Ineffective Altruism

[BJoyful]

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think by the nature of "true altruism" - it ultimately doesn't (or hopefully shouldn't) matter to the "benefactor" if a project is successful or not.  Of course, they want whatever project they "donated" land for to succeed. But by at least one definition of "altruism", "the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others" - the "benefactor" should hopefully be "disinterested and selfless" regarding the outcome and result.

I think this does hold true in many instances.  Art is something which educates, stimulates, expresses our feelings and intentions... it is pure freedom and possibility.  I feel its the most important human creation.  In my case I provided the free space for artists of all calibre, very successful and popular ones such as Inara Pey, Cica, Regi Yifu, Skip Staheli, Blues Rocker, Thomaz Blackburn, Suzen Juel and so many other talented wonders (So many wonderful talented Artists - Please don't feel offended if I missed any of you) and 'stars' in Second Life are asked to exhibit... and they know why... they are established and RL and or SL famous and people will come to see what they offer, which provides an opportunity for new or lesser known artists to exhibit their contributions to more visitors.  All this art, plus regular Events, activities, live musicians and tours all over Second Life are organized and offered by the core members of a Second Life community.  By community I don't refer to a physical location in particular, as the above-mentioned happen all over the grid in the arts community as defined: a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.   Residential proximity to a physical place where a feeling of connection to that artistic community is often desirable, to people who appreciate it.  So, when Campbell Coast provided residential, and commercial rentals at L$1/m2 per LI per week, it wasn't to make buckets of L$ it was to build that feeling of community at a rate which paid just the cost of a particular portion of server cost that tenant used... not to make anyone Lindillionaires (although commercial venture was/is always allowed and encouraged!  All Residents were welcome to buy and sell their own parcels inside that contiguous area, and invited to expand it, hopefully by reclaiming some Abandoned Land... and hopefully continuing to do so, ad infinitum.

So... is this form of exploitation a good thing or a bad thing for Second Life?  Exploiting the arts to encourage the expansion of the arts isn't pure altruism, but it is altruism with good intention and that's what the Corsica South Coast Group does and encourages beautifully.  That is what Campbell Coast did and what I encouraged Land Cutter to do (or at least try).  Land Cutter had some of his own antiquated business practices failed because his good intentions weren't encouraged or supported by a small number of uninformed a$$es (who mostly didn't even own or rent any parcel inside that contiguous community) decided they needed to expose his past business practices and grief-attack his appearances, events (essentially every effort he made to integrate into the community).  He no longer trusted me (a few of those Protestors/griefers were actually my 'Friends') or anyone he suspected of being involved (or controlling an Alt account to do so), got very angry and left, doing his best to look after the few he did trust by offering the land he no longer wanted first to the members of the Group, then to any other interested parties and finally by Abandoning the remainder.  Even the wonderful core members seemed to think it wasn't a good idea for me to contribute tier to any of their group interests, and I understand that completely ♥  When things cooled, I asked my Friend, Cranston Yordstorm, to build a Destination contiguously joined/adjacent to the CSC and he did and recently informed me of a wonderfully successful grid drive of the Drivers of SL group which brought over 250 Residents to the area in a 3 day span to visit Corsica South Coast as shown here:

I understand true altruism vs altruism involving exploitation are different, but if both are done with good intentions (ultimately to encourage anyone and everyone to re-claim some Abandoned Land from Governor Linden) I don't think it should be condemned, no matter how questionable the quality of any build is, its everyone's right and privilege to exercise anywhere on Mainland in Second Life ♥

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, BJoyful said:

I also like Prokofy's builds and style!  Her arts background was a good investment!  I admire that she actually lives in many of the homes she prepares for use as rentals... that shows her of love and dedication to her tenants.  I admire and respect her dedication to being among or considered the oldest rental establishment in Second Life. ♥  

It is her public views, opinions and baseless defamation of others which need updating and rethinking.  I suggest again, perhaps a little break from "insert appropriate noun" here and some happiness counselling so her Second Life experience won't include interfering with the enjoyment of other people in Second Life who may read a Forum post full of her opinionated vituperation?  Maybe a quiet word with someone (IM or face to face meeting inworld) would help to inform Prokofy of some new and updated ideas, or at least an exchange of information between parties involved would better serve Second Life and Mainland before publicly spewing half-truths, verbal bullying, libelous defamation of others.  Such isn't a good way to share information and expect a favourable result, in my opinion.

What sort of example is she providing new Residents and people in Forum (new and existing) about how to effect change, make suggestions or ask questions about Second Life.  I fully believe in the freedom of speech, but not fact-poor ranting about imaginary pending disaster and doom based on an irrelevant past experience.  Memory isn't as trustworthy as we are led to believe.

1. I don't have an "arts background" unless you mean "liberal arts". I have a B.A. degree in Slavic Languages and Literature.

2. Prokofy is "he".

3. I think all landlords should "eat their own dogfood" -- and house creators even more. If the makers of skyboxes in particular would spend one evening in their own skybox with the mesh bouncing off their floors, they'd fix it so I don't have to do so with workarounds.

4. I think perhaps some of your own friends might have a quiet word with you to put you back in touch with reality -- but you may resist it. I report what I see accurately. You're not required to read it. I don't need any "happiness counseling" (what a weird "Brave New World" sort of concept!).  Reporting the facts of SL as you see them and as others agree they *are* doesn't "interfere with the enjoyment of others' SL" because...they aren't required to read the forums and can block people they dislike.

One of the greatest fallacies invoked on social media and forums like this one is that one person expressing their thoughts and reporting what they see somehow "cancels" or "suppresses" a dissenting opinion. Obviously it doesn't.

5. A lot of history has been rewritten here, and the participants in the story with more direct knowledge than I am, aren't talking because a) they don't bother with the forums; b) they don't like getting banned; c) they don't wish to engage in drama.

6. Freedom of speech is not what we have in SL. But complaining about land cutters and ad farmers is legitimate and needed and that can't be white-washed. I'm not aware that any "doom" has been foretold in my posts.

PS Useful to compare and contrast old threads on this topic with different histories.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But complaining about land cutters and ad farmers is legitimate and needed and that can't be white-washed.

Thank you!

[Prokofy Neva]

28 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

I think this does hold true in many instances.  Art is something which educates, stimulates, expresses our feelings and intentions... it is pure freedom and possibility.  I feel its the most important human creation.  In my case I provided the free space for artists of all calibre, very successful and popular ones such as Inara Pey, Cica, Regi Yifu, Skip Staheli, Blues Rocker, Thomaz Blackburn, Suzen Juel and so many other talented wonders (So many wonderful talented Artists - Please don't feel offended if I missed any of you) and 'stars' in Second Life are asked to exhibit... and they know why... they are established and RL and or SL famous and people will come to see what they offer, which provides an opportunity for new or lesser known artists to exhibit their contributions to more visitors.  All this art, plus regular Events, activities, live musicians and tours all over Second Life are organized and offered by the core members of a Second Life community.  By community I don't refer to a physical location in particular, as the above-mentioned happen all over the grid in the arts community as defined: a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.   Residential proximity to a physical place where a feeling of connection to that artistic community is often desirable, to people who appreciate it.  So, when Campbell Coast provided residential, and commercial rentals at L$1/m2 per LI per week, it wasn't to make buckets of L$ it was to build that feeling of community at a rate which paid just the cost of a particular portion of server cost that tenant used... not to make anyone Lindillionaires (although commercial venture was/is always allowed and encouraged!  All Residents were welcome to buy and sell their own parcels inside that contiguous area, and invited to expand it, hopefully by reclaiming some Abandoned Land... and hopefully continuing to do so, ad infinitum.

So... is this form of exploitation a good thing or a bad thing for Second Life?  Exploiting the arts to encourage the expansion of the arts isn't pure altruism, but it is altruism with good intention and that's what the Corsica South Coast Group does and encourages beautifully.  That is what Campbell Coast did and what I encouraged Land Cutter to do (or at least try).  Land Cutter had some of his own antiquated business practices failed because his good intentions weren't encouraged or supported by a small number of uninformed a$$es (who mostly didn't even own or rent any parcel inside that contiguous community) decided they needed to expose his past business practices and grief-attack his appearances, events (essentially every effort he made to integrate into the community).  He no longer trusted me (a few of those Protestors/griefers were actually my 'Friends') or anyone he suspected of being involved (or controlling an Alt account to do so), got very angry and left, doing his best to look after the few he did trust by offering the land he no longer wanted first to the members of the Group, then to any other interested parties and finally by Abandoning the remainder.  Even the wonderful core members seemed to think it wasn't a good idea for me to contribute tier to any of their group interests, and I understand that completely ♥  When things cooled, I asked my Friend, Cranston Yordstorm, to build a Destination contiguously joined/adjacent to the CSC and he did and recently informed me of a wonderfully successful grid drive of the Drivers of SL group which brought over 250 Residents to the area in a 3 day span to visit Corsica South Coast as shown here:

I understand true altruism vs altruism involving exploitation are different, but if both are done with good intentions (ultimately to encourage anyone and everyone to re-claim some Abandoned Land from Governor Linden) I don't think it should be condemned, no matter how questionable the quality of any build is, its everyone's right and privilege to exercise anywhere on Mainland in Second Life ♥

PS I think given this tangled and tortured account, I'm not the main problem in the "interference of the enjoyment of your SL". I think others even closer to the action didn't wish to believe in the folie a deux, either.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

37 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

I think this does hold true in many instances.  Art is something which educates, stimulates, expresses our feelings and intentions... it is pure freedom and possibility.  I feel its the most important human creation.  In my case I provided the free space for artists of all calibre, very successful and popular ones such as Inara Pey, Cica, Regi Yifu, Skip Staheli, Blues Rocker, Thomaz Blackburn, Suzen Juel and so many other talented wonders (So many wonderful talented Artists - Please don't feel offended if I missed any of you) and 'stars' in Second Life are asked to exhibit... and they know why... they are established and RL and or SL famous and people will come to see what they offer, which provides an opportunity for new or lesser known artists to exhibit their contributions to more visitors.  All this art, plus regular Events, activities, live musicians and tours all over Second Life are organized and offered by the core members of a Second Life community.  By community I don't refer to a physical location in particular, as the above-mentioned happen all over the grid in the arts community as defined: a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.   Residential proximity to a physical place where a feeling of connection to that artistic community is often desirable, to people who appreciate it.  So, when Campbell Coast provided residential, and commercial rentals at L$1/m2 per LI per week, it wasn't to make buckets of L$ it was to build that feeling of community at a rate which paid just the cost of a particular portion of server cost that tenant used... not to make anyone Lindillionaires (although commercial venture was/is always allowed and encouraged!  All Residents were welcome to buy and sell their own parcels inside that contiguous area, and invited to expand it, hopefully by reclaiming some Abandoned Land... and hopefully continuing to do so, ad infinitum.

So... is this form of exploitation a good thing or a bad thing for Second Life?  Exploiting the arts to encourage the expansion of the arts isn't pure altruism, but it is altruism with good intention and that's what the Corsica South Coast Group does and encourages beautifully.  That is what Campbell Coast did and what I encouraged Land Cutter to do (or at least try).  Land Cutter had some of his own antiquated business practices failed because his good intentions weren't encouraged or supported by a small number of uninformed a$$es (who mostly didn't even own or rent any parcel inside that contiguous community) decided they needed to expose his past business practices and grief-attack his appearances, events (essentially every effort he made to integrate into the community).  He no longer trusted me (a few of those Protestors/griefers were actually my 'Friends') or anyone he suspected of being involved (or controlling an Alt account to do so), got very angry and left, doing his best to look after the few he did trust by offering the land he no longer wanted first to the members of the Group, then to any other interested parties and finally by Abandoning the remainder.  Even the wonderful core members seemed to think it wasn't a good idea for me to contribute tier to any of their group interests, and I understand that completely ♥  When things cooled, I asked my Friend, Cranston Yordstorm, to build a Destination contiguously joined/adjacent to the CSC and he did and recently informed me of a wonderfully successful grid drive of the Drivers of SL group which brought over 250 Residents to the area in a 3 day span to visit Corsica South Coast as shown here:

I understand true altruism vs altruism involving exploitation are different, but if both are done with good intentions (ultimately to encourage anyone and everyone to re-claim some Abandoned Land from Governor Linden) I don't think it should be condemned, no matter how questionable the quality of any build is, its everyone's right and privilege to exercise anywhere on Mainland in Second Life ♥

This post is an example of "naming and shaming".

[BJoyful]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

This post is an example of "naming and shaming".

I understand.  It doesn't feel good and such practice has no place in a Public Forum.  I wholeheartedly endorse having such practice removed the Forum ♥ (and from everywhere, RL and SL)  It has no benefit to the enjoyment of anyone ♥)

Edited November 9, 2023 by BJoyful
afterthought

[rasterscan]

10 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

The arrogant, ignorant people who are so in love with the tedious, mind numbing suburban hell that is Belli, that they insist on trying to convert Mainland into a loss making 5th rate clone of said hell.

Ouch.

[Prokofy Neva]

There are lots of people, myself included, who think they are helping the community by creating a park or an activity. And they don't get used because...guess what, people don't need you to do that for them. For 1024L they can buy some abandoned land on their $11.99 premium account, and if it bets blighted, move to Bellisseria, to a new treehouse for example, and if they tire of that, back to the Mainland. It's a buyers' market. As long as you keep it clear in your mind that land purchase is an expense, a loss, a cost center, and not an "investment" you'll do fine. You don't spend $12 on a movie these days and wonder if you can re-sell your experience of the movie! You don't get a brunch special for $13.05 (the cost of a premium with tax in NYS) and say, let me re-sell that! The same with SL land.

Love Z. made the point that people providing open spaces or waterways or parks are doing so for some mercenary motive they cloak under altruism. I have never done any cloaking. Since the very first day I opened my flagship sim, I put 10k m2 open space in it so it wouldn't seem crowded like so many other places and would encourage people to buy or rent the land. It's more or less still there today with KittyCats and refreshments and a pond. I think it almost never gets used, except by me and a tenant who also adores kitties. But it's there to dilute the view. I've always said I want the rentals to pay for the land preserve.

In the last few years, I've noticed the emergence of what I call the industrialized Nature movement. This was personified by NatureCon, which featured...urban sims and transportation, with a laggy train running through it and booths for drivers' groups. So "Nature" is something like Eisenhower's idea of creating a system of national parks and the roads to get to them, encouraging people to buy gas-guzzling cars, promote domestic industry, and the drive to a place surrounded with all kinds of expensive gear that blocks out Nature. This is a very American and modern phenomenon.

With industrialized Nature, you get the blessing of mass transportation games, bus and car tours, walks where the rangers outnumber the visitors, Nature sims where the quests and content for sale drown out the actual natural vistas, etc. It's fine, people can do what they want, they need to make tier, if that works for them -- and judging by the group members and activities, it does -- why not? I don't view people implementing a philosophy different than mine as somehow a hindrance to me -- you can do what you want on your land under the TOS. That doesn't mean I can't criticize it in public debate. Hell, no.

I just observe that along the way, other groups  got killed off or folded and pushed out of business. Not mine, because I'm in a parallel universe completely. I was already in a process stretching back years where I was gradually downsizing my Land Preserve or converting at least the edges of it to rentals to get the tier paid -- or selling it off. I've accelerated that process more these days as I notice that with industrialized Nature and Bellisseria Nature, such as it is, I have less visitors to all but the perennial favourites, most of which are religious in nature. So I have upgraded some areas to mesh and dumped others. After all, this is mainly about pleasing myself, making places *I* find comfortable and which I calculate *others* will as well (not everyone wants a driving vacation; most people sit on one sim and sit in IMs while logged on to SL). It has to pay for itself!

To cite another "ineffective altruism" story I really had a chuckle over: there was a little Mainland island where I used to supply a treasure chest and I would replenish it every few months, it had both copyable freebies and no-copy gatchas including some really nice ones. I noticed that people stopped coming to it in the last year WHEN I put it in search/places. Before, they would find it if they had the patience to go down the whole list of locations in the preserve. So I doubled down, put out new gatchas, kept it in search. Still nothing. Finally I decided to divide it in two, and make half of it a rental rather than selling it. And THAT"S WHEN I noticed the description on the parcel I hadn't focused on before: "New Content August 2015". ROFL. OF COURSE no one is going to come to a place they've found by hunting for "treasure" if it says "AUGUST 2015". It might as well have the title of Solzhenitsyn's novel.

On another large venue built around an infohub, the comments on the bulletin board have been like "Man, this place is prims!" or "This place looks like the 1990s!" The funny thing is, as I begin trying to replace prim buildings with similar mesh shacks, I find the mesh houses are double and triple the land impact of the original rather elegant and nicely textured shacks. So that's not on, and I'll have to decide whether to merely meshify some of the old shacks or buy expensive new ones with less impact or rent out more land to cover the tier. 

In yet another place, where one visitor said acerbically that it "looks like a Texas fish camp" (not a compliment, I guess), I have rented out the sky and put less fairy and elf stuff on the ground.  There's already enough fairy and elf stuff in SL.

I think basically, if you are going to get in the altruism business, you either have to be independently wealthy (I'm not) or have a notion to please yourself and cover your costs on the way to pleasing others, or else just not care. I probably wouldn't have so many different kinds of religious sites if I hadn't realized that people really want, need, and love such places and come to them and tip well. Also horse-riding and boat-riding are in demand. Now that the Lindens have put in treehouses to Bellisseria, anybody in the tree-house business will have to get out it. But I'll keep mine built by Foolish Frost, who long since left SL for greener pastures, because I like the feel of it -- even as I get a Linden treehouse as well which I probably won't keep but will have fun with for a time.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[BJoyful]

19 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

  21 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But complaining about land cutters and ad farmers is legitimate and needed and that can't be white-washed.

Perhaps those complaints should be addressed to the Lab, where Governance can actually do something about them, each occurrence specifically.  General complaining does nothing except encourage more whinging.  Provide a solution which can be acted upon publicly and save naming to an AR or a support ticket.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Belii for Bellicosians, Mainland for Mainlanders, and a BRAND NEW continent, "GuaranteedToFailLand" for the holier-than-thou altruists to experiment with their ill informed and/or ill intentioned social engineering projects.

 

And another patronising condescending gratuitous personal attack. Do feel free to take your "suggestions" elsewhere.

"Bellicosia" is one of your more brilliant neologisms as it sums up that angry, defensive stance that so many of the group leaders and resident government RPers assume as they protect their land -- and their "special relationship" with the Moles, whom they expect to come over for coffee regularly and to enjoy recreational activities with them on their poor contractors' salaries.

It reminds me of what Yury Afansyev, the Russian historian, described as "the aggressively-obedient silent majority".  That by and large, the Soviet people weren't just content to avoid or ignore dissent; they would become "aggressively obedient" to the regime and silent about the obvious problems like food shortages.

I actually think Bellisseria is the Lindens' greatest invention and actually represents a very mature awakening on their part to the fact that they have to serve customers and give them what they want if they want to get their server and staff costs paid. An old forums' denizen who worked as a computer programmer in a big firm called this attention to *customer requirements*. The open source ethos is about serving oneself on one's whims and perhaps some tightly-knit like-minded community of hackers. But fulfilling *customer requirements* is what the grown-up developer has to do. 

Lots and lots of people enjoy Bellisseria. And that's ok -- let them. Most people want a replica of American suburbia as an ideal. I don't but then I had it growing up and found it fairly ghastly.  I think virtual suburbia was selling itself, so I've been mystified as to why the Lindens felt they had to encourage aggressive resident roleplay and fiercely territorial DJs to make it work. It competes directly with Mainland rentals but I myself maintain 4 stamp venues in Belli and I enjoy taking train rides through it -- where I never encounter a soul.

Mostly what people get out of Bellisseria is freedom from blight and lag caused by unscrupulous neighbours -- and predictability. Hell is other people. Bellisseria to some extent protects you from the other people in hell.

To be sure, there are those Trumansville moments when you see on repeat the same flowerpot and the same lady on the bicycle and the Volkswagen again. But it's ok, they're nice flowerpots.

I don't feel that people with a different philosophy than mine interfere with my enjoyment of SL until:

o they dominate the forums and browbeat people and AR those they dislike and make it stick

o they imply that newbies are harmed, those precious innocent creatures who more likely than not make six-figures as computer programmers or graphic designers

o they imply that if I express dissent I suppress *their* way of life.

Somebody in the view with miles of parking lots causes chagrin and annoyance, especially when it is empty much of the time (like the spam cars). But in many cases, I can move. Dump land. Get new land for $1/m. Or put up a wall. Or expect the tenants to put builds on de-render.  Sometimes it doesn't last, and it's empty fields with Linden kudzu again...

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

32 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

Perhaps those complaints should be addressed to the Lab, where Governance can actually do something about them, each occurrence specifically.  General complaining does nothing except encourage more whinging.  Provide a solution which can be acted upon publicly and save naming to an AR or a support ticket.

This is fairly silly and oblivious of history.

For four long years, a group of us land dealers and Mainland residents complained to the Lindens at their then-inworld town halls and side meetings about cynical land cutting like "the Bush guy" and extortionist ad farm sales as with "Mr Lee's Hong Kong" (all long gone now). We protested with signs in the welcome areas and at the Governor's Mansion. We wrote on the forums and in blogs. And finally Jack Linden who was VP of customer relations at the time, relented and created the policy regarding limitations on ad farming. In part our protests worked, but in part the Lindens themselves realized that they could roll out new regions, but no one would buy them on the auction (in the system of that era) because they were too quickly ruined by cut-throat land cutters.

Must of what we have in SL comes from resident protest. I had an entire exhibit on this phenomenon at SL20B. This exhibit wasn't banned; it was admitted and Moles even helped on some of its difficult aspects. It was appreciated and visited.

It tells the story of significant curbing of griefing; protections on privacy against bots; hundreds of zoned sims -- these all came about due to strenuous resident protesting to create their ideal world, which is a positive, not "negative" phenomenon.

The Lindens openly and cynically sell microparcels to known land-cutters and ruinators of the view. They are documented again and again. Sometimes group ARs and confrontation at the MonCierge meetings curbs this. The Lindens don't have the staff they used to have to respond to every complaint. So they need to hear a sustained chorus.

We offer solutions like making it impossible to sell land under 512 m2 or making it impossible to build on land under 64 or similar measures. There are always various solutions  provided with protest which is LEGITIMATE.

Just because the forums are neutered, don't imagine that every other venue, public and private is. The Lindens read social media and even have their operatives on it.

ARs seldom work for land issues as distinct from mass griefing or serious violations of other TOS statues. The Lindens have an answer for the many problems of the Mainland: it's called Bellisseria. If you want, you can live there. If you don't, you can keep trying to make Mainland a better place -- which we have done for 20 years, thank you. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

Re:  commercial rentals at L$1/m2 per LI per week,

Wait. $1L per meter? As in 1024L for 1024 m2? Per week or month?

Or $1 per LI? As in $351 for a 1024 m2?

That isn't a cheap rent. A dollar a prim is what I charge in the most prized areas where I am consciously asking people to support the land preserve along with their enjoyment of the natural beauty. But that's rare.

You can't get rentals for $1/prim.

I would charge $250L/350 prims or $225/300 or something like that. 

My idea of cheap rent -- consistent with the whole market -- is 0.65/prim or less (prims and land impact are virtually indistinguishable).

I used to charge 0.50 in the very community whose histories and realities appear to be so contended (I thought the land visibly for sale over the past 3 years told the story graphically LOL). I recently raised the rent to 0.60 and lost some customers, it happens. Then new ones came because they appreciate cheap rentals -- elsewhere there are overstuffed fancy high-end rentals for $1 or even $2 in that area. 

Rentals are not usually offered by the meter; usually it's by the prim, especially if on group land.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

 

Wait. $1L per meter? As in 1024L for 1024 m2? Per week or month?

Or $1 per LI? As in $351 for a 1024 m2?

That isn't a cheap rent. A dollar a prim is what I charge in the most prized areas where I am consciously asking people to support the land preserve along with their enjoyment of the natural beauty. But that's rare.

You can't get rentals for $1/prim.

I would charge $250L/350 prims or $225/300 or something like that. 

My idea of cheap rent -- consistent with the whole market -- is 0.65/prim or less (prims and land impact are virtually indistinguishable).

I used to charge 0.50 in the very community whose histories and realities appear to be so contended (I thought the land visibly for sale over the past 3 years told the story graphically LOL). I recently raised the rent to 0.60 and lost some customers, it happens. Then new ones came because they appreciate cheap rentals -- elsewhere there are overstuffed fancy high-end rentals for $1 or even $2 in that area. 

Rentals are not usually offered by the meter; usually it's by the prim, especially if on group land.

The quote you are replying to isn't MINE, I never said anything aboit 1 L$/m rentals, or indeed any rentals at all. 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

43 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

Perhaps those complaints should be addressed to the Lab, where Governance can actually do something about them, each occurrence specifically.  General complaining does nothing except encourage more whinging.  Provide a solution which can be acted upon publicly and save naming to an AR or a support ticket.

People complain about land cutters and adfarm spam parcels, because Abuse Reports don't work as often as they should.

That Rail-Fail spammer in Satori, after letting his broken rail-fail rot for almost two years, came back and started land cutting and slapping in Advert monoliths, claiming they were a "public service" when in fact they were illegal adverts for his rail-fail, as in "openly violating the regulations regarding advert signs in SL", over 8 m high, and glowing/full bright.

They were reported, some were removed, others were left standing, seemingly at random. That sort of thing causes people to complain HERE iin the forums that the rules are not enforced, or even that the rules don't work.

 

Claiming people should not complain, is yet more Holier-than-thou out of touch Cult of Pointless Positivity Shill-ism.

[Prokofy Neva]

22 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

The quote you are replying to isn't MINE, I never said anything aboit 1 L$/m rentals, or indeed any rentals at all. 

Yes, it's a glitch, I fixed it. It's BJoyful's claim about CC.

[BJoyful]

21 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

People complain about land cutters and adfarm spam parcels, because Abuse Reports don't work as often as they should.

If any AR goes seemingly unnoticed, I suspect either the 'offender' was deemed to be compliant by Governance despite your opinion.  Personally I've never had any AR I reported ignored, even if the result was not what I hoped for when I made my AR.

21 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Claiming people should not complain, is yet more Holier-than-thou out of touch Cult of Pointless Positivity Shill-ism.

I believe people should always complain and post publicly a request for support for issues which seemingly can't be resolved any other way.  Change will never be effected if no one complains about things which they don't like.  I don't think those appeals for support should ever name and shame specific particular individuals or instances unless a reasonable attempt has been made to effect change privately by IM or inworld face to face discussion or by AR or a Support Request for LL's intervention or clarification first.  Often a compromise can be reached if one party doesn't attempt to intimidate or bully the other.  Some of my best friends in RL and SL have developed from contact initiated to resolve a difference of opinion. ♥

Also important is to have patience and realistic expectations and ultimately, provide a possible solution which can be acted upon by the party which with you take up an issue.

Edited November 9, 2023 by BJoyful
afterthought

[BJoyful]

40 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

The quote you are replying to isn't MINE, I never said anything aboit 1 L$/m rentals, or indeed any rentals at all. 

I think the Quote you think I Quoted wasn't posted by me, but by Prokofy:

"

"

I'm pretty sure I wasn't referring to anything in particular, as I've "ignored" Prokofy some time ago, maybe yesterday after I found her diatribe was interfering with my enjoyment of Second Life Forum discussion ♥

Edited November 9, 2023 by BJoyful
afterthought

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, BJoyful said:

If any AR goes seemingly unnoticed, I suspect either the 'offender' was deemed to be compliant by Governance despite your opinion.  Personally I've never had any AR I reported ignored, even if the result was not what I hoped for when I made my AR.

That's nice, shame it is not in fact true for everyone.

Encroachment on Gov Linden owned land is a violation, and Abuse reportable, I in fact filed an AR on one individual, for using a cantilevered build ( that's where you have a root prim on your land, but the rest of the linkset is on other people's land ).

The person in question had a 0.1 m square invisible root prim in the corner of their parcel, supporting a 64 m long, 8 m wide, 12 m high "landing strip prim" that was separated from their parcel by more than 20 m at its closest approach.

That's a pretty open and shut violation, but, it was left where it was despite being a TEXT BOOK Abuse Reportable Encroachment., we're not talking "a couple of inches over the line, not worth bothering with" here. This was BLATANT theft of LL land and dodging the increased tier.

 

@Scylla Rhiadra posted elsewhere about her fight to get AR's taken seriously when dealing with homophobic hate speech griefers, an issue that was only resolved when a "friend who can call in a Linden" got on the case, and turned up with an actual LL employee in tow as a personal favour.

Imagine if you were not friends with a person who has a pet LL employee to call on, and you'd submitted dozens of legitimate AR's and nothing had been done, and then some smug holier-than-thou fruitcake said "you must be wrong, those griefer trash are obviously innocent!", 

I suspect if that happened to YOU, you'd change your tune and complain on the forums quick enough.

 

[BJoyful]

3 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

That's nice, shame it is not in fact true for everyone.

This is also just your opinion.  If you (or anyone else) have an issue which you feel is being ignored, I'm sure you could file a Support Ticket explaining the same, and ask that it be directed to the attention of @Tommy Linden as he is the Linden who looks after Governance.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

23 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

Often a compromise can be reached if one party doesn't attempt to intimidate or bully the other.  Some of my best friends in RL and SL have developed from contact initiated to resolve a difference of opinion. ♥

An arrogant, ignorant, clueless, worthless, useless, over-entitled ego-wh*re trespassed on my land, got punted and banned by the security orb, then came back and loitered outside my property and initiated contact, they suggested a "compromise" where I would unban them, add them to the orbs guest list, and invite them to be a member of my land group so they could enjoy full rezzing rights. In exchange they offered to tell me how rich they were, and how nice their two luxury homes were.

 

I responded to their suggested compromise with the suggestion that they "fork off and dye".

Please stop with the "I'm a better person because I hug my enemies" crapolaa, because I really don't care about your social theories.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Zalificent Corvinus

[BJoyful]

7 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Encroachment on Gov Linden owned land is a violation, and Abuse reportable, I in fact filed an AR on one individual, for using a cantilevered build ( that's where you have a root prim on your land, but the rest of the linkset is on other people's land ).

The person in question had a 0.1 m square invisible root prim in the corner of their parcel, supporting a 64 m long, 8 m wide, 12 m high "landing strip prim" that was separated from their parcel by more than 20 m at its closest approach.

That's a pretty open and shut violation, but, it was left where it was despite being a TEXT BOOK Abuse Reportable Encroachment., we're not talking "a couple of inches over the line, not worth bothering with" here. This was BLATANT theft of LL land and dodging the increased tier.

 

@Scylla Rhiadra posted elsewhere about her fight to get AR's taken seriously when dealing with homophobic hate speech griefers, an issue that was only resolved when a "friend who can call in a Linden" got on the case, and turned up with an actual LL employee in tow as a personal favour.

Imagine if you were not friends with a person who has a pet LL employee to call on, and you'd submitted dozens of legitimate AR's and nothing had been done, and then some smug holier-than-thou fruitcake said "you must be wrong, those griefer trash are obviously innocent!", 

I suspect if that happened to YOU, you'd change your tune and complain on the forums quick enough.

^^^ None of my business, nor the business of anyone except the parties involved.  This matter should be easily resolved by addressing it directly with the parties involved.  Perhaps your approach is unnecessarily aggressive or offensive and therefore queue'd accordingly?  As a next step I'd advise filing a support ticket or attend the relevant departmental Meeting, hosted by the Lindens regularly inworld, or file a JIRA.

[Obi Linden]

Hey all! Happy-Almost-Friday! Lets remember to keep these threads on topic and keep all personal dispute discussions in the DMs! If anyone has any Governance issues where they believe a community guidelines violation has occurred, please file Abuse Reports on the issue. If you continue to experience the potential violation after youve file the report, continue filing the ARs as it helps the Governance team track repeat offenders. Do keep in mind that the Governance team cannot discuss the outcomes of their investigations with anyone, so they will not provide updates on the matter. If yall have any concerns, please file a ticket through our support portal and we will try to assist you as best as we can!

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, BJoyful said:

None of my business

The first correct thing you've said in this thread.

1 minute ago, BJoyful said:

This matter should be easily resolved by addressing it directly with the parties involved.

Ah the "Hug the criminals and talk nicely to them" approach, yeah II don't give a damn about your inane social theories., The cr8iminal broke a law, they got reported to the "cops", the "cops" did nothing. I don't have a pet LL "Cop" on call, and I won't waste my time going to some damn fool meeting where it's going to be hard to get heard over the ranting of the social experiment crowd, especially as II don't live on Californian time, and these meetings often take place too late at night for me.

 

7 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

Perhaps your approach is unnecessarily aggressive or offensive and therefore queue'd accordingly?

I'd advise you to stop making fraudulent assumptions, and patronising condescending gratuitous personal insults.

I was out and about, II saw a "SL Crime", I AR'd the "SL Criminal", there was no "approach" to said criminal, nor was one needed. See Abuse Reportable offence, Abuse Report it, or don't.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

It's simply not true that if you AR isn't answered and the problem eliminated, that therefore it isn't justified.

Absolute. Not. True.

I have posted such situations on Twitter where groups of people then come an AR the situation and it either gets dealt with finally by the Lindens, or some "altruistic soul" comes and buys micro-parcels and links them up to re-sell. I think that isn't helpful because it only enables the land cutters.

I have had grief prims on physics in the air and on the ground at neighbours' parcels for months on end, some rooted and encroaching that I can't return on my land, and my multiple ARs and neighbours' and tenants' ARs do absolutely no good.

Finally, at the MonCierge meeting I manage to nab one of those Lindens with a numbered Governance name, and they fix the problem. One told me I should file tickets for persistent situations like this. Oh? But we're told NOT to file tickets and filing tickets on governance issues is a path to a reprimand and/or ignoring the problem.

I find that group ARs do work. 

[Prokofy Neva]

49 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

This is also just your opinion.  If you (or anyone else) have an issue which you feel is being ignored, I'm sure you could file a Support Ticket explaining the same, and ask that it be directed to the attention of @Tommy Linden as he is the Linden who looks after Governance.

http://alphavilleherald.com/2012/09/linden-lab-nukes-sandvich-sim.html