A Positive Brainstorming / Suggestion Box Thread - Ideas for Improving Second Life Sociability, Usability and Retention

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

The only way to hide picks is.to not have them.

Kind of "begs the question", why put stuff in your profile if you don't want people to see it?

 

[EliseAnne85]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Kind of "begs the question", why put stuff in your profile if you don't want people to see it?

 

No, I mean a way to toggle it off and on in case of a problem, not permanently.  If one wanted permanently, then they just delete all their PICKS.  So, what I'm suggesting is a way to toggle PICKS off in case of an emergency such as an altercation that has gone out of control because PICKS are not always easy to write and often have sentimental value people might want to protect until things hopefully blow over.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, EliseAnne85 said:

No, I mean a way to toggle it off and on in case of a problem, not permanently.  If one wanted permanently, then they just delete all their PICKS.  So, what I'm suggesting is a way to toggle PICKS off in case of an emergency such as an altercation that has gone out of control because PICKS are not always easy to write and often have sentimental value people might want to protect until things hopefully blow over.

Right so, I'd extend that to "the ability to hide any section of your profile". Another "use-case" could be, "hide it while it's a work-in-progress". Basically, one can come up with multiple reasons to enable / disable profile parts.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

11 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

By "Submitting" them, I meant also "Submit for Review". 

A panel of properly educated people would make sure the item was OK.

Regarding LOD: The item doesn't need to be Mesh just because it's in the Library.  Just saying!

In fact, if "new" and "nice" items were in the Library - and it was more visible, perhaps it would inspire newer people to create more with non-Mesh.

LL doesn’t have people who are qualified/versed or educated in content creation and industry standards to ensemble a panel nor would it be cost effective hence the Moles alternative. The ones who were have sadly departed.  

Prims perhaps but I honestly can’t see new residents wanting a prim outfit versus seeing what mesh offers as an example of “enticing content”.

That being said a few prim items could be fun for tinkering with for budding creators like boats, houses etc.

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

LL doesn’t have people who are qualified/versed or educated in content creation and industry standards to ensemble a panel nor would it be cost effective hence the Moles alternative. The ones who were have sadly departed.  

Prims perhaps but I honestly can’t see new residents wanting a prim outfit versus seeing what mesh offers as an example of “enticing content”.

That being said a few prim items could be fun for tinkering with for budding creators like boats, houses etc.

 

 

Of course LL doesn't! 
Yes, I never really meant my suggestion is "mesh".

Thanks!

[EliseAnne85]

21 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

It was for me and still is for the most part. 

We don't all have the same experiences from our early days.

If people have to learn all this stuff before ever even logging into the grid, they will never log in to the grid.

I'd say my SL has been about 50/50.  50% of the time asking questions for help from friends or at the very beginning - strangers, and the other 50% I just figured it out myself...and went "oh, that's what that is for".

Also, I read her suggestion wrong.  I thought she meant teach the program, meaning like going to a class but *not before* logging into the grid.   Joining learning classes should be voluntary.

Just an FYI for the community, not directed to Silent:    FS has classes.  One can join FS support inworld groups.  

Edited February 21, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Also, I read her suggestion wrong.  I thought she meant teach the program, meaning like going to a class but *not before* logging into the grid.   Joining learning classes should be voluntary.

I thought it was ambiguous also.

I suppose a positive take on it could be:  IF classes were available, THEN people could take those classes, IF they were directed towards the classes. Even better if they were "official" classes.

If people were NOT directed towards the classes, then they would have no idea the classes exist.

To be honest, reiterating my earlier suggestion: I think it is a lot to expect *NEW* people to go searching Google, YouTube, and even Second Life for "Classes".  There should be a general method of letting people know there are classes (not just the front page, not just the login page, not just the blog entries), and about new classes when they become available.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

31 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I thought it was ambiguous also.

I suppose a positive take on it could be:  IF classes were available, THEN people could take those classes, IF they were directed towards the classes. Even better if they were "official" classes.

If people were NOT directed towards the classes, then they would have no idea the classes exist.

To be honest, reiterating my earlier suggestion: I think it is a lot to expect *NEW* people to go searching Google, YouTube, and even Second Life for "Classes".  There should be a general method of letting people know there are classes (not just the front page, not just the login page, not just the blog entries), and about new classes when they become available.

I gotta ask cuz I'm super nosy and perhaps I missed it on a previous page - classes for what exactly? 

The highlighted is an important point - When thinking of games/platforms with super involved or complex systems that take a bit extra effort to learn (off the top of my head - Minecraft, Roblox, Garry's Mod, Oxygen Not Included, Rimworld, Factorio, etc.), the usual learning method for players is an in-depth and well-formatted Wiki. That, combined with tutorials on YouTube (either made by streamers or well-known content creators in that genre) and the occasional OMG wut am I doing HALP post on Reddit/Steam/Discord, is pretty much how players get most of their "new to the world" education. I've seen some games that have their Wikis built-in to the UI as well, so you don't have to keep hopping out and into a browser. That is suuuuuuuper handy.

Classes that focus on RL skills might appeal to new users (like 3D modeling or animation), but if they're classes on "how does this place work" - a Wiki or short tutorial on the Tubez should suffice.

That said - do we even have a good Wiki? *peeks*  Okay yeah, that needs a bit of a cleanup. The Knowledge Base itself is pretty good, but "Wiki" is a more familiar term and if newbies run to Google to search for it, they'll land on a page that could use some love.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I gotta ask cuz I'm super nosy and perhaps I missed it on a previous page - classes for what exactly? 

Exactly? I, personally, did not suggest classes on "exact" topics.  (At least, I do not remember suggesting such.) Would you like to dig into which topics that I and others think we need classes on?  Some of us would be guessing, since we're so "old".

How about a random list, will that get you thinking about exact classes?

- Basics: Choosing an Avatar, Flying, Walking, Sitting, Wearing, Chatting, etc.

- Getting Dressed: How to wear things, create outfits, etc.

- Inventory management: Searching, Sorting, Folders, "best practices"

- Finding Events

- Managing Friends Lists

- Managing Groups

- Buying L$

- Mesh Avatars: Selecting, Buying, Using

- Buying Items: from Individuals, Stores, Marketplace

- Photography: Beginner, Advanced, Environment Settings

- Building: Prims, where to find a Sandbox, etc.

- Land: Linden Permium Homes, Renting Land, Buying Mainland, Buying Private regions, Homesteads, Managing Land Access

- Scripting: What's a script?

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Would you like to dig into which topics that I and others think we need classes on?  Some of us would be guessing, since we're so "old".

Nope, can't help with that, I'm afraid. I was asking because I was curious, but I personally wouldn't touch classes with a ten-foot pole. If I hopped into a platform that required all that just to learn how to use it, I'd bounce. 🤷‍♀️

I brought up Wikis since that's what most places rely on to introduce its users to the interface/functions.

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I brought up Wikis since that's what most places rely on to introduce its users to the interface/functions.

But..how do users know about the Wikis? Do the users have to be "smart enough" / "experienced enough" to know to search for a Wiki? This kind of goes to my previous suggestions, let the users know about stuff like the Wikis.  Not sure how they find the Wikis today.

[Cali Souther]

On 2/17/2023 at 11:58 AM, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

It's been a while since I built anything substantial out of prims, in what way have they become more complicated to use?

As for Blender, it isn't the only option when it comes to creating content for SL and some of the alternatives are a lot easier to get to grips with.

Clothing,  for one,  has become a great deal more complicated with mesh.  I'm not an expert in any of this,  so I'm not sure what other choices (besides Blender) there are - but everything I've looked at is a bit more complicated that paint shop.

Building has always been more complicated in Second Life than it is in any game I've ever played - such as Sims.  

I do realize that if anyone could do it - everyone would do it - and no one would be able to sell their builds.  I do,  however, think - it would help retain folks in SL if the process were less complicated.

Just my humble 2 cents.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, Cali Souther said:

Clothing,  for one,  has become a great deal more complicated with mesh.  I'm not an expert in any of this,  so I'm not sure what other choices (besides Blender) there are - but everything I've looked at is a bit more complicated that paint shop.

I definitely agree that creating content for Second Life is a more complex and involved process than it was before the introduction of mesh (and prior to that sculpted prims) but that's a slightly different issue to the one you alluded to in the post I quoted.

I know that may seem pedantic but in this particular instance the distinction really does matter because the first and probably most important step in brainstorming a solution to any problem is to clearly and accurately define exactly what problem it is you're trying to solve.

So, in this instance, the problem isn't so much that creating content in SL has become infinitely more complicated but rather that the current in-world creation tools aren't capable of producing content of the same caliber as content created using dedicated 3D applications.

Now obviously the ideal solution to that problem is to update the in-world building tools and introduce new more versatile and powerful features that will enable users to create better content comparable to that created using dedicated 3D applications.

Of course not all of that solution is realistic/attainable (and the part that isn't has been struck through just to make it clear) because no matter how much time and resources you invest in developing new tools and features for the viewer you're never going to be able to compete with dedicated 3D applications when it comes to the power and versatility they offer creators.

Which leads us to another equally important part of brainstorming solutions to problems, keeping expectations realistic and not spending time trying to fix issues that are insoluble.

 

2 hours ago, Cali Souther said:

Building has always been more complicated in Second Life than it is in any game I've ever played - such as Sims.

That's just the price we pay for the level of versatility and creative freedom that SL provides us with but I think it's a fair trade.

 

2 hours ago, Cali Souther said:

I do realize that if anyone could do it - everyone would do it - and no one would be able to sell their builds.  I do,  however, think - it would help retain folks in SL if the process were less complicated.

Just my humble 2 cents.

Well you can add my 2 cents to that because I completely agree with you that in-world building needs an overhaul, the question is what can we buy for 4 cents?  

I don't make content to sell in SL so as far as I'm concerned if LL could wave a magic wand and introduce features that allowed every resident to create stunning content in-world I'd be absolutely overjoyed but I'm certainly curbing my expectations as to what can potentially be achieved.

As for specific ideas on what those improvements and new features may be there have already been some great suggestions including a recent and quite detailed post by @ChinRey on ways in which the existing primitives system could be expanded and improved upon.

I'd personally like to see something much more ambitious in the form of a new type of voxel-based in-viewer building system, something akin to Firestorms new Local Mesh feature but with the addition of a rudimentary but extensible voxel-based building tool which would run locally rather than in-world and integrate with the mesh uploader in order to convert the temporary voxel objects to mesh and upload them.

Another alternative would be for LL to overhaul the current SL linkset to include proper hierarchies that allow for parent-child relations and sub-trees which can be animated simply by adjusting the transformations of the parent (but since I'm not that familiar with the way in which linksets are currently handled I have no idea how possible that would be).

As for creating clothing in-world I've seen a few suggestions but every experience I have with cloth simulations in 3D apps suggests that attempting to incorporate something like that into the SL viewer is a really bad idea unless you're actively trying to drive away every resident that doesn't own a modern graphics workstation/high-end gaming pc.

Anyway, regardless of what improvements LL do (or don't) make to in-world creation tools, I think we will have to accept that using dedicated 2D/3D content creation tools will always yield superior results to what can be achieved within the SL viewer (at least in the hands of someone that knows how to use those tools).

[HeathcliffMontague]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:17 PM, Love Zhaoying said:

Here's a good one:  Give new users, and encourage them to try, a decent, attachable "car" or other vehicle they can use to explore Second Life instead of just flying. ("Attachable" so they don't have to be able to Rez it.)

Yes, there's probably free cars in the Library and already all over the Marketplace. But encouraging new users "up front" to try Driving in Second Life helps get them started in a different / more familiar way then Flying.

Maybe fix Region Crossings too, so Driving is not a disappointment..

For those who may say, "But what about the Vehicle Creators / Sellers"? I say: LL is about to give everyone free starter Mesh bodies..

 

Years ago the Firestorm team gave away a motorcycle that was so slow in 1st gear and stable enough that anyone who could walk in SL could basically drive it. Still looks decent enough for an old sculpty, basic ACS 6, no frills. Handles pretty well still, I just dug it out of my inventory, and I'm someone who does the whole chasing leaderboard times thing. 

I traversed at least 80 % of the Mainland on it way back in the day. There really is no shortage of rez zones on the Mainland. 

Fixing region crossings would sure help with some user retention, absolutely. Provided new folks actually know what the Mainland is   . I'd venture most don't. I had absolutely no idea, had to have it expained to me. Guess a lot still somes down to short, condensed and readily available info.

[ChinRey]

51 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

As for specific ideas on what those improvements and new features may be there have already been some great suggestions including a recent and quite detailed post by @ChinRey on ways in which the existing primitives system could be expanded and improved upon.

Thank you for remembering. 🙂

It wasn't that detailed a post though, only a few scattered examples and I didn't even mention what is possibly the most interesting way the prim system could be expanded: how prims could be merged into single objects without turning them into hard-to-handle polylist meshes.

How to create a better in-world system is a bit off topic in this thread though, what is relevant here is why we should do it.

The answer is obvious: It adds more activity to a virtual world.

I know a guy who works as an IT teacher at a high school. He told me how impressed his students were when they saw the lovely home he had made in Meta's metaverse and how fast their enthusiasm evaporated when they realized the only thing they could actually do there was walk around and watch the scenery.

All attempts at creating a shared virtual reality suffer from this problem, they tend to get boring fast because there isn't really that much to do there.

In-world building for fun and profit (or at least the illusion of future profit) is one solution to this and it's fairly easy to implement, especially in Second Life. All game/VR platforms I'm aware of have some kind of in-world building options but none of them are anywhere near as advanced and flexible as SL's (and opensim's) prims and that gives us a very strong advantage over the competition. If only we could take advantage of it.

Edited February 21, 2023 by ChinRey

[Love Zhaoying]

37 minutes ago, HeathcliffMontague said:

Years ago the Firestorm team gave away a motorcycle that was so slow in 1st gear and stable enough that anyone who could walk in SL could basically drive it. Still looks decent enough for an old sculpty, basic ACS 6, no frills. Handles pretty well still, I just dug it out of my inventory, and I'm someone who does the whole chasing leaderboard times thing. 

I traversed at least 80 % of the Mainland on it way back in the day. There really is no shortage of rez zones on the Mainland. 

Fixing region crossings would sure help with some user retention, absolutely. Provided new folks actually know what the Mainland is   . I'd venture most don't. I had absolutely no idea, had to have it expained to me. Guess a lot still somes down to short, condensed and readily available info.

It was hard not to tag @animatsin my previous post!! 🙂

[animats]

19 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Provided new folks actually know what the Mainland is. I'd venture most don't. I had absolutely no idea, had to have it expained to me.

Now that's sad.

I've been toying with the idea, for my own viewer, that the initial screen is the map of SL, and it zooms in on where you're going as login or teleports take place. Like Google Earth. That's to give people a sense of place and the feel of a big world.

Meanwhile, my slippy map of SL is still working, so you can travel around the SL map.

[Istelathis]

31 minutes ago, animats said:

Now that's sad.

I've been toying with the idea, for my own viewer, that the initial screen is the map of SL, and it zooms in on where you're going as login or teleports take place. Like Google Earth. That's to give people a sense of place and the feel of a big world.

Meanwhile, my slippy map of SL is still working, so you can travel around the SL map.

This would be absolutely amazing, and serve as an excellent visual aid for new users of SL to experience just how vast SL is.  Especially if it uses your slippy map as it loads quickly and allows the angle of the camera to change.  

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, animats said:

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Provided new folks actually know what the Mainland is. I'd venture most don't. I had absolutely no idea, had to have it expained to me.

Now that's sad.

I've been toying with the idea, for my own viewer, that the initial screen is the map of SL, and it zooms in on where you're going as login or teleports take place. Like Google Earth. That's to give people a sense of place and the feel of a big world.

Meanwhile, my slippy map of SL is still working, so you can travel around the SL map.

I wonder who I was quoting! (Those became my words, but that's OK - I'm not a complainer!)

I see now, it was HeathcliffMontague, where I tagged you! 🙂

Yeah, I thought about you because of all your research into Region crossings. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

Suggestion: more options for "undo". For example, in Building, Wearing, and Inventory changes.

[Ernst Osterham]

11 hours ago, ChinRey said:

 

All attempts at creating a shared virtual reality suffer from this problem, they tend to get boring fast because there isn't really that much to do there.

That’s a risk SL has going forward I feel, also.  SL seems to be getting better performance, better graphics, some neat features, but it’s like there’s less to do in-world than ever before.  
 

I find myself daydreaming about creating, building, or even just shopping and putting together an outfit or environment but then realize there’s nothing to DO with it in-world anymore other than maybe take some photos.

Maybe it’s just me being here too long but a big part of the magic of SL that drew me in was having a creative, inventive world to build, shape, and tinker with.  It was like playing an MMO where you could just create your own mods in-game.
 

 Things that make that more accessible to residents in some form, even with an updated prim building system is great.  Yes it’s better and easier to create in external programs but it also removes you from the actual world almost entirely.  

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Idea: "Anti-Keyframe" Motion for Objects (NPC's, etc.) / Avatars.

Basically, move when a frame is NOT happening.

Use-cases:

- Sneaking up on people

- Lurking

- Skulking

- Hide & Go Seek

- Being a Ninja

- Weeping Angel (Dr. Who reference)

[Love Zhaoying]

Idea: Add more modern "chat" handling.

1. Show "XXX is typing something" if use XXX did not start their typing with "/".

Caveat: Do not remember if this already exists in any chat form in Second Life.

2. Allow "delete recent chat comment" if some time limit did not expire, and there was no response yet.

Caveat: Assume the comment would still be in the chat logs.

 

 

[Cali Souther]

On 2/21/2023 at 2:39 PM, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I definitely agree that creating content for Second Life is a more complex and involved process than it was before the introduction of mesh (and prior to that sculpted prims) but that's a slightly different issue to the one you alluded to in the post I quoted.

I know that may seem pedantic but in this particular instance the distinction really does matter because the first and probably most important step in brainstorming a solution to any problem is to clearly and accurately define exactly what problem it is you're trying to solve.

So, in this instance, the problem isn't so much that creating content in SL has become infinitely more complicated but rather that the current in-world creation tools aren't capable of producing content of the same caliber as content created using dedicated 3D applications.

Now obviously the ideal solution to that problem is to update the in-world building tools and introduce new more versatile and powerful features that will enable users to create better content comparable to that created using dedicated 3D applications.

Of course not all of that solution is realistic/attainable (and the part that isn't has been struck through just to make it clear) because no matter how much time and resources you invest in developing new tools and features for the viewer you're never going to be able to compete with dedicated 3D applications when it comes to the power and versatility they offer creators.

Which leads us to another equally important part of brainstorming solutions to problems, keeping expectations realistic and not spending time trying to fix issues that are insoluble.

 

That's just the price we pay for the level of versatility and creative freedom that SL provides us with but I think it's a fair trade.

 

Well you can add my 2 cents to that because I completely agree with you that in-world building needs an overhaul, the question is what can we buy for 4 cents?  

I don't make content to sell in SL so as far as I'm concerned if LL could wave a magic wand and introduce features that allowed every resident to create stunning content in-world I'd be absolutely overjoyed but I'm certainly curbing my expectations as to what can potentially be achieved.

As for specific ideas on what those improvements and new features may be there have already been some great suggestions including a recent and quite detailed post by @ChinRey on ways in which the existing primitives system could be expanded and improved upon.

I'd personally like to see something much more ambitious in the form of a new type of voxel-based in-viewer building system, something akin to Firestorms new Local Mesh feature but with the addition of a rudimentary but extensible voxel-based building tool which would run locally rather than in-world and integrate with the mesh uploader in order to convert the temporary voxel objects to mesh and upload them.

Another alternative would be for LL to overhaul the current SL linkset to include proper hierarchies that allow for parent-child relations and sub-trees which can be animated simply by adjusting the transformations of the parent (but since I'm not that familiar with the way in which linksets are currently handled I have no idea how possible that would be).

As for creating clothing in-world I've seen a few suggestions but every experience I have with cloth simulations in 3D apps suggests that attempting to incorporate something like that into the SL viewer is a really bad idea unless you're actively trying to drive away every resident that doesn't own a modern graphics workstation/high-end gaming pc.

Anyway, regardless of what improvements LL do (or don't) make to in-world creation tools, I think we will have to accept that using dedicated 2D/3D content creation tools will always yield superior results to what can be achieved within the SL viewer (at least in the hands of someone that knows how to use those tools).

I’m a simple person.  I can play games that allow me to be creative and all I have to spend is the initial purchase price of the game and maybe a bit more for DLC now and then.   It’s infinitely less “complicated” and less expensive than my efforts (to be creative) have been in Second Life.

Second Life is not a game, it’s a virtual world [ I understand that ] – but you still need to have things to do for it to be fun.  Exploring other people’s creative efforts is fun, but not endlessly so….

SL tends to attract what I call Engineer types.  Intelligent and talented folks who understand how to build and create in SL – (what programs they use along with SL is beside the point for me) and then there are the rest of us….

I was suggesting that, if we want to attract and retain people – it would be helpful if creating was simplified.  If everything about SL was simplified and less expensive (to be honest).   No you don’t have to pay for premium or spend a lot of houses and clothes … but that brings us back to …   you still need to have things to do for fun….   being creative is fun for me,  and I wish I was better at it in SL is really all I was alluding to. 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Cali Souther said:

SL tends to attract what I call Engineer types.

Some call us "Geeks"! In olden times, we were called "Nerds".

Somewhat like the Wizard in Monty Python and the Holy Grail who says, "There are some who call me..Tim?"