LL Could Consider On-Demand Parcels/Worlds/Lands

[Prokofy Neva]

On 5/22/2022 at 2:44 AM, Mollymews said:

this could be fixed somewhat.  At the moment the viewer doesn't receive information about a banline til we are pretty close to it.  Coffee Catznip has talked about this quite a lot, about how it would be good for the viewer to get parcel access/banline info at the same time as it can get the other parcel information. Getting the information earlier would allow banline parcels to be shown on the minimap a whole lot sooner

and the user can set in viewer preferences, the distance to display banlines. The viewer still gets the info sooner. The display distance setting is local to the viewer

getting the info sooner would allow the jet pilot to better navigate the slalom. And if Linden do make vehicle bounce-off possible then like a slalom racer, the pilot just grazes the flag (tower of banline doom) then will be bounced a bit, able to recover at speed, slip past and carry on

would be kinda fun that. Racing across the sky, knowing that are never going to get shot out of the sky. And the towers of doom are visible from as far away as we prefer

Ban scripts should simply not work when they are 96 m away from Linden water or Linden protected land. So you can deploy a security script or even a no-access group only or list. But it fails to work on 96 periphery around your lot so that air and water travel is not hindered.

[Codex Alpha]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The Lindens have always rejected the "on-demand" model like Kitely because not only do they believe in a contiguous world for all kinds of reasons, their system is structured around that concept and it would create problems if you arbitrarily enabled the de-rendering of entire parcels or regions on demand -- not just content, but land.

Yes Kitely is quite closed and many times the servers that spin up the world don't even bother and don't work - or they're not accessible at an instant. This wouldn't be a problem though for those who want such privacy and 'to be left alone', as that is exactly what would happen - with an extra layer that when they're not there, they're not a burden on Kitely itself (running an empty world) but also negates the need for security measures that annoy other users.

These 'private parcels' would effectively be on their own instance, they're no longer actually in that mainland parcel. That mainland parcel is thus freed up for anyone else to use - with more 'open and contiguous'-friendly attitudes that you speak of - while the die hard 'stay off my lawn' types can enjoy their privacy elsewhere.

[Prokofy Neva]

18 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Yes Kitely is quite closed and many times the servers that spin up the world don't even bother and don't work - or they're not accessible at an instant. This wouldn't be a problem though for those who want such privacy and 'to be left alone', as that is exactly what would happen - with an extra layer that when they're not there, they're not a burden on Kitely itself (running an empty world) but also negates the need for security measures that annoy other users.

These 'private parcels' would effectively be on their own instance, they're no longer actually in that mainland parcel. That mainland parcel is thus freed up for anyone else to use - with more 'open and contiguous'-friendly attitudes that you speak of - while the die hard 'stay off my lawn' types can enjoy their privacy elsewhere.

So are you staying the plan is to create a Potemkin village, a Wild West storefront of my Mainland parcel that is open to fly through and just look at, but meanwhile I myself create a second instance of that lot which I lockdown and hide from view. 

No.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Actually, that figure is less now and more like 30% because of the growth of Bellisseria and the Linden campaigns to auction more abandoned land and give abandoned land to any takers. But you can go and get Tyche Shepherd's surveys.

My 70% was from the grid survey although not including Belli as the stats are several years old.  70% is less than what the actual numbers said.

If there's another grid survey out there, I'd appreciate a.link to it.

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

My 70% was from the grid survey although not including Belli as the stats are several years old.  70% is less than what the actual numbers said.

If there's another grid survey out there, I'd appreciate a.link to it.

Belli also isn't really "mainland", it's a gated community that connects to mainland

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

Belli also isn't really "mainland", it's a gated community that connects to mainland

I wonder if Horizons is included.  They do include the old Linden homes which AFAIK, aren't mainland either.  I wish we could get updated numbers.  

57% of Mainland owned directly by Linden Accounts (Contiguous Mainland is 6806 regions including Linden Home regions)

20.7% to 21.4% of Mainland by area is abandoned parcels

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I wonder if Horizons is included.  They do include the old Linden homes which AFAIK, aren't mainland either.  I wish we could get updated numbers.  

57% of Mainland owned directly by Linden Accounts (Contiguous Mainland is 6806 regions including Linden Home regions)

20.7% to 21.4% of Mainland by area is abandoned parcels

Horizons is pretty old so I would presume so.

In calculating mainland ownership, it should also be noted that certain bulk landowners hold huge swathes of it and while it is (mostly) for sale or rent, it's not really held by residents in the same way as a personally owned space.

Depending on continent, there is also plenty of land that's is held by landowners, with builds, that is not up for sale or rent, and is not actually resident owned in the common application of the term. Horizons is a microcosm for this practice.

[Codex Alpha]

56 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So are you staying the plan is to create a Potemkin village, a Wild West storefront of my Mainland parcel that is open to fly through and just look at, but meanwhile I myself create a second instance of that lot which I lockdown and hide from view. 

No.

Sorry I don't understand the use of Potemkin Village when talking about this, and no I never said anything about the Wild West, or allowing access to your property, just that if a parcel WERE instanced, it is no longer technically in that region grid. It is as I have presented it as - an 'instanced' world, much like a Kitely region is now, or as a Sansar world already works as. I was providing a theoretical answer as to how a parcel would be represented - as an 'instance' it would no longer be represented in the physical mainland, it would revert to open and available to others. It is not a second 'instance'. Your 'instance' removes you from the region altogether.

I'm still not so sure why people who want major privacy or to not be disturbed still want to reside on public-accessible lands - which will immediately and forever expose them to all sorts of variety types of users.. I'm just offering a real solution to that problem.

And also solves an issue I have with free flying and exploring.

You don't have to agree, and that is okay

Edited June 2, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Rowan Amore]

27 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

why people who want major privacy or to not be disturbed still want to reside on public-accessible lands

Because once the land is paid for, the only expense you have is your premium membership.

28 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

as an 'instance' it would no longer be represented in the physical mainland, it would revert to open and available to others

What would happen to those people using it as an 'open' space when you decide to turn it on?  Are they instantly banned and set home?  

[Codex Alpha]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Because once the land is paid for, the only expense you have is your premium membership.

What would happen to those people using it as an 'open' space when you decide to turn it on?  Are they instantly banned and set home?  

The mainland region and how it operates now remains. It remains open as it is now for people to purchase the parcel as they are today - except they are limited like in Belissaria as to what they can do - to maintain that relative openness.

Those who would pay/move to a private instance have nothing more to do with the region (which is a server), and moved to their own 'instance'. Completely unrelated to each other.

See Kitely to see how they spin up regions and others 'on demand' other than 'always on'.

See Sansar for how an individual world is an 'instance' of it's own.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

The mainland region and how it operates now remains. It remains open as it is now for people to purchase the parcel as they are today - except they are limited like in Belissaria as to what they can do - to maintain that relative openness.

Those who would pay/move to a private instance have nothing more to do with the region (which is a server), and moved to their own 'instance'. Completely unrelated to each other.

See Kitely to see how they spin up regions and others 'on demand' other than 'always on'.

See Sansar for how an individual world is an 'instance' of it's own.

So, instead of having all the privacy I need on Mainland using my orb and parcel options, I have to pay extra somewhere else?  Basically, a private region.  They already have those.   Which I've rented before.  Weekly/Monthly.  No thank you.  Anything that would involve more work for LL is going to cost more than FREE on your purchased mainland plot.

Maybe you'd do better staying on Kitely since it's exactly what you want?

 

 

[Codex Alpha]

11 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So, instead of having all the privacy I need on Mainland using my orb and parcel options, I have to pay extra somewhere else?  Basically, a private region.  They already have those.   Which I've rented before.  Weekly/Monthly.  No thank you.  Anything that would involve more work for LL is going to cost more than FREE on your purchased mainland plot.

Maybe not. One could argue it costs LL less to run your parcel (which one may want 100% private and free from visitors and griefers) and could be part of a Premium plus package.

And yes, more features outside the norm will cost more money, but it is a solution for those who are apparently besought and besieged by people they never want to see, and can't get the 100% privacy they need without affecting the user experience of others around them in the process.

If the counterargument is "I know it makes sense, and I would get the privacy I  want and need - but I just don't want to pay extra for it" while being in a publicly accessible area - well then that's kind of revealing, don't you think?

If the argument is "I would like private land away from everyone else that might bother me, but it's too expensive", then we work for solutions to that.

[Gabriele Graves]

24 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

If the argument is "I would like private land away from everyone else that might bother me, but it's too expensive", then we work for solutions to that.

That's the point though, that isn't the argument and it seems pretty clear that you don't really understand this.  It's looking pretty willful at this point.  Many of the people you are referring to are exactly where they want to be and wouldn't want to move to equivalent land on a private island even if it were free for a variety of reasons.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Rowan Amore]

21 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Maybe not. One could argue it costs LL less to run your parcel (which one may want 100% private and free from visitors and griefers) and could be part of a Premium plus package.

And yes, more features outside the norm will cost more money, but it is a solution for those who are apparently besought and besieged by people they never want to see, and can't get the 100% privacy they need without affecting the user experience of others around them in the process.

If the counterargument is "I know it makes sense, and I would get the privacy I  want and need - but I just don't want to pay extra for it" while being in a publicly accessible area - well then that's kind of revealing, don't you think?

If the argument is "I would like private land away from everyone else that might bother me, but it's too expensive", then we work for solutions to that.

I know this all goes back to your hating 0 second orbs.  We all get it.  The thing is, MOST of the people who want that much privacy already do so on private estates.  Did you pay attention to the stats on how low a percentage of residents own mainland?   That you've encountered or anyone has encountered SO MANY zero orbs is quite frankly, hard to believe. You're either very unlucky or people see you coming and switch it on.  😁

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

That's the point though, that isn't the argument and it seems pretty clear that you don't really understand this.  It's looking pretty willful at this point.  Many of the people you are referring to are exactly where they want to be and wouldn't want to move to equivalent land on a private island even if it were free for a variety of reasons.

I absolutely love my corner lot on Horizons.  I'm not sure I'd be able to find as nice a spot on the other continents although I haven't really looked.  I have been traveling around more recently (the last 2 years) and I have yet to encounter one orb that booted me home.  I've accidentally run into 2 parcels.  One was 15 sec and the other 30.  More than adequate for me to move along.

It's been fun seeing what people create.  Some great, some not so great.  Wandering around seeing even more vast areas of nothingness?  Not very appealing to travelers.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I know this all goes back to your hating 0 second orbs.  We all get it.  The thing is, MOST of the people who want that much privacy already do so on private estates.  Did you pay attention to the stats on how low a percentage of residents own mainland?   That you've encountered or anyone has encountered SO MANY zero orbs is quite frankly, hard to believe. You're either very unlucky or people see you coming and switch it on.  😁

Can we make a new rule, every thread can-or-must be about "0 second orbs"?  That way they can't be reported for being off-topic!

[Gabriele Graves]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I absolutely love my corner lot on Horizons.  I'm not sure I'd be able to find as nice a spot on the other continents although I haven't really looked.  I have been traveling around more recently (the last 2 years) and I have yet to encounter one orb that booted me home.  I've accidentally run into 2 parcels.  One was 15 sec and the other 30.  More than adequate for me to move along.

It's been fun seeing what people create.  Some great, some not so great.  Wandering around seeing even more vast areas of nothingness?  Not very appealing to travelers.

I'm the same, I love mainland and always have just the way it is, good and bad.  Sure there are things I wish people wouldn't do, that happens anywhere you go to some degree.

I'm on Nautilus City and I wouldn't swap for the world.

I've never had a great deal of problems flying, sailing and driving vehicles except for when you hit a poorly performing region which is a much bigger problem.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I'm the same, I love mainland and always have just the way it is, good and bad.  Sure there are things I wish people wouldn't do, that happens anywhere you go to some degree.

I'm on Nautilus City and I wouldn't swap for the world.

I've never had a great deal of problems flying, sailing and driving vehicles except for when you hit a poorly performing region which is a much bigger problem.

I used to want to want to nab a plot on the old mainland that was my "hangout" area with friends (Luna, a region or 2 away from our rez place - Ahern, I think). But, all the parcels seemed permanently used. Probably legacy users who got "forever" plots.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I used to want to want to nab a plot on the old mainland that was my "hangout" area with friends (Luna, a region or 2 away from our rez place - Ahern, I think). But, all the parcels seemed permanently used. Probably legacy users who got "forever" plots.

I know the area well, I suspect you are correct as nothing in that immediately vicinity becomes available as far as I can tell either.

[Rowan Amore]

46 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

"I know it makes sense, and I would get the privacy I  want and need - but I just don't want to pay extra for it" while being in a publicly accessible area - well then that's kind of revealing, don't you think?

There are people who.love the hustle and bustle of big cities in RL.  They still put a lock on the door and close the curtains when they want privacy.  Same goes for SL.  We can't 'lock the door and close the blinds' per se but we do have parcel options and orbs to achieve the same effect.  

Instead of ranting about orbs and instant on, why not ask LL to make banlines less of an eyesore and to be extended upward?

[Coffee Pancake]

5 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

why not ask LL to make banlines less of an eyesore 

We've been messing with some ideas for nicer looking banlines in Catznip .. probably going to need to do 2 sets with different rendering behaviors, which punted the project behind all the more important pressing work

One subtle for people who just don't want to see them, and one super crazy obvious for "explorers" to avoid, maybe we can get the viewer to make an educated guess about which to show when

[Rowan Amore]

25 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We've been messing with some ideas for nicer looking banlines in Catznip .. probably going to need to do 2 sets with different rendering behaviors, which punted the project behind all the more important pressing work

One subtle for people who just don't want to see them, and one super crazy obvious for "explorers" to avoid, maybe we can get the viewer to make an educated guess about which to show when

I have them turned off.  I don't wandering off-road that often but if I do and bump into one, no harm done.  I think @Silent Mistwalkersuggested a fence looking banline.  Anything besides the crime scene tape look would have to be better.

[Mollymews]

13 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Ban scripts should simply not work when they are 96 m away from Linden water or Linden protected land. So you can deploy a security script or even a no-access group only or list. But it fails to work on 96 periphery around your lot so that air and water travel is not hindered.

thats a lot of space to give over to travelers.  96 meters each side of the road center line is 192 meters

it might be simpler to nerf llTeleportHome (via region control) on any region that has a public road

as a region control, private estates owners could them also nerf it if they wanted for their regions. And I think that if this was possible then Linden would turn it on (nerf) on the Belli estate

alternatively for mainland, Linden could widen the roads to say a minimum of 32 meters. Doing it progressively as and when land along the roads are abandoned. 32 meters is pretty wide and would not pose much of a challenge to keeping our avatar on the road, either self or on a vehicle

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I have them turned off.  I don't wandering off-road that often but if I do and bump into one, no harm done.  I think @Silent Mistwalkersuggested a fence looking banline.  Anything besides the crime scene tape look would have to be better.

This what you mean?

 

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

This what you mean?

 

Exactly!  And a brilliant idea.  I've often wondered why they continue to be so darn ugly.