Why Are There Any Microparcels…

[BilliJo Aldrin]

23 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I had to check that Firestorm hadn't actually crippled normal Search. Other than burying it under a "Websearch" tab, it's all there where it belongs:

While Firestorm's idiosyncratic "Land Sales" tab is still returning sub-512 parcels, I really wouldn't expect that to last indefinitely, given that the Lab's and other viewers show these results, from that Websearch / Land to buy or rent tab:

 

 

 

I was using search from the dashboard home page.

And why would or should firestorm block small parcel land sale listings just to satisfy a few whiners?

Edited December 5, 2023 by BilliJo Aldrin
added words

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Qie was saying the second life search is way better , and now u agree that is useless for my purpose.

Sorry, I hadn't read the entire conversation and missed the overall topic.

 

The "Websearch" in Firestorm is just Linden Lab's official search page, which is the only way to search anything in the official viewer. Firestorm doesn't control it in any way.

https://search.secondlife.com/

 

I agree that websearch is a much worse search in almost every way. It's slow, the UI and filters are clunky (and lacks many features from legacy searches), and the results are rarely what I'm looking for. The "Land Sales" (and every other tab) are legacy features that Firestorm has preserved.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Qie Niangao]

5 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I was using search from the dashboard home page.

And why would or should firestorm block small parcel land sale listings just to satisfy a few whiners?

I don't see any point in arguing the "should" with you, but they would if the Lab stops sending them the data, the same data they quit returning in their own search results.

Of course it may just be a mistake. The 512 floor corresponds to the very longstanding minimum parcel size for Event listings, so maybe somebody overgeneralized from that. But personally I wouldn't base a hobby on that theory.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

22 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I don't see any point in arguing the "should" with you, but they would if the Lab stops sending them the data, the same data they quit returning in their own search results.

Of course it may just be a mistake. The 512 floor corresponds to the very longstanding minimum parcel size for Event listings, so maybe somebody overgeneralized from that. But personally I wouldn't base a hobby on that theory.

why should 512 be the minumum? Thats 16 by 32. 16 by 16 would be sufficient for some purposes.

Personally i think 8 by 8 is usable too.

I’ve decorated 64’s i’ve bought to flip

a pond, overhanging tree, cuddle blanket, some dragon flies, you are only limited by your imagination, anyone can build big, it takes real creativity to build small.

you can do a lot with 20 prims 😁

Edited December 5, 2023 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff

[Love Zhaoying]

Try submitting a JIRA.

[Stephanie Misfit]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:17 AM, BilliJo Aldrin said:

sure we all know why micro parcels come into existance, my point was why wouldnt someone with a 4096 set their land to group and pick up another 400 sqm worth of prims. 

I suspect its because they dont understand the concept of deed to group, thinking why do i need a group, its just my private house.

There is no minimun parcel size in the inworld search. every 16sqm parcel i ever bought was from a land sale search for price less than 250 L

Maybe they don't want to support certain egregious land-selling practices. I know I would not.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Mistress Morbid said:

Maybe they don't want to support certain egregious land-selling practices. I know I would not.

I had a 4096 on the same sim as my main place. I kept slicing off strips to allow me to buy my ad parcels for the 2020 election. I think i have 256 sq m left.

Oh and as I sliced the land, i abandoned it, so i guess i was wrong, people do abandon land on Zindra.

I was up to 47 ad parcels before LL changed the rules, but it was okey, I sold them all for a nice profit.

😂

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:39 PM, Qie Niangao said:

The 10% group bonus isn't only a way to use microparcels, it's also one of the ways they come into existence, when buyers carve out just the area that maximizes the bonus.

(It's not the only origin. There are also landowners who really want to squeeze their 32x32m prefab onto a nice square 1024 and need to carve away extra chunks attached to that square that exceed their tier. Et voilà, a new microparcel is born.)

On the subject of "a bit more imagination": not all Mainland parcels need to be eligible for sale. Parcels under the Search listing minimum (144 m² if memory serves) could just as well be only available for transfer from a Land Linden. This change would dramatically reduce asymmetric blight: the moral hazard of one 16 diminishing the value of tens of thousands of square meters surrounding it.

Not that the Lab will ever do it. Residents are not the only ones who lack imagination.

You're forgetting our glorious past, Comrade.

Back in the day, at least through 2004 if not latter, when you abandoned a parcel, it INSTANTLY, without you doing anything, disintegrated into 16m parcels all on its own, each for sale for $1/m.

I'll never forget getting some First Land, and all excited as a newbie about building my little cabin and placing a little tree on this 512 parcel available only to avatars of a certain young age (a program since discontinued), and I clicked on the wrong button, and all of a sudden vultures came and began to eat my land.

I couldn't figure out what happened at first, as land bots, which were not only allowed but encouraged as "science," came and began to feast on my land in chunks. I hurriedly tried to buy back my own land, but it was now a checkerboard.

This was DELIBERATE as Philip thought it would be grand if people of good will, working together in harmony on a sim, sometimes joined in holy grouped land communes, could then "get a few extra prims". This disintegrated parcel would lay there for months on end, as neighbours of good will came and fetched a 16m now and then, like borrowing a cup of sugar -- but only if they needed it.

He never envisioned extortionist ad farming, "networked ad systems" selling junk like "work at home" scams, and spinning billboards. There were no rules about any of these for FOUR LONG YEARS as groups of us continued to lobby the Lab to bring order to this chaos. Every sim that had First Land on it as a checkerboard -- to be avoided on the auction - turned into blighted masses of picked-away land abandoned either accidentally or on purpose, when neighbours put up giant towers or spinning junk on their land because "science".

Eventually there was more of a warning and a nag screen "Are you sure you really want to do this" put on the viewer.

Who are the people who did this early ad farming and came and deliberately gobbled first land, making dozens of alts and deploying dozens of bots? These weren't pure subsistence farmers from Brazil or Turkey. These were geeks in California earning six figures (as I discovered live, and in person, going to various "metaverse" and "SL meet-up" conferences of that era) who wanted to "see what would happen" or "see what people would do" -- you know, "Science". Lord of the Flies science.

These patches of gobbled land were sometimes inland, sometimes on prime waterfront, sometimes in water (the Lindens set up decades of conflict generators by selling the water in front of waterfront land parcels), oh, and sometimes on roadside. Eventually years past, the Lindens banned bots in some ways, or those land barons got tired -- some of them started college. Some of them went to work for Intel, which at that time was a competitor for the Lab with its own prototype virtual world that never got off the ground.

The OP is not in good faith here, and is merely channeling the spirit of those early "scientists". The Lindens could fix this. But they're "scientists," too, in a Lab.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/5/2023 at 7:15 PM, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I had a 4096 on the same sim as my main place. I kept slicing off strips to allow me to buy my ad parcels for the 2020 election. I think i have 256 sq m left.

Oh and as I sliced the land, i abandoned it, so i guess i was wrong, people do abandon land on Zindra.

I was up to 47 ad parcels before LL changed the rules, but it was okey, I sold them all for a nice profit.

😂

"Let them talk," is really the best policy on a thread like this. 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:48 AM, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Sorry, I hadn't read the entire conversation and missed the overall topic.

 

The "Websearch" in Firestorm is just Linden Lab's official search page, which is the only way to search anything in the official viewer. Firestorm doesn't control it in any way.

https://search.secondlife.com/

 

I agree that websearch is a much worse search in almost every way. It's slow, the UI and filters are clunky (and lacks many features from legacy searches), and the results are rarely what I'm looking for. The "Land Sales" (and every other tab) are legacy features that Firestorm has preserved.

Let's be more precise here, Comrade.

When Oz Linden (May his memory be a blessing) ruled that 1.23 had to die, and SL version 2.0 had to come into being, the Lindens destroyed search. They made it work way, way worse than it had before. That's because at that time, they decided the Google Search Appliance would be "just the thing" instead of MySquirrel lol tables which are oh=so-archaic. That a finite virtual world constructed on not-quite-the-same-principles as the vasty World Wide Web may not do so well with GSA didn't occur to them and still hasn't. Since then they have gone through all kinds of things, Apache this and whatever that and reticulated splines, and occasionally it gets a little better and then takes a dive to being god-awful. "Land Store" with all of its works is a particular horror. This is on the regular SL viewer.

It's one of the main reasons that everyone flocked over to Firestorm -- search works. Search, which is the lifestream of a virtual world for shopping and finding things to do and people to meet.

The reason for this is because Cinders (a heroine and goddess of SL to whom I have erected a monument in the Lost Garden of Slosser) ruled that FS should preserve "legacy search" from 1.23 and not scrap it and slavishly emulate 2.0 This didn't "just happen". This happened because one dev in that shall we say eclectic group was able to push through something that certain other fanboys didn't care about or thought was irrelevant. They didn't shop, but sandboxed.

People who think the main value of Firestorm is the UX, or "area search" so they can do quests faster than anyone with the SL viewer, or whatever they like about it (perhaps: dresses?) are largely unconscious of the search mangle and how the search they actually use is still there for them to use. 

FS is the third-party viewer that emerged from the discredited Phoenix Viewer, and after various "hard talks" with the Lindens resulted in the FS you see now, a policy on third-party viewers in general, meant to sift out the griefer viewers, and yet...there is the continued existence of griefer and copyright thieving viewers based on FS because: science. Open source is as open source does. The Lindens could stop this but chose not to. Ditto FS devs.  

I think in the annals of Silicon Valley, there are few cases (maybe more, I don't know), where the creators of a product or platform deliberately maim and harm their own product, making it not work, refuse to admit that they have done this, call in teams of Google and other experts, and keep mangling it, and then enable third parties to create an ad-on to their product which most users then select to use because it works way better.

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:53 PM, Love Zhaoying said:

I am confused by the question.

Is it rhetorical? 

If people used their theoretical bonus land (most people have no bonus land) to buy microparcels, then the OP wouldn't be able to buy the unused microparcels and complain about not being able to sell them.

Is it a circular Peeve?

Is it an ouroboros question? 

I could point out that you can't buy a 4096 and then group your land and buy microparcels to add to your primmage because the microparcels are for sale for 156L per meter.

Not 1L per meter.

156 per meter.

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I could point out that you can't buy a 4096 and then group your land and buy microparcels to add to your primmage because the microparcels are for sale for 156L per meter.

Not 1L per meter.

156 per meter.

Understood.  However, my question is because the OP "supports use of microparcels", but is asking "why there are any microparcels" (as if they should not exist).

Perhaps I have a reading comprehension issue, and the OP is really asking "why are there AVAILABLE microparcels", as if they should be so popular as to not exist.  If so, then your reply may answer the question: they are more expensive (if I understand your reply, and am not once again a victim of poor comprehension).

 

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You're forgetting our glorious past, Comrade.

Back in the day, at least through 2004 if not latter, when you abandoned a parcel, it INSTANTLY, without you doing anything, disintegrated into 16m parcels all on its own, each for sale for $1/m.

I'll never forget getting some First Land, and all excited as a newbie about building my little cabin and placing a little tree on this 512 parcel available only to avatars of a certain young age (a program since discontinued), and I clicked on the wrong button, and all of a sudden vultures came and began to eat my land.

I couldn't figure out what happened at first, as land bots, which were not only allowed but encouraged as "science," came and began to feast on my land in chunks. I hurriedly tried to buy back my own land, but it was now a checkerboard.

[…]

If an abandoned parcel literally "disintegrated into 16m parcels all on its own", I'm not forgetting it, I never knew about it!

I guess it could be before my time. I joined (and got First Land) in 2006, adfarming was already a huge problem, and I joined Arbor soon after I realized what was behind the hideous "Mr Lee's Hong Kong" tower next to the road—next to all the roads.

But you're saying an abandoned parcel not only went up for sale at L$1/m² but also split into 16s automatically? I always thought the landsplitting was done by whichever adfarmer whose landbot was first to feed on the carcass.

(I'm reading this too literally, right? Right?)

[Extrude Ragu]

I specifically avoided buying a parcel that was a few meters over 512 because of the tier system. Get rid of this and people will stop abandoning those tiny pieces of land

[BilliJo Aldrin]

12 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I could point out that you can't buy a 4096 and then group your land and buy microparcels to add to your primmage because the microparcels are for sale for 156L per meter.

Not 1L per meter.

156 per meter.

I was talking about abandoned micro parcels Prkovfy, and you know that.

They are every where you look.

AND they are safe from being purchased by flippers, because LL WON"T sell you a microparcel if you don't own land on the sim already.

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by BilliJo Aldrin
spelling

[BilliJo Aldrin]

7 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I specifically avoided buying a parcel that was a few meters over 512 because of the tier system. Get rid of this and people will stop abandoning those tiny pieces of land

Why not contact the seller, ask him to shave off the extra sqm to bring it to 512, and sell you the 512 for his full asking price. You get your land, he gets his money, everyone is happy. If he doesn't want that micro parcel cluttering his land inventory, he can list it super cheep.

If its cheep enough, I'll find it in a day or two and buy it from him, then relist it for double. 😂

[BilliJo Aldrin]

11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Let's be more precise here, Comrade.

When Oz Linden (May his memory be a blessing) ruled that 1.23 had to die, and SL version 2.0 had to come into being, the Lindens destroyed search.

 

The worst thing LL ever did for client retention was abandon SL 1.23 for all the abominations that came after.

The first thing I do if i ever try to offer a noob help, is to tell them, ditch that horrible SL viewer, download firestorm, choose "phoenix Layout" and log back in. They will be so glad they did.

Thank God for 3rd party viewers that still are loosely based on the SL 1.23 layout

Edited December 9, 2023 by BilliJo Aldrin
changed he to a gender inclusive pronoun

[BilliJo Aldrin]

19 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You're forgetting our glorious past, Comrade.

Back in the day, at least through 2004 if not latter, when you abandoned a parcel, it INSTANTLY, without you doing anything, disintegrated into 16m parcels all on its own, each for sale for $1/m.

I'll never forget getting some First Land, and all excited as a newbie about building my little cabin and placing a little tree on this 512 parcel available only to avatars of a certain young age (a program since discontinued), and I clicked on the wrong button, and all of a sudden vultures came and began to eat my land.

I couldn't figure out what happened at first, as land bots, which were not only allowed but encouraged as "science," came and began to feast on my land in chunks. I hurriedly tried to buy back my own land, but it was now a checkerboard.

 

OMG that's too funny Prokovy. I'm trying to type thru the tears, and trying not cough up a lung. 😂

... checkerboard...

Edited December 9, 2023 by BilliJo Aldrin
fixed stuff, added stuff

[BilliJo Aldrin]

so ty to  Prokovy Neva for making us aware of the glorious tradition of creating buying and selling micro parcels. This isnt some nefarious scheme by immoral land flippers, this was the original concept by LL. While I would never cut a large parcel into 16’s I feel like I am taking part in a long and hallowed tradition of micro parcel land flipping.

😂

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:02 PM, Qie Niangao said:

If an abandoned parcel literally "disintegrated into 16m parcels all on its own", I'm not forgetting it, I never knew about it!

I guess it could be before my time. I joined (and got First Land) in 2006, adfarming was already a huge problem, and I joined Arbor soon after I realized what was behind the hideous "Mr Lee's Hong Kong" tower next to the road—next to all the roads.

But you're saying an abandoned parcel not only went up for sale at L$1/m² but also split into 16s automatically? I always thought the landsplitting was done by whichever adfarmer whose landbot was first to feed on the carcass.

(I'm reading this too literally, right? Right?)

No, it literally disintegrated into 16m parcels. It was the damnedest thing. Because: see above -- Philip thought it would be a great way to collectively ensure a few extra prims to people.

At some point they listened to people's howls and stopped it.

This was before Mr. Lee's Hong Kong appeared, but he definitely then made hay with it. I used to interact with him quite a bit, especially when he would pop up in the middle of prime waterfront.

Of course the landbot owners also did splitting, but the original splitting was an automatic process.