Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[AmeliaJ08]

41 minutes ago, animats said:

The basic situation now is pretty simple. Now you need a reasonably good GPU.

I have two desktop machines side by side. One has an NVidia 640 2GB, a GPU from 2012 that now costs about US$50. The other has an NVidia 3070, a GPU from 2020 that costs about US$500.

With Firestorm 6.x, both were acceptable for running SL. The low-end machine could get about 18 FPS in New Babbage, with about 75% GPU utilization. So, as usual, the viewer was limited by main-thread CPU speed.

On the low end machine, frame rate drops to 15FPS with Firestorm 7.x. Nothing seems to be able to get it above that speed. "Auto-tuning" doesn't help. GPU utilization is 100%.

With Firestorm 6.x on the high-end machine, FPS is still only 18 in New Babbage. GPU utilization is 39%.

On the high-end machine, though, frame rate goes up to 138 FPS. GPU utilization is at 87%. If I turn on every rendering feature, frame rate is 80 FPS in the same place.

So, at last, having a good GPU improves SL quality substantially.

This is going to be a problem for laptops with "integrated graphics". Many of them just don't have enough GPU engine, and you can't upgrade.

What to get now? The cheapest NVidia GPU of a current generation is the GeForce RTX 3050 8GB, for about US$200.

There's a 3050 6GB, currently around $170. Never used one but given the specs it should be very similar to a 1660 and those work just fine in SL even with PBR.

I'd just go used if I was on a budget like that though. 3060 12GB used is what, $200?

 

Edited June 22 by AmeliaJ08

[Modulated]

1 hour ago, BriannaLovey said:

Not everyone has a dedicated GPU. The vast majority of systems have only integrated graphics, most of which are inadequate for rendering PBR.

Integrated graphics have only ever been adequate for pushing browsers and mail clients and little else. And where are you getting these 'vast majority' stats? Just because you do it, doesn't mean its the vast majority.

Edited June 22 by Modulated

[AmeliaJ08]

Just now, Modulated said:

Integrated graphics have only ever been adequate for pushing browsers and mail clients and little else. And where are you getting these 'vast majority' stats? Just because you do it, doesn't mean its the vast majority.

I'd love to see the more modern Iris Xe, Radeon 680M/780M integrated GPUs running SL and see how they do but yeah, the previous generations like Intel UHD 600 series etc are inadequate for ALM even, 10-15fps slideshow isn't enough.

 

[Modulated]

Just now, AmeliaJ08 said:

I'd love to see the more modern Iris Xe, Radeon 680M/780M integrated GPUs running SL and see how they do but yeah, the previous generations like Intel UHD 600 series etc are inadequate for ALM even, 10-15fps slideshow isn't enough.

 

Those newer ones are probably good in optimized environments, but I bet SL would eat them for lunch and then some.

[BriannaLovey]

Just now, AmeliaJ08 said:

I'd love to see the more modern Iris Xe, Radeon 680M/780M integrated GPUs running SL and see how they do but yeah, the previous generations like Intel UHD 600 series etc are inadequate for ALM even, 10-15fps slideshow isn't enough.

 

Thats why most people with these systems left ALM disabled, myself included.

5 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

There's a 3050 6GB, currently around $170. Never used one but given the specs it should be very similar to a 1660 and those work just fine in SL even with PBR.

I'd just go used if I was on a budget like that though. 3060 12GB used is what, $200?

 

Or you could just use Cool VL viewer, which makes PBR optional: http://sldev.free.fr/

[Modulated]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Thats why most people with these systems left ALM disabled, myself included.

Or you could just use Cool VL viewer, which makes PBR optional: http://sldev.free.fr/

I just realized you are the same person spamming FS support about coolviewer...lol

[Arielle Popstar]

12 minutes ago, PekeNL said:

Except they aren't overengineering it. They're trying to come back from years of technical debt that is partially the fault of people running core 2 duo's expecting a smooth experience.

There are a lot of other areas that the Lab could have focused on updating for the 8 or so years that weren't just about making a prettier world for photographer's and landscapers.

[Arielle Popstar]

11 minutes ago, Modulated said:

Integrated graphics have only ever been adequate for pushing browsers and mail clients and little else. And where are you getting these 'vast majority' stats? Just because you do it, doesn't mean its the vast majority.

Oz when he was still around, mentioned on occasion how quite a few were even challenged for EEP when it was being rolled out. Not likely changed all that much since.

[Cristiano Midnight]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There are a lot of other areas that the Lab could have focused on updating for the 8 or so years that weren't just about making a prettier world for photographer's and landscapers.

It is not just for photographers and landscapers. Better looking materials benefit sales for merchants, and end users have nicer looking items as well. On top of that, switching to PBR opens the door for other system improvements in the future. It is not one and done. While SL is still held together with duct tape and it is amazing sometimes it all works, modernizing the graphics engine has benefits beyond just making it prettier.

[BillFletcher]

1 hour ago, BriannaLovey said:

 

Such a viewer already exists. It is called Cool VL Viewer, and you can get it here: http://sldev.free.fr/

You can disable PBR in it, unlike any other viewer.

I downloaded that and will try it next time I have the chance to get into SL

[Ceka Cianci]

I like how the textures have more depth to them.. Even in older things like my Warehouse, the bricks seem to have more depth to them in the walls and my home on the ground from Skye which is a few years old.. The tiles look like tiles with grout depth as well..

I'm not really noticing anything yet that really feels bad to me.. But then again, it's only been around an hour so far.. hehehe

I'm gonna go exploring and see how the rest of the world looks that I come across..

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

It is not just for photographers and landscapers. Better looking materials benefit sales for merchants, and end users have nicer looking items as well. On top of that, switching to PBR opens the door for other system improvements in the future. It is not one and done. While SL is still held together with duct tape and it is amazing sometimes it all works, modernizing the graphics engine has benefits beyond just making it prettier.

Maybe though I don't think it is in general worth the cost to many end users. What I see is that PBR is all about the looks, as EEP was before it. The Lab needs to stop and smell the roses and realize there is other problems that make SL difficult to use in comparison to other platforms. Focusing only on making things better for a small segment of users is not going to do much for those who are not here for the prettiness factor.

[Extrude Ragu]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

weren't just about making a prettier world for photographer's and landscapers.

I think this statement is ill-informed. The primary reason LL are upgrading their technology is creators.

Why would a creator choose a platform to create on, where

1 - They encounter more difficulty creating
2 - The tools are more limited
3 - The users spend less money and thus they earn less money
4 - The skills they invest in learning are not transferrable or provide them business opportunities beyond SL.

?

Linden Labs is under intense pressure to modernise and standardize from its creators, and is continuously losing them to other platforms due to how far behind with the times SL has gotten. For LL, modernising is quite the opposite of suicide - It is basic survival.

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Maybe though I don't think it is in general worth the cost to many end users. What I see is that PBR is all about the looks, as EEP was before it. The Lab needs to stop and smell the roses and realize there is other problems that make SL difficult to use in comparison to other platforms. Focusing only on making things better for a small segment of users is not going to do much for those who are not here for the prettiness factor.

It is going to make it better for the users with more money to spend, which in the end is all LL really has the incentive to care about.

[Cristiano Midnight]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Maybe though I don't think it is in general worth the cost to many end users. What I see is that PBR is all about the looks, as EEP was before it. The Lab needs to stop and smell the roses and realize there is other problems that make SL difficult to use in comparison to other platforms. Focusing only on making things better for a small segment of users is not going to do much for those who are not here for the prettiness factor.

You are making a lot of assumptions, including that you know what is best for their platform better than LL. Are there other things I would love to see? Yes. Third party viewers are doing a lot of the heavy lifting on QoL improvements.

Do I understand that both EEP and PBR both have continued to modernize a 21 year old platform to help its longevity? Yes. That is incredibly important too. SL needs to continue to grow and attract new users in addition to retaining existing ones, so it is a balance. Things change, it is the nature of technology.

[Modulated]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

It is going to make it better for the users with more money to spend, which in the end is all LL really has the incentive to care about.

The gnashing of teeth, here , there and everywhere. One gets on board or one gets left behind, same for you , me and everyone.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I think this statement is ill-informed. The primary reason LL are upgrading their technology is creators.

Why would a creator choose a platform to create on, where

1 - They encounter more difficulty creating
2 - The tools are more limited
3 - The users spend less money and thus they earn less money
4 - The skills they invest in learning are not transferrable or provide them business opportunities beyond SL.

?

Linden Labs is under intense pressure to modernise and standardize from its creators, and is continuously losing them to other platforms due to how far behind with the times SL has gotten. For LL, modernising is quite the opposite of suicide - It is basic survival.

And what I am saying is that it can't always be for the greater benefit of the creator, especially the higher end ones that are semi professional to professional. That's what to my mind has been the focus for the past 10+ years. Before that most of us where able to do some creating and didn't have to buy to keep up with the Joneses. Increasingly the Creative people are a smaller and smaller minority being catered to. That to me is the suicidal path SL is on.

[Cristiano Midnight]

1 minute ago, Modulated said:

The gnashing of teeth, here , there and everywhere. One gets on board or one gets left behind, same for you , me and everyone.

I haven't been around for a big sky is falling moment in awhile. It is something to see. Are there genuine concerns? Yes. Is it also overblown? Absolutely.

[Cristiano Midnight]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

And what I am saying is that it can't always be for the greater benefit of the creator, especially the higher end ones that are semi professional to professional. That's what to my mind has been the focus for the past 10+ years. Before that most of us where able to do some creating and didn't have to buy to keep up with the Joneses. Increasingly the Creative people are a smaller and smaller minority being catered to. That to me is the suicidal path SL is on.

You literally do not have to buy anything in SL. Keeping up with the Jones is a choice. Creators drive the platform. Without content, what is there to do?

[AmeliaJ08]

6 minutes ago, Modulated said:

The gnashing of teeth, here , there and everywhere. One gets on board or one gets left behind, same for you , me and everyone.

And for the avoidance of doubt "getting on board" means buying pretty much any Nvidia GPU (or a laptop containing a mobile Nvidia GPU) manufactured in the past... 7 years? which I'm kinda shocked people apparently haven't done since they probably weren't even using Advanced Lighting Model without it.

Saying that I guess you could maybe even go back to the Nvidia 900 series (2014) and get somewhat okay results, it'll definitely run okay on a 1060 for example.

 

 

 

Edited June 22 by AmeliaJ08

[RicDelMoro]

Do any of you know any NOOB that has a maximum of 6 months in SL ? Or how long has it been since you seen a legitimate noob, one of those who doesn't even know how to use an AO ? 

[Cristiano Midnight]

1 minute ago, RicDelMoro said:

Do any of you know any NOOB that has a maximum of 6 months in SL ? Or how long has it been since you seen a legitimate noob, one of those who doesn't even know how to use an AO ? 

I have helped probably 10 of them in the past few months.

[BriannaLovey]

5 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

And for the avoidance of doubt "getting on board" means buying pretty much any Nvidia GPU (or a laptop containing a mobile Nvidia GPU) manufactured in the past... 7 years? which I'm kinda shocked people apparently haven't done since they probably weren't even using Advanced Lighting Model without it.

Saying that I guess you could maybe even go back to the Nvidia 900 series (2014) and get somewhat okay results, it'll definitely run okay on a 1060 for example.

 

 

 

Why don't you set up a charity to buy people hardware then? No? Opinion discarded, I will proceed with my current plans to build a base of users large enough to halt the demand for PBR products.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

You are making a lot of assumptions, including that you know what is best for their platform better than LL. Are there other things I would love to see? Yes. Third party viewers are doing a lot of the heavy lifting on QoL improvements.

Do I understand that both EEP and PBR both have continued to modernize a 21 year old platform to help its longevity? Yes. That is incredibly important too. SL needs to continue to grow and attract new users in addition to retaining existing ones, so it is a balance. Things change, it is the nature of technology.

I make observations and from those spring assumptions. Like the fact that they have a devil of  time holding on to new users. Why even talk about them as the Lab has completely failed in attracting and keeping new users. There is a reason for that and it isn't because SL isn't pretty enough. EEP was a waste of time as likely overall PBR will be, aside from the need for better hardware. 

Once LL puts some focus on a better and more up to date with the end user in mind then it has been, they might actually start being able to hold onto new users. Things like a more intuitive Inventory, graphical even. An undo button to revert to the last thing worn. What platform out there has no freaking undo (Ctrl+Z) button for when dressing and undressing? The SL viewer is old because it is still stuck in a pre millenial mode and is barely past MS-Dos, never mind gluing on a prettier graphics engine.

People don't come here because we have a large creator base but for the stuff they could do and in that way, SL is failing as it is no further ahead for the end user then it was 20 years ago.

[Cristiano Midnight]

3 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Why don't you set up a charity to buy people hardware then? No? Opinion discarded, I will proceed with my current plans to build a base of users large enough to halt the demand for PBR products.

To what end? They are not going to rollback PBR, even if no products use PBR materials (which spoiler alert - they already do). Did you try to boycott EEP too?