that have had a much larger impact on the concurrency rates being what they are, than any of us merchants could ever make. That part i'm totally in agreement with (bolded text)....and it really kicked in few months after M.Linden became CEO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 It's just not true that everyone who uses freebies would not be your customer anyway. Try listing some items on the MP for free vs the exact same items at regular price and see which sells more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Rene Erlanger wrote: Tari Landar wrote: The concurrency rate is, well, sucky, at least at times, but freebies are most definitely not the top or even a big, culprit there. There's just far too many other obstacles in the way. Take the recent change of no longer having a basic account, and an advanced one...that whole mistake played a huge role in why some chose not to come back. We even saw lots of threads on the forums from confused newbies, because of that issue. Glad they did away with that. But LL has made an awful lot of stupid decisions that have had a much larger impact on the concurrency rates being what they are, than any of us merchants could ever make. That part i'm totally in agreement with (bolded text)....and it really kicked in few months after M.Linden became CEO. Might as well get in a snipe to make a point about quality of product, but it doesn't help concurrency ... During the M era, noticed you couldn't sign up, it was broken. Came back 3 days later to create that business alt I'd been thinking of, still not working. Capcha wouldn't take even a correct value. Couldn't choose a last name. One email to Amanada and Blue Linden and two days later, signups were working again. 5 days of no signups at all. Mesh is an improvement, but a partially working virtual world in what "might" be considered an aging beast isn't helping matters. Devaluing products by people isn't so much the issue to me, more that LL intentionally devalues labor and time to produce those goods, and then says "merchant" in the same breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 For want of a better description we have various kinds of business models clashing in the same venue, although some I would not describe as "business" in the strictest sense. We have those that strive to create maximum profit using every business & marketing means possible, ....we have those that strive for a "break-even" model who might price low and rely on volume sales, ....we have those that are hobbyists that just enjoy creating and sales are just secondary (most likely price low and include a fair amount of freebies)....and then we have Open Sourceniks who make all their creations freely available and often full perms. They strive to see SL become an enviroment where all goods are free. On a platform such as Second Life with declining concurrency...something has to give. It's unsustainable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 To emphasise this discussion....and a sign of the times! From another thread...the closing down of Cartoonimals, which was a well known commercial sim and had some wonderful and unique products. I don't know the reasons why they closed...but I could make a good stab at it! So yet another awesome Sim closes down, whilst it's products remain on Marketplace. http://treet.tv/shows/shopping/episodes/shop-cartoonimals I notice some Merchants trot out that worn out meme...to create better quality products or try and be more innovative yadda yadda yadda.......I don't know how much more innovative one can be in the case of Cartoonimals! Sometimes you can't just buck the market! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 >I would prefer much higher concurrency.......there's far too much land on SL Grid and i've said that for several years now. Just think of 31k sims on the grid versus peak logins of 60-70k.....that's 2 avatars per sim when SL is at it's busiest.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you missed the point of the dilemma. It wasn't more land or higher concurrency. It was higher land value or higher concurrency. I meant it as an hypothetical example of a problem that would be insoluble to someome who considers both higher land value and higher concurrency to warrant any other possible kind of sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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