Marketplace shouldn´t allow freebies or dollarbies anymore

[Dartagan Shepherd]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

>Re-designing it so that it works for the majority in non growith periods is a more stable business model for everyone.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Agreed. There are things which could be done which I think might be an over-all improvement. Even an opt-in to include freebies listings which are filtered out as a default is something I don't see any immediate problem with. Providing users with greater or easier control over whether or not they're seeing something, be that freebies or something else, is a better service for them. I support better over-all service before I support higher revenues for myself. If SL can really do better for users, I should probably adapt to the changes it makes rather than just complain about how badly they fit with my existing business model.

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You're onto something there. I think some of the complaints about marketplace vs. in-world shopping comes down to the fact that you "used" to be able to have more business models. The variety of models in SL was (and still is to some extent) amazing in SL.

Between LL intent on capturing the majority of sales via the Marketplace and stuffing every type of model and seller into one big dumping ground, they've eliminated many models.

Optimially you should be able to keep your model as well as 5,000 other strategies people can use to succeed. LL dabbling in their own economy .... every .... single .... time has the end result of limiting opportunities and choices further.

If I can't be seen and I can't sell, what am I going to do personally? First thing is to lower prices. Second thing is to give out lots of stuff for free. The third thing I'm going to try to do is to spam wherever I can, in keywords, search, etc.

That's why I can't lay the blame at anyones feet but LL for narrowing the choices and forcing people to make those decisions.

But it shouldn't come down to a choice that you would have to completely change your model either, assuming I kind of get what that is.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

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Josh Susanto wrote:

I was somewhat aware of that phenomenon, but I didn't realize it was much of an annoyance to anyone but me. The people paying the bots were just trying to put a dot on the map anyway, weren't they?

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I don't know in what time you camped, but what I experienced was that while in the beginning that I was looking for camping spots, I met a lot of people, people talked in open group chat or you did get IM's from people. And it was not hard to find a camping spot that paid well. Then it happened that camping spots closed, or became so busy that you had to wait to be able to camp there. So on the hunt for new spots. And then you came accross camping spots where was no life at all. Just twenty zombies on a dance stand. Nobody who spoke or stopped camping there. I first thought it was a sort or club where members had their own campingspot our so, too keep others out, but later I heared from other campers those are bots, and that they are around more and more, and taking the fun out of camping for both owners and campers.

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There was a way around that when i used my camping devices. At some point, i had noticed Avatars arriving from camping farms with similar surnames, they might have even been Bots.  So what I did was create a role for my "real Avatar campers" within the Group that the Land was deeded to.....and only used Camping devices that could be "Group set"". After that it was impossible for outsiders to use...other than my official group of campers.  Problem solved

I had a group of about 20 sharing 8 spots in 4/5 different locations...they worked out a rota system between themselves, which was easy because they came from different parts of the world. Lots of them became close friends with one another...out of those 20 i actually had 2 small business owners -lol, which was kind of strange!

Nowadays, there are about 10 left in that same group and still in SL.....i no longer use any camping devices since the LL ban, but i have a smart workaround solution! At the end of the day LL can't stop me from giving my own money away!

Before, I used some pretty cool animated Camping devices that blended into the environment. I had a Chinese Noodle van with the Chef serving Noodles, a couple of Guitarists, another sculpturing using chisel & hammer, another gardening or mowing the lawn....they were pretty fun looking. I miss those days....at times we'd just all chat together  and fool around, some of them ended up being SL friends. Some have been with me for 3-4 years now.

I've given 1 of my Managers a free Shop, so that she can sell her own creations...so i don't actually pay her anymore. Another Assistant i've allowed her to sell her creations in the Square where she works. So they have benefited aside from camping money. It became a kind of mini community tbh

[Tari Landar]

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Rene Erlanger wrote:

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Tari Landar wrote:

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Rene Erlanger wrote:

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

You do that, and you take JOY away from a LOT of people.

Those people are my customers and friends, and me.

They are also yours.

You just missed analyzing that particular aspect of your business.  And if you miss that part, then yes, you will have some problems competing.

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That's total crapola of an argument.

IMVU's Catalog shopping site (which Marketplace was modelled on) has 6 million products listed none of which are Freebies. IMVU Avatars continually willing to purchase products from that site without any demand for products to be free. It is also the only place where you can purchase IMVU products. I would also add that IMVU membership are younger than Second Life and likely to have less RL disposable income than the adults of Second Life.

SLEX back in the day wasn't swarming with Freebies like it is with MP....there wasn't an outcry from Consumers that products should be free, the same with SL Boutique shopping site. Admittedly we still had camping back in those days, so many non-particpants of the SL economy were still able to buy SL products......but there wasn't this expectation or justication to have Freebies like there is today.

It's almost expected by the new breed of Consumers and Merchants alike. Anyone would think the World is collapsing, it's just that conditions are tougher....and more people are unemployed than say 3-4 years ago.....but that still leaves the remaining 80-90% of the adult population still in employment in most Western countries. This isn't the Great Depression....where the local currency was losing value daily due to inflation.

If you want everything free in Second Life and no currency or abilities for cashing out....then there are some Open SIm grids that fit that bill.There you can create till your heart's content!

LL should opt for one business model or another....becuase what we have now is not going to work in the long run, it will only get worst (or better for some!) to the point that nearly all products will end being sold for single digit amounts or become Free.....especially without any growth to Second Life concurrency.

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I don't think you were actually involved with SLEX the way you are claiming now. It was chock full of freebies, the big difference was there were categories for them. Xstreet was full of them. In-world, was/is full of them. For every merchant that goes out, another takes his or her place... regardless of what price points they choose to sell at, including freebies. There are far more inworld freebies than there ever were too, and that number grows all the time. But I don't see you, or anyone, suggesting freebies in-world should be limited, or even eliminated. What's so different about MP? Is it because it's one concentrated area? Or because it's one area that some merchants flourish in, while their in-world presence(f they have one) doesn't do so hot? What's really behind the whole "get rid of freebies on the MP" thought process? I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly asking. What really is it about MP that makes it a place where merchants should get to decide for others how to do business, but yet those same merchants don't feel the same about in-world commerce. In-world is a much larger audience, and while MP gets shoved into people's faces it has it's own flaws. Many people could be far more successful in-world than they are on MP(or potentially are on MP), because the audience IS bigger.

We can see that from all of the threads about how people don't like MP, or use it as a search tool, some even want it done away with entirely. In-world is a much, much larger and in some cases very untapped resource for merchants. I don't know why people aren't applying this logic(or lack of in some cases) to inworld commerce that they want thrust upon MP merchants.

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now who is presuming?

I was a merchant listed on SLEX...and a regular in SLEX forums. I didn't see any of these discussions regarding Freebies on their forums!

The only outcry was when Ahnse Chung threatened to employ a 100 or so content creators for a RW company.....and mass produce SL items and sell them all for 10 Lindens....regardless of whether it was a complete house or a Palm Tree. That is what she threatened to do......naturally there was a backlash from SL content community. Did you not view the products created by "10 Linden"

Freebies weren't an issue.....copybotted items being sold were more of an issue.

----------------------------

You are also mixing me up with other posters on here....I'm not demanding anything about Freebies on Marketplace nor In-World, i'm just making general observations about the SL Economy as a whole and where this is all heading. How can you undo 4 years of freebies littering? It's Impossible!

If push came to shove ....and i was overly concerned about Marketplace and it's Freebie issues, then i would be in agreement with Gavin & Luna's suggestions and thought processes. I've never liked Freebies full stop...from when they first surfaced in abundance as BIAB resellers (Business-in-a-Box) during 2007...much of which were loaded with stolen copybotted content. I banned them from my Malls....only allowing original creators to rent vendor spaces.

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I didn't really want to quote all of that, but thought it was important.

*I* never said there was an issue on slex, or any other site, or even inworld for that matter. That was my entire point. It wasn't, and isn't an actual issue. What you've said here, actually proves my point, quite well. The existance of freebies inworld has grown substantially, and yes even on MP there are more now, but you also have to take into consideration that there are more merchants as well-those numbers have grown as well, making the percentages themselves(percentage of merchants vs free/low cost items that is) remain near the same as well. So it stands to reason the sheer numbers would change, including the numbers of free and low-cost items. The amount of freebies, back in the days of slex, that existed on slex are, in my honest opinion, equal to what they are now-when we take into consideration the number of merchants as well. Less merchants, less items-including freebies. It wasn't an issue back with slex, it wasn't an issue with xstreet, and it's still not an issue with mp. When you consider just the size of slex,xstreet,MP, whatever... to the amount of freebies, they are still on par with what they once were. Now if we had the same number of merchants as we did back in those days, and that number never grew, but the free or low cost number did....then we'd likely understand where the "problem" is coming from. But that's not the case. That's not what happened, is happening, and will happen.

Slex was the first place I actually found free items, once I decided to stay here permanently that is, lol.(I've had multiple avs before the 6/08 rez date of this av, I just didn't enjoy sl regularly and was quite content being a noob, with noob everything, back then, lol). That's actually what a LOT of people used slex for, especially new people. The same way that folks use MP for it now. Sure there were inworld ones too(and a lot of the same ones, I even visted a sim that was "old" the first time I saw it with outdated things, that still sells those same things just this morning). Most people I know who made larger purchases, or even ones with a cost, didn't use slex to do so. The same way a lot of people don't use MP to make those same purchases these days. MP is actually a perfect place to showcase free and low cost items-for all the reasons already stated in this thread. People used it as a tool way back when, before it was MP, and they're still doing that today. I happen to believe it's a good thing, you don't, and I don't believe we'll ever see eye to eye on it. I just honestly do not see an epidemic or something proving that all the freebies on MP are hurting other merchants. Some might, but so do the ones in-world, in fact if we want to go by numbers, the ones in-world *should be more damaging(if you believe they are at all), because there are far more of them.

I wasn't confusing you with any other poster though. I'm looking at the thread title, all the previous replies, and trying to figure out how they go hand in hand. They just don't, imo.

[Rene Erlanger]

No freebies weren't that prominent on SLEX at all.....sure they existed, but it was such a small sub-group it wasnt' even worth worrying about....stop trying to re-write history!  It just wasn't a issue!

There are several reasons why they weren't prominent....firstly the in-world economy was buoyant, most Merchants were still making decent sales, was no need for price-dumping or handing out Freebies.....secondly as Madeliefste already pointed out....when camping was banned by LL , Merchants began to look for other ways of bringing in traffic to their Shops, so they began to offer Freebies as a means of marketing tool...at first in-world, then it shifted onto Xstreet (when owned by LL).....after that was via Hunts and then in-world Freebie groups & MM boards. Lastly SLEX visibility wasn't that great...as Madelieste again pointed out, you had to open an SLEX a/c and drop money into one of the in-world ATMs. SLEX was not promoted by Linden lab.

At its peak, SLEX had about 700k of Products....Marketplace has nearly 2 Million products....180k are items priced between 0-10 L...so about 9% of all products....no way SLEX was in that league for free or cheap items!

Camping ban was in May 2009

SLEX (later became XStreet) was sold to Linden Lab in Jan/ Feb 2009

 

NB SLEX renamed itself to XStreet not LL, i think it was something to do with LL not wanting other organisations using the name Second Life (or SL)

[Mickey Vandeverre]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

>Rene and the old codgers at the downtown merchants meeting absolutely refuse to grasp that they are losing customers daily to the mall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's not my preferred analogy. My preferred analogy is that Amazon continues to expand as Borders continues to shut down locations. Real locations are often more and more unable to compete with virtual markets in RL, so SL would only be a less real simulation if its virtual real markets didn't have some kind of problem competing with its virtual virtual market or markets. That is: SLM simulates the experience of using a virtual market in RL.

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Josh, was going to use an updated version like you just supplied....just did not think dude was in that century yet.

[Pac Lorefield]

Ok, I only had to read maybe 5 pages to see the same arguments being posted over and over by the same people.  Making linden here is like playing nickel poker at a casino.  You never know where the cards are going to lay.  But unlike a slot machine, we can actually increase the odds of success with marketing smarts, consistency, and innovation.  Freebies will not be the end of your business.  I am one of a hundred wedding businesses in SL.  I am constantly up and down with business and have to be smart enough to find other ways to survive and I been doing well.  Not once have I had to pull rl funds into my SL.  To me, that is the success of my business. 

People can create for free or for linden.  I have never just bought something because it is free.  I support a lot of fellow creators because I appreciate their customer service and product.  Once and a while, I do enjoy the thrill of finding a cool freebie.

I guess the point I'm getting to is that you can sit and stew or go and do.  Take some initiative and innovate or start discovering ways to make things better all around.

 

[Rene Erlanger]

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Tari Landar wrote:

Some might, but so do the ones in-world, in fact if we want to go by numbers, the ones in-world *should be more damaging(if you believe they are at all), because there are Y

I wasn't confusing you with any other poster though. I'm looking at the thread title, all the previous replies, and trying to figure out how they go hand in hand. They just don't, imo.

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You are confusing me with other posters.....as i didn't ask for Freebies to be removed from Marketplace....as i'm not that passionate about the product (MP) at the end of the day. The only thing that concerns me is the survival of the In-World economy.....if Marketplace dropped off the map tomorrow, I wouldn't be shedding any tears with or without it's Freebie listings.

Having said that Gavin's proposals seems feasible without killing off your beloved Freebies.

 

I've already explained the difference between Freebies on Marketplace and In-world....but you chose to ignore my previous reply out convenience...so that you carry on chiming the same nonsense about In-World Freebies like a broken record!

[Tari Landar]

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Rene Erlanger wrote:

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Tari Landar wrote:

Some might, but so do the ones in-world, in fact if we want to go by numbers, the ones in-world *should be more damaging(if you believe they are at all), because there are Y

I wasn't confusing you with any other poster though. I'm looking at the thread title, all the previous replies, and trying to figure out how they go hand in hand. They just don't, imo.

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You are confusing me with other posters.....as i didn't ask for Freebies to be removed from Marketplace....as i'm not that passionate about the product (MP) at the end of the day. The only thing that concerns me is the survival of the In-World economy.....if Marketplace dropped off the map tomorrow, I wouldn't be shedding any tears with or without it's Freebie listings.

Having said that Gavin's proposals seems feasible without killing off your beloved Freebies.

 

I've already explained the difference between Freebies on Marketplace and In-world....but you chose to ignore my previous reply out convenience...so that you carry on chiming the same nonsense about In-World Freebies like a broken record!

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I'm not ignoring anything, well I wasn't. But you seem to lack the ability to converse with people who do not agree with your viewpoint without being condescending and rude. It's not really much of a conversation in that case.

I find it refreshing that others, despite the fatc that we don't see eye to eye, can still converse like grown adults. That's the sort of conversation I'm more interested in(and why i even remained in the thread to begin with). I am, well was, truly trying to understand others' opinions(that's why I ask questions) but I can't do that if all you want to do is be rude. Others can manage, you don't seem to be able to. In my book, that negates most of what you have to say. It's also why I doubt your actual experience. You can claim anything you want until the cows come home. Until you can explain your viewpoint without being rude, it won't mean much of anything to people.

[Luna Bliss]

Tari...I think it's pretty clear what your position is on all this and why you take that position. Repeatedly you have mentioned how your skills are lacking, and at one point said you may embrace freebies because you want to 'stick it to the big guy". I have run into this before - people who champion freebies because they're unable to make money.

And you are poloarizing this discussion though you have denied it - can you admit that possibly even one sale might be lost because someone sees item A for free when the same item B costs 600 $L?  People that can't admit the other side has at least SOME merit are polarizing and will not cope with anyones opinion but their own. That's why your characterization of Rene is so comical - you are projecting...you are the one doing what you claim he is doing.

At one point in this long thread, one of your posts was deleted where you decided you would not buy items by merchants who believed freebies were not ok.  Do you see how fanatical this is? Please take a look at what is driving your posts here.

I'm sorry you are sick, and I hesitated confronting you because of this. But I am just as sick myself right now, perhaps sicker, and I need the money I earn here to help pay my bills. I feel this position you are taking is one of the factors contributing to the decline of SL - making it nearly impossible for anyone to earn money here. As I've said before, those entering SL have no market when most everything is free - they get frustrated and leave. I know many of them, and I also know more established creators who already left because they can't sell anything here anymore. Yes I agree there are many causes - an overabundance of freebies is one of them.

[Tari Landar]

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Luna Bliss wrote:

Tari...I think it's pretty clear what your position is on all this and why you take that position. Repeatedly you have mentioned how your skills are lacking, and at one point said you may embrace freebies because you want to 'stick it to the big guy". I have run into this before - people who champion freebies because they're unable to make money.

And you are poloarizing this discussion though you have denied it - can you admit that possibly even one sale might be lost because someone sees item A for free when the same item B costs 600 $L?  People that can't admit the other side has at least SOME merit are polarizing and will not cope with anyones opinion but their own. That's why your characterization of Rene is so comical - you are projecting...you are the one doing what you claim he is doing.

At one point in this long thread, one of your posts was deleted where you decided you would not buy items by merchants who believed freebies were not ok.  Do you see how fanatical this is? Please take a look at what is driving your posts here.

I'm sorry you are sick, and I hesitated confronting you because of this. But I am just as sick myself right now, perhaps sicker, and I need the money I earn here to help pay my bills. I feel this position you are taking is one of the factors contributing to the decline of SL - making it nearly impossible for anyone to earn money here. As I've said before, those entering SL have no market when most everything is free - they get frustrated and leave. I know many of them, and I also know more established creators who already left because they can't sell anything here anymore. Yes I agree there are many causes - an overabundance of freebies is one of them.

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lol, I never said I embrace freebies to stick it to the big guy, someone else said that.

I embrace freebies because I support any and all merchants and their right to price as they see fit. Just as much as I support others who want to charge what I personally may feel is a huge amount, because they feel their time/work/whatever is worth that. I tend to stick with the little guys because that's where I fit in best, and feel most comfortable. They aren't nearly as judgmental of me, my work, and my opinions as someone who might believe they are the best in their field(that's just been my experience). But that doesn't stop me from trying to understand another person's standpoint. I always try to remain open minded. It's because of the forums I've developed some of the opinions I have, that were once very different.

I never said no sales at all would be lost, because of a freebie. Actually, quite a few pages back, I said exactly that. I said that *some sales would be lost. I said that *because of that fact, and *because that happens to everyone (including myself), those are the moments when we need to look at what we're doing, possibly even change what we're doing, to compensate for it. I've nevre said freebies, in general, don't have any impact on sellers. I have simply said there is a lot more people can do to combat this. Because freebies are simply part of SL, and they have *always* been part of sl. There is nothing we can do to change that fact, but we CAN change their impact on us-at least somewhat. They are in-world as much as they are on marketplace-actually moreso inworld, really. That's my stance. So far most people haven't complained about in-world freebies, in fact this entire thread was based on a complaint about *marketplace* freebies. I honestly don't understand why some people are angry about MP ones, but not angry about in-world ones. When I asked, I got a condescending and rude reply about it. Which doesn't in any way help me understand. I wouldn't have asked questions if I weren't sincere. I don't ask people to give me their reasons or explain things, if I don't really want to know. Some people might, but I'm not one of them. If I truly thought there were no merit to the other side of the fence, I wouldn't even engage in conversation. That's just not a fun thing for me, lol. I engage because I want to understand where another person's opinion comes from. I'm a curious person, I like knowing where others are coming from, even when I don't agree. Makes it easier to converse with people. But maybe I''m weird and that's not normal, that's entirely possible.

I never said I wouldn't buy things from merchants who don't support freebies. A lot of posts were deleted, certainly not by me, I wouldn't say something and then later delete it. That's not my style, never has been, never will be. If I later regret something I say, I'm woman enough to admit it I do have certain things I won't support, certain merchants and such, but none of that has anything at all to do with freebies.

I think you may be confusing my words with those of others on a few points. Because I'm not fanatical about anything. I personally support all merchants, whether I agree with their opinions or not. I do strongly believe people could do far more to help themselves. Heck *I* could do far more to help my own self(which I've stated multiple times in this thread).But I support all merchants and their right to do as they please(within the TOS). That may be why I'm coming across as fanatical. I support other merchants' rights to be able to sell at whatever price point they deem fair, be it 0 or 100k. I like that in sl, we have this ability. I don't like seeing other merchants trying to suggest we should limit others, simply because they say so, though. That's something I do take issue with. I'm not trying to tell others they shouldn't be able to charge $100L, or $100,000L even, for something, so I don't personally like being told I shouldn't be able to give something away, or charge a small amount, if I so choose. That hardly seems fair.

I don't personally feel that freebies alone(be it inworld or on marketplace) are having the effect some others believe. That's just my opinion. I haven't seen any compelling evidence to the contrary, despite asking for it. I've never said (nor will I) that freebies have *no* effect on other merchants. They do. They could have an even worse effect too, on even more merchants. But I personally feel that merchants need to take more responsibility when things aren't going right. Not always try to lay blame on other merchants, or other people. Because often times, there IS more we can do to help ourselves. It's hard, definitely not always the easiest thing to do, but it's not impossible. Thousands of merchants are managing every single day. I won't negate that fact simply because a few people want me to believe freebies alone are killing the marketplace(which is what this thread was based on).

Some of the things I create, and actually sell, are things commonly given away in the communities I am part of. I KNOW my customers can easily get what I offer either at a much cheaper price, or in most cases free. That doesn't mean those other merchants are somehow my enemy, and I should be trying to stop them from doing what they are. When it happens to me(because it does, a LOT) I need to amp up my game. I need to get back in my zone and figure out why folks are going for B, rather than my A. Give them a reason to choose my A-an item they will pay for, and not B-an item they can get for free. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But at least in the end I can say I gave it my best, and I didn't go looking in another's backyard for the reason(s) why I failed(not that it's a complete failure, but, I did fail to sell my item, so in that right, it's a small failure). I get told all the time not to sell these things because "so and so" gives it away for free. Doesn't stop me from trying. Doesn't make me angry. Doesn't make me go looking for blame. If anything, it drives me to do better. Again, probably not an approach most take, but it's what I do.

Maybe that better explains my stance on things and why I feel the way I do.

 

[Madeliefste Oh]

It's more or less off topic in this thread, but since it is never off topic in your personal live, I like to wish you all best with your health, Luna. Take care, girl.

 

[Josh Susanto]

>You're onto something there. I think some of the complaints about marketplace vs. in-world shopping comes down to the fact that you "used" to be able to have more business models. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------That does tend to be behind most of arguments either for or against something here. Ceteris paribus, we should tend to prefer more options for both sellers and buyers. Of course, for sellers, that means not only more ways to succeed, but also more ways to fail.

[Josh Susanto]

I haven't yet heard from anyone who thinks a total camping ban was the right idea. I think I understand most of the arguments against camping, but I still don't see that nothing more could have been done to assure that the benefits of camping could outweigh the problems it allowed. The idea that campers were not participating at all is clearly incorrect. Camping, I actually made things while sandboxes were overgriefed by editing attachments I had put in my inventory for that purpose. I also reorganized my inventory, traded stuff and otherwise networked. All things that require a person to be logged in anway. But instead of just standing around while I did such things; I was also providing an additional animated environment element for other users, and accumulating money to be dumped into the Linden sink by later loading data in.

[Josh Susanto]

I know there are a few people who get my products just because they are free, but I prefer to think the larger pattern is that they might like to pay something for such products if they could be more confident in them. A few freebies gives people a chance to overcome their doubts about things like whether alpha plants can really look 3d without the standard cross formation before they proceed to some purchase that will require more trust on their part.

[Josh Susanto]

>at one point said you may embrace freebies because you want to 'stick it to the big guy".-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I somewhat understand the sentiment, but I'm not as mean-spirited as that myself. In my case it's more a matter of seeing something I think is overpriced and dropping the merchant a tiny hint to that effect by trying to offer something comparable or better for less. If I see something that's eggregiously overpriced, the temptation to offer a competing freebie is greater. More often, though, it's matter of simply providing customers with alternatives. If someone just wants to park a black helicopter on the roof without ever flying it around, they shouldn't have to pay for a functional many-prim helicopter. They can get my 1-prim helicopter instead for a lot less. That means that some other helicopters that cost a lot more might not get bought, but I think I can live with that. Expecting customers to pay extra for features they never intend to use (especially at a higher prim count) is not really in the spirit of good service.

[Rene Erlanger]

...

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Tari Landar wrote:

I'm not ignoring anything, well I wasn't. But you seem to lack the ability to converse with people who do not agree with your viewpoint without being condescending and rude. It's not really much of a conversation in that case.

I find it refreshing that others, despite the fatc that we don't see eye to eye, can still converse like grown adults. That's the sort of conversation I'm more interested in(and why i even remained in the thread to begin with). I am, well was, truly trying to understand others' opinions(that's why I ask questions) but I can't do that if all you want to do is be rude. Others can manage, you don't seem to be able to. In my book, that negates most of what you have to say. It's also why I doubt your actual experience. You can claim anything you want until the cows come home. Until you can explain your viewpoint without being rude, it won't mean much of anything to people.

_______________________________________________________________

 

...that's because it's so frustrating reading your posts, when you continue  with the same dribble.

You harp on repeatedly, that no one can provide a reason as to why Freebies in-world are any different from Marketplace, I took the trouble to explain why one can avoid the noise of "Freebies" in-world....but it seemed like it fell on deaf ears, as you'd continue with the same dribble in subsequent posts with similar statements. It seems you ignore replies, or statements or any counter arguments.....and prefer to stand on your own Soap-box reading your own text-bytes.

You try to re-write history stating that SLEX listed similar percentage freebies as it does on Marketplace today, when clearly that also is a nonsense. For the first 18mths of my SL life, the SLEX  search system was effectively my bible as the SL client did not have an adequate in-world Search system, until LL introduced the GSA Search engine at the beginning of 2008. You make assumptions about my actual SL experience (which I consider rude by the way....or at least do your homework !)....as any SL old timer Merchant can validate that I've been contributing to both Resident Answers & SLEX forums as far back as 2007.  (By the way I don't recognize your Avatar name from any of those forums)


You have mixed me up with other posters on this Thread, suggesting that I wanted the removal of Freebies from Marketplace. Can you provide a link to any of my messages where I've suggested that. ? Whilst I've never liked Freebies from when they first appeared in large quantities onto the Grid.....I wouldn't be so arrogant as to suggest their removal from either Marketplace or In-World.

The reason why I don't like Freebies....is more to do with evaluating it's impact on Second Life and it's economy over the next 2-3 years. It stands to reason, that with 2 opposing commercial cultures fighting over the middle ground....and the continuation of pumping of millions of Freebies onto the Main Grid, that it's bound to effect the SL economy in the long term. It's my belief that eventually prices of popular everyday items will priced below 50 L  due to market forces.  It's great for the Consumer, but unsustainable for those that rent Commercial lands and pay pricey LL tiers.or rents.


Anyone with a clue, must realise it's hard to justify renting land for a Store that costs say 7000 L p/mth (average 4096 sqm plot), whilst trying to sell most of their products at 1 L or 5 L or 10 L. This model is flawed and unsustainable when factoring the lack of growth to SL concurrency.....and particularly alarming when Land & Sim Tiers are "still" Linden Lab's main revenue stream.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that these forums are titled "Merchants" ...it's not exclusively just for Marketplace Merchants, as it also encompasses commerce & Merchants from the SL Grid too.

Ok, I've said my piece...as i don't particularly find you that engaging either.....touche'!!
I will leave you some facts to ponder over.

9th Jan 2011  - 24,811 Private Estate sims

15th Jan 2012 - 23,619

That's a loss of nearly 1200 privately held sims (5%) handed back to LL in the last year.
Lets assume they're a mix bag of Homestead and Full-Sims => ($125 + $295) /2 => $210 average monthly Tier => 1200 x 210 x 12 => $3,024,000 USD loss of income for LL during 2012 (equals 780 million Lindens..in case you're figuring out whether it's comparable to LL commissions from Marketplace)

....now factor in all the abandoned Mainland plots during 2011, which we have no public figures for. You can see that this model is flawed and looking pretty grim for Linden Lab. There's no doubt a percentage of those 1200 Estate sims will be of the Commercial variety . Aside from RL recession and I'm not implying it's due to Freebies (it sure doesn't help!)...the more likely cause is due to LL pumping Marketplace through their official Viewers and driving shopping traffic away from the Grid.

A... final final thought......if the 2 biggest Estates in SL (ACS Dreamland & RGF - own 15-16% of all Estate Sims), pulled out of SL overnight, the loss of their Tier income would practically wipe out all of Linden Lab's profitability and put it in the Red. Game Over!

Now you can see why Rodvik (LL CEO) announced that Linden Lab will be diversifying and working on new products outside of Second Life....as the existing business model is very fragile in it's current state. I'm sure they have crunched the numbers with "what if" scenarios to see where that break-even point is. e.g less 3000 -4000 SIM tier income (and if they haven't done so already, they really should be doing that as a priority)

[Josh Susanto]

Since people are apparently going to continue reading this whole thread no matter what happens, I guess this is as good a place as any to ask what you all think of charity casinos. I've mentioned before that, as a capitalist, I have ethical objections to gambling. I do not have ethical objections, though, to people making charitable donations of most kinds, and I'm frustrated that I don't see easy ways to do that inside SL, since I don't have any other convenient way to do it, myself. I'm not sure what the legalities are, but I see basically 2 possible ways of bringing back some form of gambling in a way that produces more benefits than problems. One way would be to have a gambling machine in which losses are paid to a specific RL nonprofit. The other way would be a gambling machine in which winnings are paid out to a specific nonprofit, rather than to the player. Obviously, I favor the former, but I would also like to see the latter if it should happen to be a better legal option. The nonprofits would obviously have to be licensed by LL, and LL could administer the whole casino at a small net loss, under the assumption that the good press and other indirect benefits are of some practical value. The benefits to the player are that gambling a little bit is fun (although I don't much like it, personally), and if administered correctly, not very expensive under normal use conditions, and that they are provided an easy way to make microdonations to any of various nonprofits any time they feel like it. The benefits to the nonprofits are both the donations themselves, and the publicity of being represented in a venue that is specifically about making donation decisions fun and easy for donors. The benefits to LL are that they get some of the better aspects of gambling culture to grow back, but with fewer of the problems associated with it. Does this sound possible or impossible?

[Madeliefste Oh]

---

Rene Erlanger wrote:

 

....now factor in all the abandoned Mainland plots during 2011, which we have no public figures for. ness model is very fragile in it's current state. I'm sure they have crunched the numbers with "what if" scenarios.

---

I don't know any figures about mainland either of course. But I do see what happens in my own neighbourhood.

2007/2008 no land available, everything was full, a mix of residential and commercial.

2009 everybody left. One plot after another was put for sale or just abandonned. Green grass as far as I could see from my place, except for two longtime residents who are there since 2005 or so. Now and then a 512 parcel was bought by someone, and then left within one or two months again.

2010 still very much green land, but here and there were parcels sold to breedable owners. First rabbits, then horses. I doubled my land, it was attractive because I could buy parcels next to mine for a low price.

2011 Most horses got sick and died, and business is coming back to mainland. I have a neighbour with a mall now, not sure he is doing well, I never see someone shopping there, I have a neighbour who has build homes for residental use. One has a few renters in skyboxes. And I doubled my land again, I think I paid about the same price for it as for my first 512 parcel. Landprices have dumped to almost nothing. At this moment there no land available anymore, at least not land that surrounds me. Here and there a smaller parcel that does not border my land.

So when this pattern that I see goes up for whole mainland, then mainland is doing pretty well.

[Tari Landar]

I'm not going to quote, but I'll address somethings, so I don't make this another long winded rant of mine.

I wasn't mixing you up with other people. I just tend to address not only multiple people, but multiple responses in one answer. At least, I was. That's probably why you thought I was addressing you, and only you, with some of my comments. I wasn't only addressing you, or only addressing certain things. This is my own fault and something I'll work on in the future, to avoid further confusion.

Of course you don't recognize my av name from previous forums. For one, I wasn't nearly as active in them as I am these ones.(was still active, just likely not the same places you were, and I was far more active in the xstreet forums) and secondly, this isn't my first av. This just happens to be my favorite av and the one I chose to stay with after I created it.(now I only have one alt that actually gets used and I don't think I've actually logged her in at all in about a year, could be wrong on that, she was mostly used for building, pics, stuff like that). But not being "seen" in the forums, doesn't in any way suggest I never read them. In fact I read a crap ton of what's on the forums, and yet when you look at my post count, it would suggest I'm not all that active. I just choose not to respond to probably 95% of what I read. I soak up information like a small child though, it fascinates me.

I appreciate you better explaining your stance.  Others may not care when folks get rude, but, it's a personal peeve of mine, to be honest. I don't find it necessary in, well, *any conversation. You may get frustrated with me(eh, I can be annoying, lol, we all can at times), but that's no reason to be rude. When I get annoyed, I stop reading/responding and walk away, or whatever.  I don't think people are so grand at explaining themselves when they get rude-and that's just going to make conversations crap(imo of course) and make it hard for me to even understand where you're coming from, or why.  If I truly didn't care what others thought, and didn't want to hear what they have to say, I honestly wouldn't ask. I may be an oddball in my actions and words, but I am still a human, and a grown adult. I somewhat expect those I meet here on the forums to be grown adults too, and act in the same manner I treat them. I respect others' opinions, and their rights to have them, whether I agree or not, no matter what.

[Madeliefste Oh]

---

Josh Susanto wrote:

Since people are apparently going to continue reading this whole thread no matter what happens, I guess this is as good a place as any to ask what you all think of charity casinos. I've mentioned before that, as a capitalist, I have ethical objections to gambling. I do not have ethical objections, though, to people making charitable donations of most kinds, and I'm frustrated that I don't see easy ways to do that inside SL, since I don't have any other convenient way to do it, myself. I'm not sure what the legalities are, but I see basically 2 possible ways of bringing back some form of gambling in a way that produces more benefits than problems. One way would be to have a gambling machine in which losses are paid to a specific RL nonprofit. The other way would be a gambling machine in which winnings are paid out to a specific nonprofit, rather than to the player. Obviously, I favor the former, but I would also like to see the latter if it should happen to be a better legal option. The nonprofits would obviously have to be licensed by LL, and LL could administer the whole casino at a small net loss, under the assumption that the good press and other indirect benefits are of some practical value. The benefits to the player are that gambling a little bit is fun (although I don't much like it, personally), and if administered correctly, not very expensive under normal use conditions, and that they are provided an easy way to make microdonations to any of various nonprofits any time they feel like it. The benefits to the nonprofits are both the donations themselves, and the publicity of being represented in a venue that is specifically about making donation decisions fun and easy for donors. The benefits to LL are that they get some of the better aspects of gambling culture to grow back, but with fewer of the problems associated with it. Does this sound possible or impossible?

---

This sounds so much off topic that I would advise you to start a different thread for it.

[Rene Erlanger]

I hear what you're saying Madeliefste....but your case could be isolated one and might not be replicated right across the entire Mainland Continents.Then again it could be the norm, because of the popularity of Linden Homes with new Premium subscribers. The last data i read was from Tyche Shepherd...that 40% of Mainland was empty (or Linden owned)..but that was in early 2011.

Nearly all of my Commercial lands outside my Partner's sim.....are on Mainland on 6 different sims. So i could tell you conflicting stories & experiences to yours. Some of my lands are in sought after areas e.g Garmisch on the old Continent snow regions (land values are higher there, than most of the new Continents)

The best way is to actually tour the Mainland regions and get a feel for the overall occupancy. I've always loved exploring SL in general...so sometimes I do exactly that and take time out. Although I have my own Estates sims...i've always loved Mainland.....i like its continuity, it's infrastructure of roads, railtracks, lakes, rivers and joined Sims of continious landscape.

Of late i see lots of land set for sale at 1 L p/sqm by Governor Linden....that's abandoned Land set for sale by LL, I think it's an automated process now, it doesn't just sit there as abandoned land. After 10 days it's up for sale. (Less Purple but more Yellow)

 

Lastly , it would be great if Mainland began to fill up again.....as it might give back some value to our lands through natural supply and demand.

[Madeliefste Oh]

---

Rene Erlanger wrote:

I hear what you're saying Madeliefste....but your case could be isolated one and might not be replicated right across the entire Mainland Continents.Then again it could be the norm, because of the popularity of Linden Homes with new Premium subscribers. The last data i read was from Tyche Shepherd...that 40% of Mainland was empty (or Linden owned)..but that was in early 2011.

---

Yep, that is well possible that mine is an isolated case. I'm not much of a traveller, and when I go out most of the cases it is with an aim to see something specific, an artshow or a sim that I will love according to friends. So I never travel to get an impression on how mainland is doing.

I might well be the case that people choose to buy some land in a neighbourhood where some live is a around, then in a complete abandonned sim. And yes, it might also be the cases that the new population is coming from Linden Home owners who grew out of their home.

[Rene Erlanger]

---

Tari Landar wrote:

I'm not going to quote, but I'll address somethings, so I don't make this another long winded rant of mine.

I wasn't mixing you up with other people. I just tend to address not only multiple people, but multiple responses in one answer. At least, I was. That's probably why you thought I was addressing you, and only you, with some of my comments. I wasn't only addressing you, or only addressing certain things. This is my own fault and something I'll work on in the future, to avoid further confusion.

Of course you don't recognize my av name from previous forums. For one, I wasn't nearly as active in them as I am these ones.(was still active, just likely not the same places you were, and I was far more active in the xstreet forums) and secondly, this isn't my first av. This just happens to be my favorite av and the one I chose to stay with after I created it.(now I only have one alt that actually gets used and I don't think I've actually logged her in at all in about a year, could be wrong on that, she was mostly used for building, pics, stuff like that). But not being "seen" in the forums, doesn't in any way suggest I never read them. In fact I read a crap ton of what's on the forums, and yet when you look at my post count, it would suggest I'm not all that active. I just choose not to respond to probably 95% of what I read. I soak up information like a small child though, it fascinates me.

I appreciate you better explaining your stance.  Others may not care when folks get rude, but, it's a personal peeve of mine, to be honest. I don't find it necessary in, well, *any conversation. You may get frustrated with me(eh, I can be annoying, lol, we all can at times), but that's no reason to be rude. When I get annoyed, I stop reading/responding and walk away, or whatever.  I don't think people are so grand at explaining themselves when they get rude-and that's just going to make conversations crap(imo of course) and make it hard for me to even understand where you're coming from, or why.  If I truly didn't care what others thought, and didn't want to hear what they have to say, I honestly wouldn't ask. I may be an oddball in my actions and words, but I am still a human, and a grown adult. I somewhat expect those I meet here on the forums to be grown adults too, and act in the same manner I treat them. I respect others' opinions, and their rights to have them, whether I agree or not, no matter what.

---

 

In the main, I'm not rude....but i can get frustrated at times for a variety of differing reasons. Whilst it might not be common...it is a negative trait that I've always had, and has been consistent since my first postings in 2007. Most Forum oldies would probably recognise this fiestyness...and I'm not going to pretend i'm an Angel and play happy Forum families.

I know what ticks me off...and that's usually when someone tries to put me down with a cheap shot remark....it all kicks off then! It's like a red rag to a bull! (Mickey are you reading?)

 

Anyway...apologies.....i guess when you implied that i wanted to get rid of Freebies or started to re-write SLEX history...it kind of lit a fuse.

[Rene Erlanger]

---

Madeliefste Oh wrote:

It's more or less off topic in this thread, but since it is never off topic in your personal live, I like to wish you all best with your health, Luna. Take care, girl.

 

---

Yep likewise Luna....i wish you a speedy recovery !

I always get a bit emotional when i hear something like this...having recently returned to SL only to find 2 dear designer friends had passed away. I kind of kicked myself for not being in SL at the time....but then again i was also having my own RL issues that needed to be taken care of. It's a hard balancing act at times.

[Rene Erlanger]

---

Josh Susanto wrote:

I haven't yet heard from anyone who thinks a total camping ban was the right idea. I think I understand most of the arguments against camping, but I still don't see that nothing more could have been done to assure that the benefits of camping could outweigh the problems it allowed. The idea that campers were not participating at all is clearly incorrect. Camping, I actually made things while sandboxes were overgriefed by editing attachments I had put in my inventory for that purpose. I also reorganized my inventory, traded stuff and otherwise networked. All things that require a person to be logged in anway. But instead of just standing around while I did such things; I was also providing an additional animated environment element for other users, and accumulating money to be dumped into the Linden sink by later loading data in.

---

I agree with you 100% and here we're on the same side of the fence.

I've done my best to improve the SL experience for at least 10 (currently) Avatars, that's all i can do in terms of giving back to the SL community. There are no direct  business benefits against these ongoing costs....but i'm glad that I can maintain these friendships in-world....and it's always nice when TP'ing in to find familiar friendly faces to speak to. It's not always about maximising profits. I know a ton of Creators here in SL that contribute a lot to RL Charities in terms of creative and money donations.

That's another aspect to consider whilst Commerce is being driven away from the Grid.