"It's really, really hard to build a world" - Philip on Civility

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

You don't. And that is where LL has it right. They don't do any more policing that what is necessary to maintain at least a semblance of order. 

We already have the ability to AR someone. Any more authority than that will be abused even more than the AR system already is. Don't think I need remind you of AR parties. *cough*RedZone*cough*

It's the same in RL, difference is you call the police and not the major's office. Other than that, you go down to your nearest precinct and file formal complaint. Don't know if it can be done online. I doubt in some small cities and most small towns.

Policing a large platform online isn't any different than policing a RL area. You're still dealing with humans and they're still going to pull the same stupid human tricks.

I totally agree that the best policing is the least policing.

And I'm certainly not talking about "AR parties" or even "inspection teams" or "beat cops" patrolling around, looking for infractions proactively. We've seen what that does to, for instance, people of colour in many RL places. The AR is an element of community policing, and a really important one -- perhaps the most important one.

But if we're talking, again, about scaling here, there's going to need to be some sort of mechanism. LL can barely handle ARs in-world as it is. A metaverse platform with potentially hundreds of millions of residents online concurrently? It wouldn't stand a chance.

[Silent Mistwalker]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I totally agree that the best policing is the least policing.

And I'm certainly not talking about "AR parties" or even "inspection teams" or "beat cops" patrolling around, looking for infractions proactively. We've seen what that does to, for instance, people of colour in many RL places. The AR is an element of community policing, and a really important one -- perhaps the most important one.

But if we're talking, again, about scaling here, there's going to need to be some sort of mechanism. LL can barely handle ARs in-world as it is. A metaverse platform with potentially hundreds of millions of residents online concurrently? It wouldn't stand a chance.

You've made my point for me.

If the metaverse turns out to be a "conglomerate" of different virtual worlds of different kinds (think HyperGrid), then each platform does its own scaling up. If it's just one huge open world like SL is, then scaling up is not going to be possible. We are dealing with humans. Humans don't scale well.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

You've made my point for me.

If the metaverse turns out to be a "conglomerate" of different virtual worlds of different kinds (think HyperGrid), then each platform does its own scaling up. If it's just one huge open world like SL is, then scaling up is not going to be possible. We are dealing with humans. Humans don't scale well.

Agreed -- human history is replete with stories of how very unmanageable we are in large groups.

I think if we'd solved this problem in RL, we'd be better placed to talk about how to deal in VWs. And clearly, we haven't.

One thing, though: AI might provide some useful tools, but it sure ain't gonna do the job for us. Not in a satisfactorily humane way.

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Agreed -- human history is replete with stories of how very unmanageable we are in large groups.

Except armies and stuff.

[Luna Bliss]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

human history is replete with stories of how very unmanageable we are in large groups.

Those studies are kind of scary really...how people merge together, especially in stressful situations, and in a sense lose their own mind in some cases....

[Codex Alpha]

40 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The AR is an element of community policing, and a really important one -- perhaps the most important one.

No. People taking responsibility for their own experience and reactions is the most important one, by using the tools they already have to manage their issues - and leaving platform staff out of it.

Yet many many times, I don't see people using those tools, and seem to enjoy running to authority figures to wield as weapons against others. I've watched people literally orgasm with glee when they were successful at 'getting one over' on another user for whatever reason. They could barely hold their innards in, drunk on dopamines that they were able to get someone else to fight their battles for them. A battle that's not even worth it, but manipulating others is addictive to them.

40 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But if we're talking, again, about scaling here, there's going to need to be some sort of mechanism. LL can barely handle ARs in-world as it is. A metaverse platform with potentially hundreds of millions of residents online concurrently? It wouldn't stand a chance.

Yes, and that's a wonderful byproduct of a larger user mass. The tattle taling, the manipulation of staff, the cries of woe and alleged offense simply can't be handled personally anymore - and the people must resort to tools they already have. Like blocks and ignore. Yet to this day you will see users act helpless and victimized when the power is under their fingertip and takes 0.0001% second of their life to implement.

The best thing for any platform is to grow to many numbers so that they can't deal with every little complaint, and that is when a platform is at it's best. Go look to Bansar and other small platforms who never grew past a small number where early adopting groups become their own force, and become toxic to any new user that tries to join. Couldn't happen on VR Chat or RecRoom as they grew too fast.

40 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

A metaverse platform with potentially hundreds of millions of residents online concurrently? It wouldn't stand a chance.

Sounds absolutely amazing and a place I would like to be.

Other than the most extreme (and exceptional) circumstance does  a governance even need to step in - the most 'civil' and fair way is to give people the tools to manage themselves - and leave staff alone.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Ayashe Ninetails]

30 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

A metaverse platform with potentially hundreds of millions of residents online concurrently? It wouldn't stand a chance.

I refuse to believe that will EVER be a thing. 😂

Social media sites/apps can do some impressive numbers, but look how easy that is to jump on. Boop press a button on your phone now you're on your home feed. Bam open up a tab and now you're checking out the latest trends. You can do all that while cooking dinner.

I assume for a metaverse we're talking VR. That takes effort, work, time to get "dressed" in the uglah clunky visor goggles of yesteryore! Putting kids to bed, cleaning up the kitchen, checking all the emails - all before settling down for an uninterrupted session of metaversey shenanigans. Oh crap forgot to take the dog out - off come the goggles. Immersion broken. Might as well go read now.

 

[Luna Bliss]

17 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Couldn't happen on VR Chat or RecRoom as they grew too fast.

I think these places have inner enclaves where people try to take control and exclusion happens, it's just that when the whole virtual world is bigger we don't see those smaller groups as easily.

[Codex Alpha]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think these places have inner enclaves where people try to take control and exclusion happens, it's just that when the whole virtual world is bigger we don't see those smaller groups as easily.

Indeed. And it's best that way. They have very little influence and where they might have been big fish in a little pond, they get absorbed and irrelevant and have less effect. Best.

[Luna Bliss]

20 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I assume for a metaverse we're talking VR.

From what I've seen proposed one can choose between Augmented Reality (AR) and full VR immersion. It would be the size of a pair of eyeglasses or even smaller, and one could do a click and head to full immersion or leave it partial where one could still interact with the world in a somewhat modified state (augmented).

[Ayashe Ninetails]

9 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

No. People taking responsibility for their own experience and reactions is the most important one, by using the tools they already have to manage their issues - and leaving platform staff out of it.

Ehhhh. Hop over to the Oculus Experiences site and read the reviews for Horizon Venues and Horizon Worlds. The same complaints over and over and over, typically. Kids are ruining this, everyone is so immature, I can't enjoy the show, children are screaming into their mics and trolling, etc. Apparently, the experiences adults are attempting to have are being interrupted by kids acting a whole fool (during events, concerts, etc.).

Staff doesn't seem to be doing much about it, or else maybe there wouldn't be so many negative reviews repeating the same complaints. I'm not sure what regular users could do in that instance, short of maybe blocking a large majority of the platform? How would they take responsibility exactly? I'm not sure how it works over there. Can they mute everyone disrupting a concert? 

All I know is it sounds like a hot mess (and makes me very glad SL doesn't have these issues). 

Moderation is a necessary evil - or else you're going to struggle getting people to stay interested in your product over the long-term (seriously, who wants to listen to kids screaming into mics all night?). Change that into adults trolling other adults (which also happens in plenty of online spaces) and it's not much more pleasant.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

From what I've seen proposed one can choose between Augmented Reality (AR) and full VR immersion. It would be the size of a pair of eyeglasses or even smaller, and one could do a click and head to full immersion or leave it partial where one could still interact with the world in a somewhat modified state (augmented).

I'd still be verrrrrrrrry surprised if millions signed on at once. You know me, I'm super skeptical about this stuff, lol.

If you could access the metaverse via phone, tablet, PC, console, in your car, smart TV, refrigerator, etc. at the push of a button - then maybe!

[Love Zhaoying]

30 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

No. People taking responsibility for their own experience and reactions is the most important one, by using the tools they already have to manage their issues - and leaving platform staff out of it.

That's what AR is.

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I'd still be verrrrrrrrry surprised if millions signed on at once. You know me, I'm super skeptical about this stuff, lol.

If you could access the metaverse via phone, tablet, PC, console, in your car, smart TV, refrigerator, etc. at the push of a button - then maybe!

I feel creepy feelings thinking of it -- everyone being plugged in all the time.  Too much control. Hyper-reality. 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Scylla Rhiadra]

21 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Moderation is a necessary evil - or else you're going to struggle getting people to stay interested in your product over the long-term (seriously, who wants to listen to kids screaming into mics all night?). Change that into adults trolling other adults (which also happens in plenty of online spaces) and it's not much more pleasant.

I'm always a bit leery about the "just mute, ignore, and move on" approach, for a wide number of reasons. For one thing, the damage has often already been done by the time that becomes an option. And not everyone is psychologically or emotionally equipped to deal with what might be thrown at them before they know that this is a person who should be muted.

 It can be also argued that no one should have to put up with that, and it shouldn't be MY responsibility, as the target, to hide from them.

And, of course, muting someone doesn't stop them: it just means I can't hear them insulting me or throwing slurs at me.

I could use the example of the person who was spamming this forum not so long ago with racist BS aimed, particularly, at one of our regular posters. Yeah, we could just "ignore" that person . . . until the next account is created, of course. And the next. And the next. Meanwhile, the forum is slowly buried under a tide of racist sewage.

Which is why there has to be a base level of civility demanded of everyone. And that's where moderation, and some form of "discipline" comes into play. It should be lightly applied and carefully handled, but . . .

An analogy here is of course the whole gun control thing. I find that those who think that the answer to violence is to carry your own gun are most usually those who are best armed. I'm not sure that's the kind of culture I want to move in.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra
Got rid of redundant sentence

[Coffee Pancake]

First person to get a real time hive mind up and running.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

First person to get a real time hive mind up and running.

Only if I get to choose whose mind I become privy to.

[Codex Alpha]

16 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Ehhhh. Hop over to the Oculus Experiences site and read the reviews for Horizon Venues and Horizon Worlds. The same complaints over and over and over, typically. Kids are ruining this, everyone is so immature, I can't enjoy the show, children are screaming into their mics and trolling, etc. Apparently, the experiences adults are attempting to have are being interrupted by kids acting a whole fool (during events, concerts, etc.).

Staff doesn't seem to be doing much about it, or else maybe there wouldn't be so many negative reviews repeating the same complaints. I'm not sure what regular users could do in that instance, short of maybe blocking a large majority of the platform? How would they take responsibility exactly? I'm not sure how it works over there. Can they mute everyone disrupting a concert? 

All I know is it sounds like a hot mess (and makes me very glad SL doesn't have these issues). 

Moderation is a necessary evil - or else you're going to struggle getting people to stay interested in your product over the long-term (seriously, who wants to listen to kids screaming into mics all night?). Change that into adults trolling other adults (which also happens in plenty of online spaces) and it's not much more pleasant.

Sounds amazing. And if screaming kids I just block them. Done. Next.

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm always a bit leery about the "just mute, ignore, and move on" approach, for a wide number of reasons. For one thing, the damage has often already been done by the time that becomes an option. And not everyone is psychologically or emotionally equipped to deal with what might be thrown at them before they know that this is a person who should be muted.

Sorry, don't buy it.

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes, if someone is throwing racist or sexist or homophobic crap at you, you can always mute them -- after they've thrown the racist or sexist or homophobic crap. It can be argued that no one should have to put up with that, and it shouldn't be MY responsibility, as the target, to hide from them.

But it happens, and nothing you will ever do will change that - ensuring everyone is 'civil' all the time and a 'safe space' for everyone will come at great cost to the majority's freedoms and dignities.

We've seen it demonstrated in real life the last 2 years. It will be worse in a virtual world who aims to make this their foremost goal.

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And, of course, muting someone doesn't stop them: it just means I can't hear them insulting me or throwing slurs at me.

It has the same effect. You're protected through your own volition, no need to get governance.

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I could use the example of the person who was spamming this forum not so long ago with racist BS aimed, particularly, at one of our regular posters. Yeah, we could just "ignore" that person . . . until the next account is created, of course. And the next. And the next. Meanwhile, the forum is slowly buried under a tide of racist sewage.

Which is why there has to be a base level of civility demanded of everyone. And that's where moderation, and some form of "discipline" comes into play. It should be lightly applied and carefully handled, but . . .

An analogy here is of course the whole gun control thing. I find that those who think that the answer to violence is to carry your own gun are most usually those who are best armed. I'm not sure that's the kind of culture I want to move in.

Well the other culture you propose is not one I want to move in. Now what?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Persephone Emerald]

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Edited June 3, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Persephone Emerald]

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The beginning of enlightenment comes when you step back and notice your irrational belief in impersonal forces...

Now you're starting to sound like an atheist.

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Well the other culture you propose is not one I want to move in. Now what?

Go live in a cave?

Seriously, we have to have some policing in society.  It's not always fair for sure...but it's worse without it.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Sorry, don't buy it.

I'm sorry, what aren't you buying? That having a racist or sexist or homophobic slur, to cite common and actually  reasonably mild instances, doesn't inflict damage? That not everyone, because of their own experiences, is well equipped to deal with toxic garbage?

You've heard of PTSD, right?

10 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

But it happens, and nothing you will ever do will change that - ensuring everyone is 'civil' all the time and a 'safe space' for everyone will come at great cost to the majority's freedoms and dignities.

We've seen it demonstrated in real life the last 2 years. It will be worse in a virtual world who aims to make this their foremost goal.

So, you're fighting for the right to be abusive? To attack people with slurs?

Because no one here, least of all me, is advocating that the right to express opinions be removed.

12 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

It has the same effect. You're protected through your own volition, no need to get governance.

It does not have the same effect. You can't seriously believe that abuse directed against you has no impact on you merely because you weren't there to hear it. Have you ever been in a community?

13 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Well the other culture you propose is not one I want to move in. Now what?

Well, you could always mute me, and move on?

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Only if I get to choose whose mind I become privy to.

Lots around here have minds like privies.

IJS..

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm sorry, what aren't you buying? That having a racist or sexist or homophobic slur, to cite common and actually  reasonably mild instances, doesn't inflict damage? That not everyone, because of their own experiences, is well equipped to deal with toxic garbage?

Interesting if so, since they said calling for someone to be fired is an act of violence.

[Persephone Emerald]

8 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

But no really - if the topic is about how to promote civility in a virtual world -

Then we're not doing a very good job of it on this forum.