Land Sales Crash

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Not one single person I know who is premium has any interest whatsoever with owning any mainland. 

* raises paw * Me! 

I know a few other Forum users are supposebly my neighbors too (but don't know if they rent or own).

I suppose I should fess-up that I own Mainland in a region where Love also has land. To be fair, though, that particular region is rather exceptional, and not only for being double-prim.

But I mean, it's not as if they're rare, premium members interested in owning Mainland. There's a whole Mainland full of landowners, after all, even if not every square meter of Mainland is resident-owned.

Perhaps the interest among premium members in owning Mainland was more common before Linden Homes were a thing, and certainly much earlier when First Land was still a thing.

Edited January 16 by Qie Niangao

[Rowan Amore]

17 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I suppose I should fess-up that I own Mainland in a region where Love also has land. To be fair, though, that particular region is rather exceptional, and not only for being double-prim.

But I mean, it's not as if they're rare, premium members interested in owning Mainland. There's a whole Mainland full of landowners, after all, even if not every square meter of Mainland is resident-owned.

Perhaps the interest among premium members in owning Mainland was more common before Linden Homes were a thing, and certainly much earlier when First Land was still a thing.

Seems there are quite a bit more interested in Private Estates.  Whether those people are premium or not is anyone's guess.

Second Life Main Grid size as of 14 Jan 2024

Ownership	Total	General	Moderate	Adult	Offline	Total Area (km�)
Total	27816	2522	17285	7986	23	1822.95
Linden Owned	9651	1578	7664	409	0	632.49
Private Estates	18165	944	9621	7577	23	1190.46

[Love Zhaoying]

35 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I suppose I should fess-up that I own Mainland in a region where Love also has land. To be fair, though, that particular region is rather exceptional, and not only for being double-prim.

Thanks! I think there was 1 other who has land nearby, also (sorry I forgot that you were one).

[Qie Niangao]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Seems there are quite a bit more interested in Private Estates.  Whether those people are premium or not is anyone's guess.

Oh for sure, that's one of the reasons I have little patience for the argument that all of Mainland must offer non-Belli LSL "privacy" functions and whitelist banlines: plenty of space on Estates for that, and plenty of us own/rent on both.

Personally, I guess I'd keep one premium account even if it weren't needed for Mainland ownership, as long as it's the only way I could have my own Experience for scripting. Premium is also handy for group membership; I'm pretty used to juggling those among alts at this point, but if only Premiums can pay Mainland tier, it can use up some groups to give each Mainland tenant their own rental group.

[Love Zhaoying]

17 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Seems there are quite a bit more interested in Private Estates.  Whether those people are premium or not is anyone's guess.

Second Life Main Grid size as of 14 Jan 2024

Ownership	Total	General	Moderate	Adult	Offline	Total Area (km�)
Total	27816	2522	17285	7986	23	1822.95
Linden Owned	9651	1578	7664	409	0	632.49
Private Estates	18165	944	9621	7577	23	1190.46

I think one way to interpret that is, the whole "supply / demand" equation: If people really "wanted" more LL land, then probably it would get built (but now we have Belli). (Assuming Belli counts in the "Linden Owned" land above? I guess not, if it's not considered "mainland".)

Plus, perhaps Private Estates are more profitable for LL - since for Private Regions users pay a few to buy, then recurring $$ to use vs. for LL land, just "Premium" for mainland ownership + any extra tier fees.  If that is true, LL has motivating reasons to sell more Private Regions than building more Linden Land.  (Yet, Belli keeps expanding..)

It is indeed confusing information above: Where does "normal user-owned mainland" fit in? Is that "Linden Owned"? Where does Belli (and legacy Linden Homes) fit in - is it also "Linden Owned"?

 

 

[Gabriele Graves]

3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh for sure, that's one of the reasons I have little patience for the argument that all of Mainland must offer non-Belli LSL "privacy" functions and whitelist banlines: plenty of space on Estates for that, and plenty of us own/rent on both.

So funny how you are trying to re-characterize these things to make them sound different from the reality which is they are standard mainland region functions and features and have always been, at least, as far back as I've been here.

I personally have little patience for the argument that these things shouldn't be available to all who pay for and use mainland.

Luckily for both of us, our patience doesn't mean squat to anyone but ourselves.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

16 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

So funny how you are trying to re-characterize these things to make them sound different from the reality which is they are standard mainland region functions and features and have always been, at least, as far back as I've been here.

I personally have little patience for the argument that these things shouldn't be available to all who pay for and use mainland.

Luckily for both of us, our patience doesn't mean squat to anyone but ourselves.

I cant understand all the people that whine about ban lines. Its private property, they dont want trespassers, they need to just suck it up and stay on the road. 

[Qie Niangao]

40 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

So funny how you are trying to re-characterize these things to make them sound different from the reality which is they are standard mainland region functions and features and have always been, at least, as far back as I've been here.

Right, that was the mistake, long ago, as I've said all along.

And it's not that I'm bothered about personally crashing into somebody's lame banlines, it's that those lame banlines are getting in the way of other users exploring Mainland—including land scattered around the railways that I pay for.

Yeah, it's been this way for a long time—and SL new user retention has always been pathetic. There are plenty of reasons for that but Mainland banlines and orbs sure don't help.

It's absolutely true that people have paid for the right to use those things. That should never have been possible, it takes the Real Estate roleplay analogy to a stupidly counterproductive place, but it's too late now for old, failing Mainland.

But I've expressed all that before this thread. What emerged in this thread is that there are some who would insist on blocking even potentially invisible, unseeing, non-interacting "neutrino" avatars passing through. One might think SL "land" is the only "property" these folks have ever owned.

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Qie Niangao said:

Right, that was the mistake, long ago, as I've said all along.

That's one opinion only, not fact.  It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it.

2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But I've expressed all that before this thread. What emerged in this thread is that there are some who would insist on blocking even potentially invisible, unseeing, non-interacting "neutrino" avatars passing through. One might think SL "land" is the only "property" these folks have ever owned.

It doesn't matter what you or I think of that, the rules allow it.  Those who cannot be tolerant of the choices of others who are not breaking any rules should seek other places to play that don't trigger them and that's that.

I say this as a person who has never operated white-listed banlines or orbs and has kept my mainland parcels open.

[Qie Niangao]

Rules can need changing, but more importantly, we mustn't repeat stupid mistakes. On the plus side, with the success of Bellisseria, the Lindens must have learned this lesson.

(In retrospect, though, I was going to edit out the "One might think…" sentence because it might not be as hypothetical as I meant it, and that would be unintentionally hurtful. But now that it's quoted… sorry for any offense that may have caused.)

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Rules can need changing, but more importantly, we mustn't repeat stupid mistakes. On the plus side, with the success of Bellisseria, the Lindens must have learned this lesson.

Sure, absolutely rules sometimes need changing.  It's "repeating stupid mistakes" that the issue here, the only people in a position to truly know that is LL themselves, not us.  It's perfectly possible that without those "mistakes" SL wouldn't exist today.  It's perfectly possible that other things are in fact mistakes and should have been addressed too.  There's plenty of things to choose from.

It's all very subjective and it's very arrogant to think that anyone of us residents "absolutely without a shadow of any doubt, knows what the problem is and how to fix it."

It's perfectly possible that mainland is very lucrative compared to costs and nobody wants to do anything about it at LL.  They clearly already assessed a need for an alternative for mainland/estates and Belli is what they came up with.  Given how it's played out I expect that this has turned out very lucrative.  Maybe LL are perfectly happy with the state of things if money is rolling in.

Belli is their showcase, it gives them something to show the world to entice new and existing residents to a nice safe neighbourhood in the burbs with a lower support burden.  They couldn't showcase mainland because of it's many issues not least of which is it's aging historical builds that would look like crap to outsiders.  Sure, we love them but that's because it's also part of our history but not to new people.  So with Belli now they can ignore that mostly.

Perhaps they don't see any financial benefit for a Tween Belli/Mainland product, there's only so many ways to slice and dice a product line before it gets confusing and financially worthless.  On top of that, they did say when Belli was announced that they were finished printing mainland regions.  That seemed categorical to me and they haven't since.  Belli is not mainland (in case anyone is mistaken).

There are a good number of different products for customers to choose from.  If mainland empties out, so be it, perhaps they'll deal with it then, or not.  If it empties out then banlines and orbs will start to vanish.  Surely this has already started to happen, right?  If there's already less mainland residents, right?  So the perceived problems will solve themselves out. Hurrah!

I'm not convinced there is some kind of huge crisis from LL's perspective, perhaps there is for mainland rental agents and resellers, sure, I can believe that but LL may not really care about that if their strategy is to promote subscriptions to individuals instead and leave land resell to the estates only.  This might be all part of their long term strategy already.

Only they know what makes sense for them, not us.

Edited January 16 by Gabriele Graves

[Arielle Popstar]

On 1/15/2024 at 6:00 PM, Rowan Amore said:

The burden of proof in my state is not on the person IN the home but the person entering unlawfully.  I don't have to prove I was in danger.  They have to prove they weren't a threat.  At least in SL, since we're comparing it to RL laws and such, you just get bounced off a barrier and not shot and killed.   See how RL and SL comparisons are kind of pointless which was MY point.

If only we would get bounced off a barrier or ban line rather than unceremoniously teleported home. I'd be much more likely to try touring through SL again rather than just going to Opensim and doing my touring there. Some parcels do seem to have the ability so I am a bit flummoxed as to why the need for 0 second orbs of the obsessive privacy trolls other then the fun they seem to get out of watching innocent travellers get trounced off the land they been sucked into paying the Lab a lifetime rental fee on. They don't seem to get they don't "own" the land because SL can pull the plug at any time and they are subjected to any rules and regulations the lab might institute in the future.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Sure, absolutely rules sometimes need changing.  It's "repeating stupid mistakes" that the issue here, the only people in a position to truly know that is LL themselves, not us.  It's perfectly possible that without those "mistakes" SL wouldn't exist today.  It's perfectly possible that other things are in fact mistakes and should have been addressed too.  There's plenty of things to choose from.

It's all very subjective and it's very arrogant to think that anyone of us residents "absolutely without a shadow of any doubt, knows what the problem is and how to fix it."

It's perfectly possible that mainland is very lucrative compared to costs and nobody wants to do anything about it at LL.  They clearly already assessed a need for an alternative for mainland/estates and Belli is what they came up with.  Given how it's played out I expect that this has turned out very lucrative.  Maybe LL are perfectly happy with the state of things if money is rolling in.

Belli is their showcase, it gives them something to show the world to entice new and existing residents to a nice safe neighbourhood in the burbs with a lower support burden.  They couldn't showcase mainland because of it's many issues not least of which is it's aging historical builds that would look like crap to outsiders.  Sure, we love them but that's because it's also part of our history but not to new people.  So with Belli now they can ignore that mostly.

Perhaps they don't see any financial benefit for a Tween Belli/Mainland product, there's only so many ways to slice and dice a product line before it gets confusing and financially worthless.  On top of that, they did say when Belli was announced that they were finished printing mainland regions.  That seemed categorical to me and they haven't since.  Belli is not mainland (in case anyone is mistaken).

There are a good number of different products for customers to choose from.  If mainland empties out, so be it, perhaps they'll deal with it then, or not.  If it empties out then banlines and orbs will start to vanish.  Surely this has already started to happen, right?  If there's already less mainland residents, right?  So the perceived problems will solve themselves out. Hurrah!

I'm not convinced there is some kind of huge crisis from LL's perspective, perhaps there is for mainland rental agents and resellers, sure, I can believe that but LL may not really care about that if their strategy is to promote subscriptions to individuals instead and leave land resell to the estates only.  This might be all part of their long term strategy already.

Only they know what makes sense for them, not us.

I'd say from having watched the Lab over the years that the Lindens as a whole are the last to know what is needed here and that after 20 years, it is because the residents keep this place going and that the Lab's longevity is in spite of its efforts, not because of them. Had they actually made good decisions, I have no doubt SL would be 10 times as big as it is today.

[Gabriele Graves]

14 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I'd say from having watched the Lab over the years that the Lindens as a whole are the last to know what is needed here and that after 20 years, it is because the residents keep this place going and that the Lab's longevity is in spite of its efforts, not because of them. Had they actually made good decisions, I have no doubt SL would be 10 times as big as it is today.

Yes, we hear this a lot from people who've never had to step up and take that responsibility.  If people are so sure, apply for the job and steer the ship.  LL are the only ones with the current figures and the detailed historical information about what worked and what didn't.  Anyone who thinks they know better cannot possible *do* better without the data to back it up.

Edited January 17 by Gabriele Graves

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

Yes, we here this a lot from people who've never had to step up and take that responsibility.  If people are so sure, apply for the job and steer the ship.  LL are the only ones with the current figures and the detailed historical information about what worked and what didn't.  Anyone who thinks they know better cannot possible *do* better without the data to back it up.

One can have the data but not interpret it properly as is often the case.

[Gabriele Graves]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

One can have the data but not interpret it properly as is often the case.

If you don't have the data all you have is wild, rampant speculation and Ooo looky here at what we have a lot of on the forums...

Edited January 17 by Gabriele Graves

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If you don't have the data all you have is wild, rampant speculation and Ooo and looky here and what we have a lot of on the forums...

Sure and I also spend too much time inworld and talk to others about their likes and dislikes about SL. I know from years of being here the learning curve is way harder then it needs to be and from many friends in IMVU and other places it is the number one reason they couldn't cut it here. Also have many friends in Opensim who have shared why they left here.

SL undoubtedly has that data but has failed to act on it choosing instead to continue on with policies and features that they like but not the residents.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Sure and I also spend too much time inworld and talk to others about their likes and dislikes about SL. I know from years of being here the learning curve is way harder then it needs to be and from many friends in IMVU and other places it is the number one reason they couldn't cut it here. Also have many friends in Opensim who have shared why they left here.

SL undoubtedly has that data but has failed to act on it choosing instead to continue on with policies and features that they like but not the residents.

That's all anecdotal information at the end of the day unless you have a proper study to present.

If it's one thing I've learned is companies do whatever they think will bring them in the most money.  That doesn't always line up with what every customer wants as long as it fits with what enough people want.  They will always follow the money.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

10 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I have little patience for the argument that all of Mainland must offer non-Belli LSL "privacy" functions and whitelist banlines: plenty of space on Estates for that, and plenty of us own/rent on both.

I have little patience for the idea that Premium subscribers can only use their tier free allowance for "public spaces" on mainland, and that if they want some privacy to relax or work on some SL project of theirs, they must pay extra to hide on an estate region so "invisible neutrino anti-privacy griefer people" don't have to close their eyes.

 

8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

it's not that I'm bothered about personally crashing into somebody's lame banlines, it's that those lame banlines are getting in the way of other users exploring Mainland

You mean "exploring" ther bits of mainland OWNED BY OTHER PEOPLE, that they don't want invaded by random strangers. Why should self-important a-holes who call them selves "explorers" have more rights on land others are paying for than the people who are paying for that land?

Answer, they should not.

 

8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

around the railways that I pay for

So because you "pay for the railways", you feel you should have some control there.

I pay for a parcel, I have control there, but you think I shouldn't.

You want the rules changed so YOU control what YOU pay for, and so YOU control what I pay for.

That is blatant hypocrisy.

 

8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

What emerged in this thread is that there are some who would insist on blocking even potentially invisible, unseeing, non-interacting "neutrino" avatars passing through

The Official LL "Behind Closed Doors" policy clearly states that it is the property owners obligation to ensure that random people, even invisible neutrino people, DO NOT enter parcels with A-rated furniture on M-Rated land.

This is NOT optional, this is an official requirement. And yet YOU are demanding that mainlanders be FORCED to violate that requirement, because YOU think you should have a right to "explore" my home.

Put simply, you want ME to be forced to violate the LL ToS, and get banned because YOU are over-entitled.

The answer is no.

 

8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

One might think SL "land" is the only "property" these folks have ever owned.

And more gratuitous insults. Reported.

 

8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

would be unintentionally hurtful. But now that it's quoted… sorry for any offense that may have caused

You apologise by doubling down on the insult?

Not accepted. Reported.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

If only we would get bounced off a barrier or ban line rather than unceremoniously teleported home.

Blqme the idiots who thought ban-lines should only go to 50m above ground. So people installed orbs to eject. But the over-entitled anti-privacy griefers would come right back in, so punt kicking became an option.

 

If one is added by name to the parcel black list, the ban-lines go all the way up to about 5k.

All ban-lines should extend to 5k.Then home owners wouldn't NEED an orb to punt kick the home invading anti-privacy griefer trash.

Problem solved.

 

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

They don't seem to get they don't "own" the land because SL can pull the plug at any time

If I rent an apartment in RL, I don't "own it", but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have locks on the doors and windows to keep out robbers, r*pists, serial killers, door to door sales people, missionaries and other unwelcome trash.

If I rent a house, it doesn't mean I can't have a fence around it likewise.

Claiming people can't have privacy in their home because it's "rented" is total BS.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

So, some conclusions from reading this thread.. almost no one goes premium to buy mainland, mainland is almost entirely dead and will soon be totally dead, because everyone hates it. No one should be allowed to keep people off of their property, that should only be allowed on estates, and magical nutrino avatars should be allowed to pass thru your house undisturbed and unimpeded.

And the reason no one should be allowed to keep people off their land is because its not their land anyway and what happens if LL decides to pull the plug.

Oh and by the way I've never been there, but IMVU totally sucks, its a joke compared to Second Life. All other virtual worlds are compared to this one.

But re LL pulling the plug.... I'm gonna start a new thread in the general forum on that one. See you all over there.

 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

If I rent an apartment in RL, I don't "own it", but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have locks on the doors and windows to keep out robbers, r*pists, serial killers, door to door sales people, missionaries and other unwelcome trash.

If I rent a house, it doesn't mean I can't have a fence around it likewise.

Can you shoot down airplanes?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Can you shoot down airplanes?

No one is actually shooting down airplanes in SL, but it sounds like fun. If it  WAS possible to do that,  i’d put an anti aircraft battery on my roof and then the zombies could get them when the pilot parachuted to the ground . 😂

Edited January 17 by BilliJo Aldrin
changed words, added words

[Qie Niangao]

We can't see the Lab's data, but we can see what the Lab did in response to the data, and how well that response is succeeding. It would be willful denial not to recognize what it means. Surprise, surprise: Alienation as extreme sport isn't such a growth market. Belli is.

12 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There are a good number of different products for customers to choose from.  If mainland empties out, so be it, perhaps they'll deal with it then, or not.  If it empties out then banlines and orbs will start to vanish.  Surely this has already started to happen, right?  If there's already less mainland residents, right?  So the perceived problems will solve themselves out. Hurrah!

As more Mainlanders pull up stakes and move to expanding Belli, it selects for the banline and orb afficionados who can't go to Belli and won't move to an Estate. There's bound to be a tipping point where nobody else wants their content on what remains and leave behind a wasted Mainland of razor-wire banline outposts with snarling llTeleportHome guard dogs, scattered across the abandoned rubble.

Granted, that won't inconvenience the banline brigade in the slightest. Once Mainland is nothing but banlines, they'll have won. And happiest for them: none o' them pesky newbies around, ever.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Can you shoot down airplanes?

This latest pathetic argument of yours was tried before too, it failed too.

 

RL: II can't shoot down an airplane above my home. BUT...

The Civil Aviation Authority CAN revoke the pilot's licence of any jerk who cruises over peoples homes BELOW the minimum legal overflight height specified for the area.

 

In SL, the overflight height for blacklisted privacy hating airborne griefer trash is 5km.

 

 

Edited January 17 by Zalificent Corvinus