artifactsofmars Omegaman Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 https://releasenotes.secondlife.com/viewer/7.1.8.9375512768.html This new system is straight out of a bad horror film, or maybe Plan 9 from Outer Space. There are at least 3 editing modes (on Firestorm) that no one has ever heard of. PBR, and I swear, Blinn-Phong plus "media". At first it did not appear that the transparency could be adjusted. However the Chinese system appears to allow it. Applying textures and colors is also extremely complex. Just when I get things going good, along comes a Luddite with a wrench and drops it in the machinery. This is the editing system from hell. There will be a steep learning curve on this one. 😡 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 6 hours ago, artifactsofmars Omegaman said: There are at least 3 editing modes (on Firestorm) that no one has ever heard of. PBR, and I swear, Blinn-Phong plus "media". The "editing mode" option has been there for years. It used to be right under the color tint preview and with only two options, "Material" and "Media" (that is Media-On-A-Prim). What's new is that they've added PBR as a third option and changed the UI from a menu to a set of tabs. 6 hours ago, artifactsofmars Omegaman said: At first it did not appear that the transparency could be adjusted. However the Chinese system appears to allow it. Blinn-Phong is just an extremely nerdy name for SL's good old texture/material system. I'm not sure if it was a good idea to change the name to such an obscure one and I'm definitely not sure if it was a good idea to set PBR as the default. But unless I'm mistaken, this is taken from the official viewer so we should blame LL, not the Firestorm team. Edited June 22 by ChinRey Typo and foprgot to include the picture 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 25 minutes ago, ChinRey said: But unless I'm mistaken, this is taken from the official viewer so we should blame LL, not the Firestorm team. The new layout is is not LL's design. It was something the Firestorm team made. For reference, this is what the current LL viewer looks like Same as before. It defaults to 'Textures'. PBR is an option in the drop down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 41 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: The new layout is is not LL's design. It was something the Firestorm team made. Awww. @Beq Janus, are you reading this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Bardeen Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 Since I'm texturing two regions of landscaping rocks and stuff with both PBR and BP textures to cater for everyone, I prefer the Firestorm approach, which is very quick to click between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) Let's clear up some misconceptions. MEDIA has been in the texture tab for well over a decade = ever since you could do "media on a prim". It is NOT new. Those choices ARE in the Linden viewer once you click the TEXTURES drop down box from the TEXTURES pane. Firestorm has just made things "easier" to get to. You can STILL texture with legacy textures on their own. Folks in PBR viewers will see the legacy textures. OR you can learn more abut PBR and use that and/or use both (the best practice in my mind for now). I am SURE there are YouTube videos you can watch that will explain more --- likely there are ones made in FS and not the Liinden viewer. That would be best. Edited June 22 by Chic Aeon spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panterapolnocy Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 4 hours ago, ChinRey said: Blinn-Phong is just an extremely nerdy name for SL's good old texture/material system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinn–Phong_reflection_model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 21 minutes ago, panterapolnocy said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinn–Phong_reflection_model I know. I never claimed I wasn't extremely nerdy, did I? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artifactsofmars Omegaman Posted June 23 Author Share Posted June 23 9 hours ago, ChinRey said: The "editing mode" option has been there for years. It used to be right under the color tint preview and with only two options, "Material" and "Media" (that is Media-On-A-Prim). What's new is that they've added PBR as a third option and changed the UI from a menu to a set of tabs. Blinn-Phong is just an extremely nerdy name for SL's good old texture/material system. I'm not sure if it was a good idea to change the name to such an obscure one and I'm definitely not sure if it was a good idea to set PBR as the default. But unless I'm mistaken, this is taken from the official viewer so we should blame LL, not the Firestorm team. Then we have ourselves a little confusion here. I have done thousands of objects on SL, including 400 new female outfits and all I have ever seen is the texture window. My movie studio is second to none (in VR). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artifactsofmars Omegaman Posted June 23 Author Share Posted June 23 SL needs to post a plain language tutorial on what this all means and how to use it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 (edited) 45 minutes ago, artifactsofmars Omegaman said: I have done thousands of objects on SL, including 400 new female outfits and all I have ever seen is the texture window. I don't think you're the only one. Media-On-A-Prim is so flawed t has very limited use so most SL'ers never see any need to fiddle with the settings for it, not even if they are among the few who actually use the function occasionally. So those controls are easy to overlook but they have actually been hiding in plain sight under the texture tab all the time. For once I actually think they made a good UI decision: Keep a rarely used function out of sight and out of the way for most users but still easily accessible for the few who need it. 38 minutes ago, artifactsofmars Omegaman said: SL needs to post a plain language tutorial on what this all means and how to use it. LL doesn't do plain language tutorials, that's not their style. Remember that Second Life is made by software developers for software developers. The rest of us just have to try our best to make the most of it. Me, I actually kind'a like it this way since figuring out How Things Work in SL is a really good intellectual challenge. But I'm an incurable extreme nerd and it's understandable that most people don't feel that way. Edited June 23 by ChinRey 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiffy Voxel Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 I'm using Alchemy Viewer, which follows the same layout as the official LL viewer for the Texture panel. Since I've not been using Firestorm for a while now, this is the first time I've seen how they're handling the additional texturing options. Yes, 'Blinn-Phong' is a head-scratcher for most people, but perhaps 'Legacy' was deemed too vague? I've no idea. The Firestorm layout is very info-dense, that was my first reaction to seeing OP's screenshot. And it will cause problems for anyone creating tutorials on how to create & use PBR textures within Second Life — either duplicate instructions for those using the LL or Firestorm layout, for stick to one or the other layout. My two-penny-worth on the matter. 🪙🪙 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristy Aurelia Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 5 hours ago, artifactsofmars Omegaman said: SL needs to post a plain language tutorial on what this all means and how to use it. Its not that complicated: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/PBR_Materials 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panterapolnocy Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 On 6/23/2024 at 10:56 AM, Spiffy Voxel said: I'm using Alchemy Viewer, which follows the same layout as the official LL viewer for the Texture panel. If a person feels overwhelmed by the new texture panel in Firestorm, there is an option to - for now - use the old layout. Preferences -> Firestorm -> Build 2 -> "Use the new Firestorm texture panel in the tools floater (requires restart)" On 6/23/2024 at 6:01 AM, artifactsofmars Omegaman said: SL needs to post a plain language tutorial on what this all means and how to use it. There is that https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/toolbox_texture_tab if it would be any help. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 For what it's worth I think the Firestorm design is reasonable. With that said as someone who is a merchant on SL one of my concerns is that with the UI and terminology between the viewers differing so much, instructing customers on how to say tint their product becomes complicated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 Honestly though, if we're talking about ideal UI design if it were up to me I'd think about ditching the build window entirely:- The build window is trying to pull double duty as a power user tool and a new user tool and thus not being very good at either Every single tab is running out of space, there is no space to teach the user on the UI. We are relying on external documentation. It covers the viewport, getting in the way of you know... building If I were doing this from scratch I'd do something that probably seems radical to people who've been playing SL all this time but is the standard in every other program - Put the UI around the viewport. A build mode where the menu's are on the left/right/top/bottom of the screen. This is how every other creative tool operates. Think of Blender, Photoshop or just about any creative tool - The UI goes around the sides where it's not covering whatever you're working on, and makes full use of all the space around the sides. Something similar could work in SL, and would make creating easier and provide tonnes of UI space for all the information a newbie needs to learn how to use the tools they're using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quistess Alpha Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 3 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: If I were doing this from scratch I'd do something that probably seems radical to people who've been playing SL all this time but is the standard in every other program - Put the UI around the viewport. A build mode where the menu's are on the left/right/top/bottom of the screen. This is a problem with ~every window in SL, IMHO, every window needs to be 'dockable' to one side of the screen, rather than just floating about, tiling in some 'nice' manner that doesn't interfere with HUDs, (I'd like my nearby chat in the lower left, IMs lower right, Inventory whole left side, all easily collapsible and expandable) but maybe we can only dream. I actually like how compact the build window is compared to other windows though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panterapolnocy Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, Extrude Ragu said: If I were doing this from scratch I'd do something that probably seems radical to people who've been playing SL all this time but is the standard in every other program - Put the UI around the viewport. A build mode where the menu's are on the left/right/top/bottom of the screen. Frestorm tried something similar, dubbing it "DUI" - Dynamic User Interface. No other TPV or the Lab picked that idea or initial tech up, and it was not possible to rewrite the viewer alone. See https://www.firestormviewer.org/the-real-joke-dui-is-no-joke/ , https://modemworld.me/2014/04/02/firestorm-dynamic-user-iinterface-dui-its-a-real-prototype/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPFjwxiYzWI Edited June 26 by panterapolnocy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiffy Voxel Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 1 hour ago, panterapolnocy said: Frestorm tried something similar, dubbing it "DUI" - Dynamic User Interface. No other TPV or the Lab picked that idea or initial tech up, and it was not possible to rewrite the viewer alone. See https://www.firestormviewer.org/the-real-joke-dui-is-no-joke/ , https://modemworld.me/2014/04/02/firestorm-dynamic-user-iinterface-dui-its-a-real-prototype/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPFjwxiYzWI This was before my time — I joined Second Life in 2015 — so I missed this when it happened. It's something that would be great to have now, but alas I suspect it would require a massive overhaul of the viewer code. Then again, with the Mobile app now in beta-testing, it's clear that the Lab are willing to rethink the user interface, so perhaps some of that will eventually find its way to the desktop? (Whether that's a good or bad outcome depends on what features end up being ported...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artifactsofmars Omegaman Posted July 5 Author Share Posted July 5 On 6/26/2024 at 5:59 AM, panterapolnocy said: If a person feels overwhelmed by the new texture panel in Firestorm, there is an option to - for now - use the old layout. Preferences -> Firestorm -> Build 2 -> "Use the new Firestorm texture panel in the tools floater (requires restart)" There is that https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/toolbox_texture_tab if it would be any help. Thanks that will be of some help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 1 hour ago, artifactsofmars Omegaman said: Thanks that will be of some help. The SL Viewer is definitely cleaner and easier to use in this respect. In general, I don't mind the SL Viewer for uploading mesh, adding marketplace listings, etc and only use Firestorm when I need all the extra technical tools (for scripting, etc.. I love how FS provides the linkset number, face I'm currently on.. very nice for targeting stuff!) where SL Viewer has nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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