So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Codex Alpha]

1 minute ago, Starberry Passion said:

 

How is anything I just said a panic or playing dumb? Not following.

"Just because I sharpened it into a point, doesn't make it a knife.. I have a reciept for it being a spoon" = Playing dumb.

And sorry if my response seemed to single you out. Part of it was responding to you, and the end part making a general statement.

If what anyone says doesn't apply to  you, just discard it

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Sorry - I almost missed your reply question until someone else replied to it.

The answer is:  My idea was for the "legalists". 

I do not myself support it or have an opinion on it, but since some are discussing legal terms, I was suggesting that perhaps it is something specific they could discuss instead of the generic "obscenity" definitions, etc. 

Who knows, their contribution with specific information could be on-topic for the TOS changes.

Oh. I believe Flower's point was that there have been cases of prosecution in the US for being in possession of fictional drawings/media, which may be one reason for the TOS updates. I don't wanna get into all that, though.

 

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

This is why - MUCH earlier in the thread - I touched on ferals vs. anthros vs. Nekos. 

I ASSUME that Nekos are most likely to be impacted, being the most human.  (Even if it turned out that according to "some definitions", the others are "doing bad stuff" too.)

The reason I dropped the topic (although it came up just now yay), is I assumed - possibly wrongly - that Furries are outside of the discussion and possibly not even a consideration of the TOS changes.

Nekos would be impacted, of course, IF they're using child bodies or openly presenting as teens or walking that fine line. They're usually just humans with human skins and ears and a tail (sorry nekos!).

My own neko uses a hybrid human/cat head and a fur skin (I think it's PG, but don't quote me...I'd have to check), but is fully adult, so likely not affected. Closer to an adult furry.

 

4 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

This is a good point!

Of course it's tricky since there is no age of consent for animals? 🤔

Nor is there any age at which ***** is considered legal...

So I guess it may just be safest for LL to ban neko/furry sex entirely?!  

LMAO, I don't know. Furries are a whole other thing. Maybe not relevant. Maybe relevant. 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

16 minutes ago, Leslie Trihey said:

A certain user's "Minority of walking AR violations" or whatever she calls them would cost LL a huge chunk of money to lose.

Walking ToS Violation Abuse Report Clickbait.

And not as much money as losing EVVERYBODY else due to the platform being closed down after lawsuits following a media scandal, or from your clique's plans to victimise the Adult Avatar majority.

 

[Starberry Passion]

Hairstyle stops being a hairstyle at a certain age, after a certain age it becomes a statement 

also, I don't think they'd make ponytail a child's hairstyle anytime soon, automatically.

You know what many women do when they are running, working somewhere and don't want their hair in the way, some of them do it while eating food, so do it for convenience. They put their hair in a ponytail.

A hairstyle makes an outfit and there are different hairstyles that can break an outfit or is just right.

None is more versatile than the Ponytail, when wanting convenience. 

[Leslie Trihey]

Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Walking ToS Violation Abuse Report Clickbait.

And not as much money as losing EVVERYBODY else due to the platform being closed down after lawsuits following a media scandal, or from your clique's plans to victimise the Adult Avatar majority.

 

The TOS, old and new already covered/covers SL legally. You want to be a victim so bad it's adorable.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Oh. I believe Flower's point was that there have been cases of prosecution in the US for being in possession of fictional drawings/media, which may be one reason for the TOS updates. I don't wanna get into all that, though.

Yes, I feel that is not really on-topic. But in general, the "depiction of asterisk-asterisk-asterisk" is bad, whether or not there are cases that set precedence. 

People tend to get stuck on the "why" question without apparently understanding, "because it is bad".

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Nekos would be impacted, of course, IF they're using child bodies or openly presenting as teens or walking that fine line. They're usually just humans with human skins and ears and a tail (sorry nekos!).

My own neko uses a hybrid human/cat head and a fur skin (I think it's PG, but don't quote me...I'd have to check), but is fully adult, so likely not affected. Closer to an adult furry.

My only Neko is my main. He / I wouldn't be impacted. My other "anthro's" that I actually use are all "lion heads" so technically not Nekos (they do not use modified human heads with special skins).

3 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

LMAO, I don't know. Furries are a whole other thing. Maybe not relevant. Maybe relevant. 

I know, right? Next they won't let "consenting housecats of adult age" breed with each other.  Sounds like I'm joking, but it's one of those things that probably needs to be answered.

Realistically: I suspect the entire Nekos / Furries part of the TOS will not come up unless it becomes a controversy, or if someone abuses using "young" Nekos / Furries to get around the "child asterisk-asterisk-asterisk" TOS rules.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Leslie Trihey said:

You want to be a victim so bad it's adorable.

Honestly: I thought Zal just likes to mock things.  OTHER people are victims. 

No offense @Zalificent Corvinus - trying to explain things to newer users is harder than you'd think.

 

[Monika Skydancer]

3 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

None is more versatile than the Ponytail, when wanting convenience. 

Yeah I'm short, petite & have a ponytail, but I got no worries anyone's gonna think I run a child avi.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Leslie Trihey said:

The TOS, old and new already covered/covers SL legally. You want to be a victim so bad it's adorable.

Back in the first 30 or so pages of this thread, one of your clique claimed the new ToS was "punishing everybody".

I replied that no it wasn't, it's punishing your clique, and that the punishment for EVERYBODY else will happen "when the other shoe drops".

That's the "we are looking again at our age verification" thing LL have said.

When they bring in some broken draconian restrictions on everyone else, because they failed to ban your clique back in 2007.

 

[Codex Alpha]

3 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Hairstyle stops being a hairstyle at a certain age, after a certain age it becomes a statement 

also, I don't think they'd make ponytail a child's hairstyle anytime soon, automatically.

You know what many women do when they are running, working somewhere and don't want their hair in the way, some of them do it while eating food, so do it for convenience. They put their hair in a ponytail.

A hairstyle makes an outfit and there are different hairstyles that can break an outfit or is just right.

None is more versatile than the Ponytail, when wanting convenience. 

Sorry but now you're cheating. This is 'moving the goalposts' to talk about a ponytail, when we were discussing 'piggy tails'.

You will find it very hard to find someone that thinks piggy tails is a classic and common 'adult' hairstyle - as it was traditionally worn by small children... and why people who like to have fantasies about children, or present as children may also include 'piggy tails' and 'lollipops' and 'teddy bears' to PRESENT younger than their real age, or their base avatar.

Of course we have a character like Harley Quinn, who is and adult, and just becuase she wears piggytails doesn't make her a child, but the whole point of Harley is to present a 'child-like' personality, a fake innocence to her - even though she's actually a cold blooded killer.

Harley Quinn avatar would not be considered a 'child avatar', even with piggy tails.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

26 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

This is a good point!

Of course it's tricky since there is no age of consent for animals? 🤔

Nor is there any age at which ***** is considered legal...

So I guess it may just be safest for LL to ban neko/furry sex entirely?!  

Animals can’t give consent, and beastility is illegal almost everywhere.

😬

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

10 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

True, but the entire 'presentation' would be considered, as well as what the user is doing with the avatar.

Noone saying that piggie tails on a gray-haired wrinkled old lady makes her a child.

Seriously people gotta stop playing dumb, or at least stop panicing.

I don't think people are "playing" dumb so much as they're uninformed, because LL have yet to inform us of the precise meaning behind certain things.

You're right that governance will most likely consider multiple factors but without knowing exactly what factors and how much they may impact LL's decision there's bound to be a lot of confusions and questions.

For example, if an avatar is perceived as "under-aged" by someone so they file a report what other criteria are LL going to consider.  Does the fact that they occasionally call their partner "Daddy" matter (and will LL go to the lengths of finding out they were wearing an eight foot tall amazonian avatar at the time)?  How much impact does describing yourself as "sweet and innocent" in your profile have on LL's decision, what other items of clothings will be a contributing factor and if so how much?

Without knowing exactly what LL will and will not take into consideration and exactly what their perception of under-age behaviour and appearance is, people have very little option but to debate endlessly while they await further clarification.

[Starberry Passion]

2 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Sorry but now you're cheating. This is 'moving the goalposts' to talk about a ponytail, when we were discussing 'piggy tails'.

You will find it very hard to find someone that thinks piggy tails is a classic and common 'adult' hairstyle - as it was traditionally worn by small children... and why people who like to have fantasies about children, or present as children may also include 'piggy tails' and 'lollipops' and 'teddy bears' to PRESENT younger than their real age, or their base avatar.

Of course we have a character like Harley Quinn, who is and adult, and just becuase she wears piggytails doesn't make her a child, but the whole point of Harley is to present a 'child-like' personality, a fake innocence to her - even though she's actually a cold blooded killer.

Harley Quinn avatar would not be considered a 'child avatar', even with piggy tails.

Pigtails, too, are traditional, also if you were reading, someone said something about ponytails in which I replied to them about ponytails, you were not on my mind, when I said anything about ponytail

[Leslie Trihey]

Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Back in the first 30 or so pages of this thread, one of your clique claimed the new ToS was "punishing everybody".

I replied that no it wasn't, it's punishing your clique, and that the punishment for EVERYBODY else will happen "when the other shoe drops".

That's the "we are looking again at our age verification" thing LL have said.

When they bring in some broken draconian restrictions on everyone else, because they failed to ban your clique back in 2007.

 

I believe the exact wording was "Slippery slope" which isn't an unfair concern to have when it comes to free expression being compromised.

[Coffee Pancake]

17 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Where is it and time?

 

https://second.life/calendar

Quote Goverance User Group WhenThu, May 9, 2pm – 3pm DescriptionDiscussion of topics relating to safety and security in Second Life. Please note this does not include the discussion of Reports anyone has filed, the outcome of investigations, or potential actions taken on abuse, DMCA or copywrite issues. Normal schedule is to meet every 2nd Thursday from 2:00pm - 3:00pm PT Location: https://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services4/228/16/28

[Love Zhaoying]

I apologize for singling out "pigtails" out of context.  I probably should have been more specific like, "pigtails AND a 'baby dress' AND kid's shoes", etc.

It's the "whole package" that makes people think, "is that a kid"?  Not just "the short one looks like a kid" because they are "short".  

Anyway, we have discussed "ad nauseum" now, that the TOS will be challenging to apply based on "looks alone".  More will be taken into account, almost always. I'd bet my whiskers on it!

 

Edited May 8 by Love Zhaoying

[Zalificent Corvinus]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

if someone abuses using "young" Nekos / Furries to get around the "child asterisk-asterisk-asterisk" TOS rules.

"When" not "If", and you're a decade and a half late on that.

[Starberry Passion]

[Leslie Trihey]

13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Honestly: I thought Zal just likes to mock things.  OTHER people are victims. 

No offense @Zalificent Corvinus - trying to explain things to newer users is harder than you'd think.

 

Oh I remember her well from a vehicle controversy awhile back. As for the new user thing I'm not sure if that was directed at me but my SL account is months away from being old enough to vote.

 

Though if you meant the forums, fair, I only recently got into them.

Edited May 8 by Leslie Trihey

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Realistically: I suspect the entire Nekos / Furries part of the TOS will not come up unless it becomes a controversy, or if someone abuses using "young" Nekos / Furries to get around the "child asterisk-asterisk-asterisk" TOS rules.

I don't know. Furry...controversies...do exist in the real world and perhaps in SL, but whether or not that's all included in the rules, I can't even begin to guess. I think we'll need clarification, or at least a list of bodies that require layers. That'd help a bit.

 

*looks up* Oh gosh, we're on hairstyles now, too? Listen, I would rock pigtails on my fully-grown male adults - dread versions, if I could find them. Knock yourselves out with that one. 😂

[Codex Alpha]

4 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Pigtails, too, are traditional, also if you were reading, someone said something about ponytails in which I replied to them about ponytails, you were not on my mind, when I said anything about ponytail

Go ahead, just ignore the majority of my response.. as is a tactic of many to skirt around the issue.

Quit playing games. Yes Pigtails are 'traditional', traditional style for children.

Wow, people will really argue this stuff, in some bid to GASLIGHT ('attempt to reframe the reality of a situation')  any viewer of their avatar as being a child.
See how that works out for you and others.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

*looks up* Oh gosh, we're on hairstyles now, too? Listen, I would rock pigtails on my fully-grown male adults - dread versions, if I could find them. Knock yourselves out with that one. 😂

Ack! If I wrote "ponytails" earlier, yes - I meant "pigtails"!

[Alwin Alcott]

5 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

"When" not "If", and you're a decade and a half late on that.

the furries are most active on their own regions, it's less public, but also existing, as in nearly any avatar style.
As it's all rp, it's a bit strange that's not included.

Edited May 8 by Alwin Alcott

[Codex Alpha]

5 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Those aren't piggy tails.

Edited May 8 by Codex Alpha

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Ack! If I wrote "ponytails" earlier, yes - I meant "pigtails"!

Either or. I wear ponytails a LOT on my male avatars, mostly due to the back clipping issues when wearing their hair down. Pigtails are fair game, too. Hair is about as useless as height as an indicator of anything.