Marketplace shouldn´t allow freebies or dollarbies anymore

[Tari Landar]

I definitely wouldn't mind having to register, and eliminate the anonymity, for quite a few reasons actually. Even a yearly registration fee, isn't so bad.

I'm not keen on the minimum price point thing. BUT, if that's what they decided to do, I'd go with it, because I don't intend to stop selling on MP in the near future. I wouldn't enjoy it, and I would have some reservations about it, but, if it's what they set forth then I'd have no choice. I'm just not so sure that setting a minimum price point on MP would be nearly as effective as some think. Only because I know there are way more freebies in-world than there ever will be on MP. So the "problem" as it were, of merchants sellling at a lower price point and that harming other merchants(assuming this problem actually existed) would *still exist in-world, and on a much larger scale. If the complaint is that merchants who price, versus merchants who don't, simply can't compete based on that alone, the complain should exist also in-world. But it doesn't, or at least doesn't seem to from this discussion. That's why I don't believe the actual problem is as big as some think.

Yeah it's annoying when your business is the one hurting, for whatever reason, but I don't think looking to others is your first step(or should be) and it definitely isn't the solution. When my stuff doesn't sell, it's not because Joe Blow sells my $100L item for $1L. Nope, it's because I'm doing something wrong, or people aren't seeing my stuff, or I could be doing something better/different. At least this is how I improve my own self, my own stuff, my own store. If my stuff isn't moving, it's me that needs to change, not others. If others are pulling it off, and selling that same $100L item I was trying to sell, but couldn't, that same item joe is selling for $1l...and those folks aren't having the issues I am having... then it's me. If that makes any sense.(it makes sense in my head, not sure how it sounds in type, lol)

For example, let's say I build a house, it's a good house, a nice house, well textured, well set up, not overly high prim, etc.. a decent house. Not necessarily the best, but very nice. Let's say I price my house at $250L(for example). This is my first house I'm putting out there, I don't want to seem to eager.(this is one of my, many, approaches with new things). I can see from checking out the market(inworld and MP, because I do this a lot) that others are selling similar houses for much, much more than me. But, after looking I can see, houses are what they do, they likely have more skill, maybe even more supplies....whatever have you. Let's pretend my house sells wonderfully for a few months, then all of a sudden, my house isn't selling so great. What happned? Well let's look at the market. I can see that there are others selling similar houses now, that weren't when I put mine there, at both lower and higher price points than mine. Maybe they offer something I don't. Maybe their skills alone are better. Maybe their marketing is better, who knows. Let's now pretend I want to sell another house, one somewhat similar,b ut maybe different options, or more options. Maybe I want to price this house at $100L this time. Why? One reason could be that because I had a base to work from, it didn't take me as long. Maybe because I realize my price point might have been a bit too high, maybe I'm not ready to sell in that market just yet. Who  knows why, could be anything, or any combination. I don't believe me selling that new house at $100L is somehow evidence that I don't value my work, actually far from it (I'd likely not sell it at all if I didn't value it, at least somewhat). Maybe I think people who are willing to pay more, ought to get more, and since I don't give that, I don't want to chharge more.

I'm using houses as a category here because it's often a very controversial market, imo. Some think some builders way overcharge, and some of those who do charge a lot more, think others way undervalue the hard work that goes into building houses. But what many don't realize, is that not everyone puts the same work, same effort and also the same financial cost into their builds. Something that takes me weeks may take someone else five minutes. Something that takes them months may take me a day. Who has put in more time there? Me, or them? Certainly not me, so why should I charge for my "time" when it was neglible at best?

That's how I price some of my stuff, at least the stuff I add in a charge for "time and effort" as it were. If it didn't take me all that long, I'm certainly not going to tack on a cost for that time, lol. I do respect that others will, of course, it's their choice. I'd just like a little respect in return that I don't want to, or need to, make those same choices.

That was a very long winded rant, sorry, but, I just don't get this whole "everyone needs to do what I do, because it works for me" mentality I am seeing. It's just not that simple. Too many pieces of the puzzle, too many potentially differet outcomes, too many, well, everything. No two creators, and no two products are really ever alike 100%. That's one of the beauties of WHY I started creating, and eventually selling those creations. I like diversity, even amongst similar products. That includes the price points. I like that some can charge $5k for a pair of shoes(regardless of what they put into them), and they'll have people buying them(lining up to even), while still others can charge $50L for similar and have the same success. I Like that, whether I am the $5kL or $50L seller, I.like.diversity. It exists in-world and ought to be able to exist on the MP too. If for no other reason, it gives merchants the chance to see what they could do different, to change their own path. I don't see that as a bad thing.

[Rene Erlanger]

It's not so much that one merchant wants to preserve their right of loading up freebies or the entire MP Merchant community want to do likewise....it's the constant build up of 3-4 years of loading millions of Freebie items In-world. It must be bigger than EU food mountain that use to control farmer prices.!

I don't care what anyone says, but sooner or later it's going to impact the SL markets, obviously in some sectors much quicker than others...whilst in some sectors not at all  e.g No freebies in the Breedables market, for creators to worry about.

Just imagine being a Female Fashion designer though....apart from the incredible amount of competition, they have deal with millions of freebies In-world as well as MP...some of which is damn good quality. A woman can get by just wearing Freebie items and never having to spend a nickle!.

Turning the clock back, If i were a new Creator/ Merchant and knowing what i know now....and how the SL Markets have developed (saturation or not) ,  i'd probably opt to create no-mod scripted gadgets or products....the more elaborate the better (harder to copy)

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Rene Erlanger wrote:

 

 A woman can get by just wearing Freebie items and never having to spend a nickle!.

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It has always been so, and it will always be so. And for the majority that is exact fine, because they do not choose to spend a nickle. And no matter what you try, you will never convince them to become your paying customer. 

But why are you specially pointing to woman? None of my female friends still walk around in their newbie outfit or in 2007 found freebie outfit, but some of my male friends do. Seems for men even easier not to spend a nickle on clothing.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

You do that, and you take JOY away from a LOT of people.

Those people are my customers and friends, and me.

They are also yours.

You just missed analyzing that particular aspect of your business.  And if you miss that part, then yes, you will have some problems competing.

---

That's total crapola of an argument.

IMVU's Catalog shopping site (which Marketplace was modelled on) has 6 million products listed none of which are Freebies. IMVU Avatars continually willing to purchase products from that site without any demand for products to be free. It is also the only place where you can purchase IMVU products. I would also add that IMVU membership are younger than Second Life and likely to have less RL disposable income than the adults of Second Life.

SLEX back in the day wasn't swarming with Freebies like it is with MP....there wasn't an outcry from Consumers that products should be free, the same with SL Boutique shopping site. Admittedly we still had camping back in those days, so many non-particpants of the SL economy were still able to buy SL products......but there wasn't this expectation or justication to have Freebies like there is today.

It's almost expected by the new breed of Consumers and Merchants alike. Anyone would think the World is collapsing, it's just that conditions are tougher....and more people are unemployed than say 3-4 years ago.....but that still leaves the remaining 80-90% of the adult population still in employment in most Western countries. This isn't the Great Depression....where the local currency was losing value daily due to inflation.

If you want everything free in Second Life and no currency or abilities for cashing out....then there are some Open SIm grids that fit that bill.There you can create till your heart's content!

LL should opt for one business model or another....becuase what we have now is not going to work in the long run, it will only get worst (or better for some!) to the point that nearly all products will end being sold for single digit amounts or become Free.....especially without any growth to Second Life concurrency.

[Tari Landar]

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Rene Erlanger wrote:

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

You do that, and you take JOY away from a LOT of people.

Those people are my customers and friends, and me.

They are also yours.

You just missed analyzing that particular aspect of your business.  And if you miss that part, then yes, you will have some problems competing.

---

That's total crapola of an argument.

IMVU's Catalog shopping site (which Marketplace was modelled on) has 6 million products listed none of which are Freebies. IMVU Avatars continually willing to purchase products from that site without any demand for products to be free. It is also the only place where you can purchase IMVU products. I would also add that IMVU membership are younger than Second Life and likely to have less RL disposable income than the adults of Second Life.

SLEX back in the day wasn't swarming with Freebies like it is with MP....there wasn't an outcry from Consumers that products should be free, the same with SL Boutique shopping site. Admittedly we still had camping back in those days, so many non-particpants of the SL economy were still able to buy SL products......but there wasn't this expectation or justication to have Freebies like there is today.

It's almost expected by the new breed of Consumers and Merchants alike. Anyone would think the World is collapsing, it's just that conditions are tougher....and more people are unemployed than say 3-4 years ago.....but that still leaves the remaining 80-90% of the adult population still in employment in most Western countries. This isn't the Great Depression....where the local currency was losing value daily due to inflation.

If you want everything free in Second Life and no currency or abilities for cashing out....then there are some Open SIm grids that fit that bill.There you can create till your heart's content!

LL should opt for one business model or another....becuase what we have now is not going to work in the long run, it will only get worst (or better for some!) to the point that nearly all products will end being sold for single digit amounts or become Free.....especially without any growth to Second Life concurrency.

---

I don't think you were actually involved with SLEX the way you are claiming now. It was chock full of freebies, the big difference was there were categories for them. Xstreet was full of them. In-world, was/is full of them. For every merchant that goes out, another takes his or her place... regardless of what price points they choose to sell at, including freebies. There are far more inworld freebies than there ever were too, and that number grows all the time. But I don't see you, or anyone, suggesting freebies in-world should be limited, or even eliminated. What's so different about MP? Is it because it's one concentrated area? Or because it's one area that some merchants flourish in, while their in-world presence(f they have one) doesn't do so hot? What's really behind the whole "get rid of freebies on the MP" thought process? I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly asking. What really is it about MP that makes it a place where merchants should get to decide for others how to do business, but yet those same merchants don't feel the same about in-world commerce. In-world is a much larger audience, and while MP gets shoved into people's faces it has it's own flaws. Many people could be far more successful in-world than they are on MP(or potentially are on MP), because the audience IS bigger.

We can see that from all of the threads about how people don't like MP, or use it as a search tool, some even want it done away with entirely. In-world is a much, much larger and in some cases very untapped resource for merchants. I don't know why people aren't applying this logic(or lack of in some cases) to inworld commerce that they want thrust upon MP merchants.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

---

Rene Erlanger wrote:

 

 A woman can get by just wearing Freebie items and never having to spend a nickle!.

---

It has always been so, and it will always be so. And for the majority that is exact fine, because they do not choose to spend a nickle. And no matter what you try, you will never convince them to become your paying customer. 

But why are you specially pointing to woman?

None of my female friends still walk around in their newbie outfit or in 2007 found freebie outfit, but some of my male friends do. Seems for men even easier not to spend a nickle on clothing.

---

Because it's not so saturated in the Mens Fashion sectors....there's still a lot of holes in that market. Still opportunities for quality Male fashion designers to succeed...even now.

Have you seen some of the beautiful women clothing that are free or given freely to existing customers via their Group or through a Hunt or MM Boards or whatever?

[Mickey Vandeverre]

Good grief.  You didn't even grasp what I meant. 

You're just twisting stuff now or pulling stuff from the air.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Tari Landar wrote:

---

Rene Erlanger wrote:

---

Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

You do that, and you take JOY away from a LOT of people.

Those people are my customers and friends, and me.

They are also yours.

You just missed analyzing that particular aspect of your business.  And if you miss that part, then yes, you will have some problems competing.

---

That's total crapola of an argument.

IMVU's Catalog shopping site (which Marketplace was modelled on) has 6 million products listed none of which are Freebies. IMVU Avatars continually willing to purchase products from that site without any demand for products to be free. It is also the only place where you can purchase IMVU products. I would also add that IMVU membership are younger than Second Life and likely to have less RL disposable income than the adults of Second Life.

SLEX back in the day wasn't swarming with Freebies like it is with MP....there wasn't an outcry from Consumers that products should be free, the same with SL Boutique shopping site. Admittedly we still had camping back in those days, so many non-particpants of the SL economy were still able to buy SL products......but there wasn't this expectation or justication to have Freebies like there is today.

It's almost expected by the new breed of Consumers and Merchants alike. Anyone would think the World is collapsing, it's just that conditions are tougher....and more people are unemployed than say 3-4 years ago.....but that still leaves the remaining 80-90% of the adult population still in employment in most Western countries. This isn't the Great Depression....where the local currency was losing value daily due to inflation.

If you want everything free in Second Life and no currency or abilities for cashing out....then there are some Open SIm grids that fit that bill.There you can create till your heart's content!

LL should opt for one business model or another....becuase what we have now is not going to work in the long run, it will only get worst (or better for some!) to the point that nearly all products will end being sold for single digit amounts or become Free.....especially without any growth to Second Life concurrency.

---

I don't think you were actually involved with SLEX the way you are claiming now. It was chock full of freebies, the big difference was there were categories for them. Xstreet was full of them. In-world, was/is full of them. For every merchant that goes out, another takes his or her place... regardless of what price points they choose to sell at, including freebies. There are far more inworld freebies than there ever were too, and that number grows all the time. But I don't see you, or anyone, suggesting freebies in-world should be limited, or even eliminated. What's so different about MP? Is it because it's one concentrated area? Or because it's one area that some merchants flourish in, while their in-world presence(f they have one) doesn't do so hot? What's really behind the whole "get rid of freebies on the MP" thought process? I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly asking. What really is it about MP that makes it a place where merchants should get to decide for others how to do business, but yet those same merchants don't feel the same about in-world commerce. In-world is a much larger audience, and while MP gets shoved into people's faces it has it's own flaws. Many people could be far more successful in-world than they are on MP(or potentially are on MP), because the audience IS bigger.

We can see that from all of the threads about how people don't like MP, or use it as a search tool, some even want it done away with entirely. In-world is a much, much larger and in some cases very untapped resource for merchants. I don't know why people aren't applying this logic(or lack of in some cases) to inworld commerce that they want thrust upon MP merchants.

---

now who is presuming?

I was a merchant listed on SLEX...and a regular in SLEX forums. I didn't see any of these discussions regarding Freebies on their forums!

The only outcry was when Ahnse Chung threatened to employ a 100 or so content creators for a RW company.....and mass produce SL items and sell them all for 10 Lindens....regardless of whether it was a complete house or a Palm Tree. That is what she threatened to do......naturally there was a backlash from SL content community. Did you not view the products created by "10 Linden"

Freebies weren't an issue.....copybotted items being sold were more of an issue.

----------------------------

You are also mixing me up with other posters on here....I'm not demanding anything about Freebies on Marketplace nor In-World, i'm just making general observations about the SL Economy as a whole and where this is all heading. How can you undo 4 years of freebies littering? It's Impossible!

If push came to shove ....and i was overly concerned about Marketplace and it's Freebie issues, then i would be in agreement with Gavin & Luna's suggestions and thought processes. I've never liked Freebies full stop...from when they first surfaced in abundance as BIAB resellers (Business-in-a-Box) during 2007...much of which were loaded with stolen copybotted content. I banned them from my Malls....only allowing original creators to rent vendor spaces.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Rene Erlanger wrote:

 

Have you seen some of the beautiful women clothing that are free or given freely to existing customers via their Group or through a Hunt or MM Boards or whatever?

---

No but I can imagen. Because when you don't give away freebies out of generosity or as a fan of the open source community but as a marketing tool,then you are not going to give away something that does not reflect your skills. Now for example after you discover a certain dress is populair in three colours, but you did never ever sell one in oceangreen. Then why not let this oceangreen one work for you as a marketingtool to show your skills.

But those marketing tool like hunts and MM boards and such are NOT the problem I understand in this tread.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Luna Bliss wrote:

The only solution would be for LL to limit the amount of freebies each merchant could offer on the MP.

It's a good thing to impose limits/laws on people sometimes if it preserves the whole - this freebie problem seems to be one of those cases.

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Agreed, but I believe indirect regulation rather than direct regulation would work better as certain parts of the market is all about open source items (like scripts.)

As I have stated before I believe this can be accomplished with the following mechanisms:

 

• To be able to list your products on the marketplace you must be a registered developer. Registration has a cost, and it must be renewed annually. 
• A minimum price is established for priced items that can't be undercut by anyone. This is a mechanism that has worked pretty good both on iTunes and Apple App store, and has also been adopted by Microsoft for their mobile marketplace. 
• Alternatively items can be listed for free. 
• If you list items for free, they will not be profiled or even returned in any regular product search. You have to explicitly search the free items category.
• Search results in the free items category are not given any boosts or relevance, but are returned in random list order as default. The shopper can then sort the list according to newest / oldest. This is to prevent both gaming of the list, but also remove some of the merchant clustering in the search results that we now see.
• Demo items are not returned in regular product search, but can only be viewed via a regular item that has a demo item linked to it. If you search for the word demo, the search engine will only list regular products that has demo items linked to them. Access to the demo is as per above.

For in-world search I don't see any particular need to impose any of the above, because you would actually have to move to the location to see the item in question. This improves in-world mobility and presence, which is good. 

 

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Overall a pretty solid plan. Always thought minimum pricing was one good way to go, as well. Coupled with LL bringing back some solid reasons for paying people, such as camping would offset that. We do fine seeding our own, and we've proven that by the sheer amount of merchants that got their start by camping, aside from buying their own personal goods.

Flawed as they were, some merchants are still here because they got a start with investment money from in-world stock markets. It bought them full sims, and gave anyone with a decent business plan a shot at an SL venture.

I still say expiring goods is the single best one to get rid of old goods, put a ceiling on not only freebies but the total amount of goods. That wouldn't sit well with some folks, but it's a solution nonetheless.

 

 

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

I still say expiring goods is the single best one to get rid of old goods, put a ceiling on not only freebies but the total amount of goods. That wouldn't sit well with some folks, but it's a solution nonetheless. 

---

That is also a direction you can think of, indeed. Not bringing the bottum up, but lowering the ceiling. You might as well say: don't allow merchants to have more then 100 items on the marketplace. When you grow out of your marketplace store, the only solution to offer more items for sale is then to take an aditional in world store.

That will both give more visibility for items on the marketplace, and stimulatie in world commerce again.

The only weak point is... how many alts does it take to get 500 items in 5 marketplace shops?

[Josh Susanto]

>I stated earlier, that i know of lots of Fashion designers that have given up their sims or downsize or left SL altogether..---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------That's a market that was going to saturate at some point anyway. All that not having the SLM acheived was to artificially prevent it from saturating sooner than maybe it should have.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

Good grief.  You didn't even grasp what I meant. 

You're just twisting stuff now or pulling stuff from the air.

---

Nope that would be your speciality.........you and the Birds! :matte-motes-sunglasses-1:

[Josh Susanto]

>I am actually more interested in understanding why people think they are entitled to flood the market with any amount of free stuff, and in the process completely undermine the business model SecondLife is built on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I can answer that with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader. Freebies don't undemine Second Life's business model. They only undermine the business models of some merchants who think SL is supposed to serve them, but not serve merchants whose business models include freebies.

[Josh Susanto]

>Rene and the old codgers at the downtown merchants meeting absolutely refuse to grasp that they are losing customers daily to the mall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's not my preferred analogy. My preferred analogy is that Amazon continues to expand as Borders continues to shut down locations. Real locations are often more and more unable to compete with virtual markets in RL, so SL would only be a less real simulation if its virtual real markets didn't have some kind of problem competing with its virtual virtual market or markets. That is: SLM simulates the experience of using a virtual market in RL.

[Josh Susanto]

>But the authenticity of the shop, gives people a shopping experience that they really enjoy. At least that is what some leading people in marketing predict, the future is all about the EXPERIENCE. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed. Why are there still movie theaters? Because the companies that run them understand why people still go to them, and offer those people that for which they go there. The whole environment in theaters is engineered to make almost any film watchable. Theater companies that ignored that and focused more just on what films they were getting have now either changed their thinking on that, or they have gone under. I find in-world shopping to be tedious less because of the products themselves, than because of other aspects of the experience. Once I've got what I came for, there's rarely anything about most of the ambiance of in-world shops that should make me want to stick around long enough to see something else I might want.

[Josh Susanto]

>I think campingbots were the main reason.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was somewhat aware of that phenomenon, but I didn't realize it was much of an annoyance to anyone but me. The people paying the bots were just trying to put a dot on the map anyway, weren't they? I should think that while such a problem may not have been completely resolved by other means, there should probably have been some series of measures that might have been applied to mitigate it while not punishing the other 99% of camping users who were using the system legitimately. The situation now doesn't seem that much better. The local business owners just send their own bots to camp without offering n00bs anything to do it for them instead.

[Josh Susanto]

>But I actually could prove it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------But don't you get it? It's the freebies on SLM that are making me bald and fat in RL. SOMEBODY BETTER DO SOMETHING!!!

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

Why are there still movie theaters? Because the companies that run them understand why people still go to them, and offer those people that for which they go there. The whole environment in theaters is engineered to make almost any film watchable.

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But also because its an art form that has depended on development in technology since its existance. The industry is kind of used to adept new invented wheels that support the experience of the viewer, from silent movie to spoken movie, from black and white to color, to all around surrounding. Nowadays 3D is the new lure, and who knows in maybe ten years or so we can go to the movie that smells. You experience will get another boost to stay ahead of other media the also adept comparable technologies, you will actually smell the roses, the sea, the burning house...

[Toysoldier Thor]

OMG People.... this topic is on PAGE 50!!  I really honestly think this thread has longg since wore otu its value.  In the meantime my email box has been flooded for days on this one thread.  I have actually had to put a specific filter in my email system just to block this one thread (since I cannot unsubscribe to the Merchant thead or miss postings from other threads).

Are you all not sick of this thread?

[Dartagan Shepherd]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

>But I actually could prove it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------But don't you get it? It's the freebies on SLM that are making me bald and fat in RL. SOMEBODY BETTER DO SOMETHING!!!

---

Rather an overall discussion that sometimes gets pinned on freebies on the marketplace, but it applies to glut of products in general, then freebies, then low cost and the unsustainability.

Has nothing to do with fear of going bald. In fact, some of the ones saying some action or other needs to be taken aren't firm on what exactly action that is, there are multiple solutions, or that they're not doing well, when in fact they tend to be merchants that are doing ok and not individually threatened one tiny bit by freebies directly.

It's also not the protectionism that you've eluded to before. It's not going to immediatly make the "elite" more "elite".

It's just about the general model, that while it worked during a boom it's severely flawed when there isn't a big influx of new users (and therefore the current system is designed to be pyramid-ish).

Re-designing it so that it works for the majority in non growith periods is a more stable business model for everyone.

Or you can take the naive approach and say it's just for the elite, the threatenened or those who are struggling, in spite of the fact that this isn't true.

Need 65,536 square meters for a signature for disclaimers that it's a business to business discussion and not an agenda, or dictating to people, or a cure for baldness.

[Josh Susanto]

>Sure there may be some niche markets like Josh's hole business, but for the most part new merchants have no market anymore. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------There's still plenty of stuff that no one is selling. And if you start listing some of it, people won't even have to look for it in order to find it. Holes were substantially lacking, so I made holes. Disembodied limbs were susbtantially lacking, so I made those. Now about half my SLM revenue is from those disembodied limbs. SL is a supposed to be virtual world, so it should arguably allow the presence (in some form) of practically anything that would exist in some more real kind of world. But there's still all kinds of stuff that exists in RL that for some reason doesn't exist in SL. When I made that non-cross 3d alpha plant you've probably seen spreading by now, I'm pretty sure that no one was doing it that way yet (are they now?). There's usually some kind of "niche" for anything that has been offered yet, or for which the variety of competition remains dismal. And that's a lot of stuff. The fetish people will ALWAYS pay more for something that more decisively pushes their fetish button. Anything that produces a stronger phobic response is also a good bet for sales. People who say there are no more open niches either lack imagination, or they just don't understand the process of doing any better than at least some of what already exists.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Tari Landar wrote:

I don't think you were actually involved with SLEX the way you are claiming now. It was chock full of freebies, the big difference was there were categories for them. Xstreet was full of them. In-world, was/is full of them. For every merchant that goes out, another takes his or her place... regardless of what price points they choose to sell at, including freebies. There are far more inworld freebies than there ever were too, and that number grows all the time.

But I don't see you, or anyone, suggesting freebies in-world should be limited, or even eliminated

. What's so different about MP? Is it because it's one concentrated area? Or because it's one area that some merchants flourish in, while their in-world presence(f they have one) doesn't do so hot? What's really behind the whole "get rid of freebies on the MP" thought process? I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly asking. What really is it about MP that makes it a place where merchants should get to decide for others how to do business, but yet those same merchants don't feel the same about in-world commerce. In-world is a much larger audience, and while MP gets shoved into people's faces it has it's own flaws. Many people could be far more successful in-world than they are on MP(or potentially are on MP), because the audience IS bigger.

We can see that from all of the threads about how people don't like MP, or use it as a search tool, some even want it done away with entirely. In-world is a much, much larger and in some cases very untapped resource for merchants. I don't know why people aren't applying this logic(or lack of in some cases) to inworld commerce that they want thrust upon MP merchants.

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Well that's an obvious one.....you get can past the "Freebie" noise In-world.....because all the searches relate to destinations and not individual products.  I can probably list higher in any of the searches than Freebie locations if i optimise my keywords properly. I can also pay for Classifieds that can jump any Freebie Location in the listings by paying more for  it.

I can draw traffic through other means of marketing by... use of targeted Groups , Shop Sales  hosting a fashion show or a Competition....or purchase radio advertising, or a full page in a popular magazine. I have greater control in bringing people to my shops regardless of Freebie content around the Grid. I feel their are still chances of getting people inside the shops.

In Marketplace outside the paid-for enhancements, you're at the mercy of the Search engine that lists by products. The default view seems to be "Relevance" and that is where you invariably see an armada of Freebies or Dollarbies on Page 1 ....as they are being sold more.(guessing)  I'm not sure what alogorithms the MP Search engine are using....but quantity of sales or product views might be couple of them.

 

[Josh Susanto]

>Re-designing it so that it works for the majority in non growith periods is a more stable business model for everyone.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Agreed. There are things which could be done which I think might be an over-all improvement. Even an opt-in to include freebies listings which are filtered out as a default is something I don't see any immediate problem with. Providing users with greater or easier control over whether or not they're seeing something, be that freebies or something else, is a better service for them. I support better over-all service before I support higher revenues for myself. If SL can really do better for users, I should probably adapt to the changes it makes rather than just complain about how badly they fit with my existing business model.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

I was somewhat aware of that phenomenon, but I didn't realize it was much of an annoyance to anyone but me. The people paying the bots were just trying to put a dot on the map anyway, weren't they?

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I don't know in what time you camped, but what I experienced was that while in the beginning that I was looking for camping spots, I met a lot of people, people talked in open group chat or you did get IM's from people. And it was not hard to find a camping spot that paid well. Then it happened that camping spots closed, or became so busy that you had to wait to be able to camp there. So on the hunt for new spots. And then you came accross camping spots where was no life at all. Just twenty zombies on a dance stand. Nobody who spoke or stopped camping there. I first thought it was a sort or club where members had their own campingspot our so, too keep others out, but later I heared from other campers those are bots, and that they are around more and more, and taking the fun out of camping for both owners and campers.

Good camping places started to become more rare. Owners started to use more and more anti bot devices. To stop bots sucking up all camping money they used programs in which you had to respons to a message every two minutes or so, to prove that you were a living person and not a bot. I was often camping while I was working in photoshop... so for me those were just not attractive. I came a across a spot that had camping benches, and that became my spot to sit for a while when I was doing other things. Met a few nice people there, had a talk now and then, bought something in one of the shops in the neighbourhoud of the campingbenches. And then one day when I came all campingbenches were taken. That did not happen very often there, but ok, it can happen. So I decided to wait for a little while. Anybody leaving soon, I asked, no answer. I stood in front of a bench, where three people were sitting. I dont remember exactly, but i think you could sit there for 10 or 15 minutes or so. As soon as one of the people stood up I clicked the bench, but she was faster and set herself again without a word. Next avatar that stood up, exact the same. I decided to be the first at the third spot. I was with my mouse right on the ball and only had to click. I saw the avatar getting stand, I clicked the ball and I was too late. I was just about to give up when a girl arrive that used to camp on the same bench at me, and I told her what just happened. While we were talking the time went fast, and the next chance for us to sit on 'our bench' arrived. She nor I was able to take the campingspot for one of those three avatars as soon as it became available again. That was far from normal. Normally the avatars waiting for a spot where able to click first, just because they were in a better position to click because they were not warped away from the device. So we concluded that these people must use some sort of hud or script or 'how they call all those things in SL'? Later I understood that was my first conscious experience with campingbots. It are avatars that run by programs that are taking over available campingspot. Once bots conquer a camping place, the mutual benefit for both camper and device owner are gone. And that happened more and more....  Long after I stopped camping I heared complaints about zombies hanging around on campingspots, and bots taking over the real traffic.

The green dots on the map was a different, those were traffic bots. Those were for other purposes, gaming search and  misleading possible buyers of land or renters.