And the Theme for SLB 19 is . . . Steampunk????

[Silent Mistwalker]

29 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Steampunk certainly isn't as 'in' as it was 10 years ago, but whilst TV and film probably could have been a very strong platform for storytelling in a Steampunk setting, there were precious few TV shows or films actually made during the heyday of Steampunk that were worthwhile. 

   It also doesn't help that some people put films like Sucker Punch and The City of Lost Children on the high end of 'best Steampunk movies' lists. Sucker Punch has one segment that is Dieselpunk, there's really nothing Steampunk about it - The City of Lost Children is entirely Dieselpunk. 

   And yeah. I'll go right ahead an be that picky. It's about as accurate as saying that 'Gladiator is the best film ever, set in the medieval period!'. 

 

It's worse. Someone did a remake of The Secret Garden as steampunk. I refuse to watch it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7334352/

Edited March 21, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Orwar]

13 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

It's worse. Someone did a remake of The Secret Garden as steampunk. I refuse to watch it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7334352/

   Yeah .. Let's glue some gears on it, indeed.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

It's worse. Someone did a remake of The Secret Garden as steampunk. I refuse to watch it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7334352/

OMG, that looks appalling. In literally every possible way.

I need to forget I ever knew it existed.

[Luna Bliss]

I found some steampunk feminist art....

[Madelaine McMasters]

On 3/18/2022 at 8:04 PM, Orwar said:

On 3/18/2022 at 5:25 PM, Madelaine McMasters said:

While history buffs might see Steampunk as Eurocentric, I imagine many enthusiasts understand it as just trendy retro-futurism.

   The problem with that explanation is that Steampunk isn't an accurate retelling of history, it's retro-futuristic science fiction which focuses on the 'age of steam', and yes, that historically started in Britain (although if I'm to be nit-picky again, James Watts didn't invent the steam engine, the ancient Greeks knew that steam = pressure = power, but they didn't find any practical applications for it like the British did centuries later - in fact James Watts didn't invent the modern era steam engine either; steam engines were used for powering drainage pumps throughout the 18th century and roughly half the 17th century, James Watt's inventions included pieces which made the engines much more effective, such as the Centrifugal Governor, invented in 1744 - a piece of tech we still use to this day. Also, James Watt died in 1819, the Victorian era doesn't begin until 1838, so he was not 'Victorian'). 

   .. That's one big parenthesis. Anyway, yes, Steampunk is a form of science fiction, it does not by any means have to include Britain or British culture or any of the political or religious beliefs of the British of the time; there's Steampunk fiction set in ancient Egypt wherein the power of steam was harnessed to build even more and bigger pyramids and temples (with cogs on 'em!). The claim that Steampunk must include any British/Victorian stuff, or at all even be set on our own planet, is as ludicrous as claiming that any fiction featuring a bicycle must be set in Scotland. 

I never said Steampunk was an accurate retelling of history. I said many understand it as retrofuturism. I also didn't say James Watt invented the steam engine (Hero's parlor toy didn't usher in an industrial revolution). I said that his steam engine was invented in Victorian England. That Watt died four months before the start of the Victorian Era is hardly consequential. It's not like Queen Victoria set out a "Pardon My Dust" sign on the eve of her ascension and pulled the tarp off the following morning to reveal her new and improved Era. By the time the British Empire began pushing steam powered industry out to the colonies, the pushers were recognizably Victorian.

The Iron Duke, Japan's first steam train, was introduced 1868 by Thomas Glover of Scotland, who became one of Japan's top industrialists. Here's his family...

His wife, Yamamura Tsuru, is in the center, wearing a Victorian dress. To be fair, cultural exchange is an exchange, and Japan certainly had influence on Europe at that time.

I didn't think Glover would be an isolated example, so I went Googling. Following are the "search strings" I used to locate the subsequent images. I picked only images showing trains and people. Those shown here are the first such results returned.

"china's first train"

Look at the people in the crowd. Look at the people in the train. Does Steampunk tell that story?

"india's first train"

"egypt's first train"

"new zealand's first train"

It seems you can’t swing a dead cat through the world’s history of steam trains without hitting a top hat or a bustle. If virtually every culture with exposure on the world stage today has Victorian steam imagery in its history, what does something like "Japanese inspired Steampunk" actually mean?

I also never mentioned Steampunk requiring or depicting any particular political, economic, or religious ideology. When I look for a Steampunk outfit, I don't wonder if it represents Communism, Capitalism, or Christianity, I want it to complement my Victorian pocket watch. Similarly, when I look for a Steampunk airship, I want absurd, impossible juxtaposition, like one of riveted cast iron, powered by squirrels wearing goggles. But, I think I'm part of the problem that Scylla identified. While Steampunk doesn't require any particular ideology, it represents Eurocentric nostalgia for a dreamy future that never arrived.

I think your example of Egyptian steampunk actually illustrates this. I'd not heard of it, so went looking. That search bumped me into Archeopunk, which is a broader version of Steampunk that transplants futuristic technologies (often alien) into ancient civilizations. Arkworld Comics are listed as a prime example of the Genre. Here's a paragraph from Screenrant.com describing Egyptian Steampunk:

For example, the people in ArkWorld still believe in Gods (though the Gods have apparently abandoned them), have Egyptian names, wear ancient Egyptian-styled jewelry, call adults their elders and attend to cats with unnaturally pointy ears and massive, protruding fangs like bobcats. But these same people use technology that would not be out of place in a sci-fi comic, though most of their designs are deeply rooted in ancient Egyptian culture, like pyramid-shaped alarm clocks, an electricity power system called the Pyramid System, so-called comms that look like ATMs but display Egyptian runes, old Egyptian-styled temples that can float in mid-air, and flying vessels (though half the world apparently still travels in wooden boats).

I’ve highlighted, in red, a phrase I find revealing. Only the designs are deeply rooted in ancient Egyptian culture? What about their actual culture and their dreams for the future? I think this is an admission that Archeopunk is a coat of paint over an underlying Eurocentric, or at least Western faux nostalgia. Do we really think that ancient Egyptians wanted more and better pyramids for their dead despots, or temples for their absent gods? Could this be unwitting condescension for an ancient culture we've only seen depicted in movies?

The more I dig into this, the more I realize that Scylla’s concern over the Eurocentrism of Steampunk is well placed. As I said in my previous post, I'd be happy for LL to use retrofuturism, or faux nostalgia as a theme, in the hope that I'd see something other than steamed cooked Western-Industrialism wrapped in another culture's bun.

As an official theme, or even a suggestion, my biggest complaint about Steampunk is that it simply doesn't invite the kind of exploration I'd like to see. Been there, done that. It could be worse though. They could have asked me for a theme.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Luna Bliss]

This is a must-see movie, Hugo, and while not technically Steampunk it is referenced by some Steampunk journals.  I saw it several years ago and until then I can't say I really understood the fascination with machines, gears, and the like. But this movie changed my perception.  Very well done, nominated for 11 academy awards and winning 5:

https://www.imdb.com/video/vi2280168473?playlistId=tt0970179&ref_=vp_rv_2

[Madelaine McMasters]

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This is a must-see movie, Hugo, and while not technically Steampunk it is referenced by some Steampunk journals.  I saw it several years ago and until then I can't say I really understood the fascination with machines, gears, and the like. But this movie changed my perception.  Very well done, nominated for 11 academy awards and winning 5:

https://www.imdb.com/video/vi2280168473?playlistId=tt0970179&ref_=vp_rv_2

I loved that movie and marveled at Scorcese's long, unbroken, tracking shots.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Rufferta]

I like Steampunk, but unfortunately some people think 'steampunk' just means 'stick a gear on it'. 

There has been speculation that a future Bellisserian theme could be 'steampunk'. If so, I hope they remember to include volcanos, geysers, fumaroles, and hot springs in the landscaping.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Rufferta

[Orwar]

4 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I said that his steam engine was invented in Victorian England. That Watt died four months before the start of the Victorian Era is hardly consequential.

   4 months, plus 18 years. 

7 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

what does something like "Japanese inspired Steampunk" actually mean?

   It could probably mean just about anything, really. Could be 17th century samurai setting off in an adventure in a steam powered airship to chase a dragon. Quite possibly a steam-powered mecha-dragon. Or sky pirates. Or birds. Top hats really are optional - popular, yes, but optional. 

21 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The more I dig into this, the more I realize that Scylla’s concern over the Eurocentrism of Steampunk is well placed.

   It really isn't. The world ain't flat because there are people believing it to be so, nor is this particular thesis correct because of some self-proclaimed annoyingly political person says it is. It's really not difficult to conjure up problems where there are none, when you want to project and assert a political delusio-- Ahem, ideology.

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

This is a must-see movie, Hugo, and while not technically Steampunk it is referenced by some Steampunk journals.  I saw it several years ago and until then I can't say I really understood the fascination with machines, gears, and the like. But this movie changed my perception.  Very well done, nominated for 11 academy awards and winning 5:

https://www.imdb.com/video/vi2280168473?playlistId=tt0970179&ref_=vp_rv_2

Well, put yourself in 19th century shoes and then see if you'd be fascinated by machines, gears and the like. This is, I think, the heart of retro futurism. We feel nostalgia for the wide eyed optimism of that age (as seen in print advertisements ;-), and the fanciful future they imagined, but never realized. Over a century later, we know how their future panned out.

There are less optimistic views of the future from long ago. My favorite is Metropolis.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Madelaine McMasters]

4 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   4 months, plus 18 years.  

4 months.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Victorian-era

[Madelaine McMasters]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:38 PM, Orwar said:

go educate yourself! 

Okay!

On 3/18/2022 at 3:19 PM, Catrie said:

You clearly haven't been exposed to enough Steampunk if you think all of it consists of Victorian England/Western Europe. 

Here are only a few examples of other styles of Steampunk.   That took me literally 5 minutes to look up. (Thanks Pinterest).  That you put Steampunk in such a small box says more about your lack of understanding about it, than anything else. 

Google "african warriors 1800s", then "british warriors 1800s" and tell me which influence is most present in the black man's attire. Do the same for "women in africa 1800s" and "women in britain 1800s". Do you see any african women wearing anything as impractical as a corset? Do you see many British women who aren't?

Google "women in india 1800s", you'll find they also had the good sense to avoid corsetry (as did most British women, btw).

The example of Japanese steampunk you found is of a Caucasian woman wearing what seems to be a renaissance faire outfit and Steampunk monocle while holding a Japanese parasol. She's at Comicon London.

Next time, take 6 minutes?

The movie "Black Panther" took a much more considered approach to African retro-futurism.

[Madelaine McMasters]

I shall imagine a retro-future in which I've learned how to edit a post.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Madelaine McMasters]

30 minutes ago, Orwar said:

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The more I dig into this, the more I realize that Scylla’s concern over the Eurocentrism of Steampunk is well placed.

   It really isn't. The world ain't flat because there are people believing it to be so, nor is this particular thesis correct because of some self-proclaimed annoyingly political person says it is. It's really not difficult to conjure up problems where there are none, when you want to project and assert a political delusio-- Ahem, ideology.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that a bookbinder would judge a book by its cover.

That's actually probably appropriate for the eye candy show that SLB is.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

what does something like "Japanese inspired Steampunk" actually mean?

Probably something like this...

Steampunk Gundam

[Madelaine McMasters]

7 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Probably something like this...

Steampunk Gundam

This I get. I see more Godzilla than gears. So is that really Steampunk?

Isn't Godzilla more an expression of post nuclear Japanese angst than Victorian colonial optimism?

This is the sort of alternate viewpoint I'd hope to see from retro-futurism.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

   4 months, plus 18 years. 

   It could probably mean just about anything, really. Could be 17th century samurai setting off in an adventure in a steam powered airship to chase a dragon. Quite possibly a steam-powered mecha-dragon. Or sky pirates. Or birds. Top hats really are optional - popular, yes, but optional. 

   It really isn't. The world ain't flat because there are people believing it to be so, nor is this particular thesis correct because of some self-proclaimed annoyingly political person says it is. It's really not difficult to conjure up problems where there are none, when you want to project and assert a political delusio-- Ahem, ideology.

The problem is that when something is overdone to the point of ad nauseum, people start poking holes in it and maybe looking at the reality of it rather than the nostalgic and romanticized fairy tale imagined. Realities like how the start of the industrial age having been done on the back of child labourers, to produce a wealth of products to the elites at less than slave labour prices. Industrialized cities with billowing smoke stacks spreading pollution and toxic waste far and wide and forever changing the culture to a greedy grasping consumerism through the labour of workers having to live close by in dirty squalid conditions.

Are we not now reaping the rewards of that steam industrialization with the need to heavily curtail our uses of those very energy sources that are leading to ecological disasters and climatic changes worldwide? Why would we continue to romanticize such a thing? A better theme would have been something like alternative and sustainable energies to keep our world turning rather than waxing nostalgic over a fantasized bygone era .

Edited March 21, 2022 by Arielle Popstar
spelling

[Scylla Rhiadra]

36 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The problem is that when something is overdone to the point of ad nauseum, people start poking holes in it and maybe looking at the reality of it rather than the nostalgic and romanticized fairy tale imagined. Realities like how the start of the industrial age having been done on the back of child labourers, to produce a wealth of products to the elites at less than slave labour prices. Industrialized cities with billowing smoke stacks spreading pollution and toxic waste far and wide and forever changing the culture to a greedy grasping consumerism through the labour of workers having to live close by in dirty squalid conditions.

Are we not now reaping the rewards of that steam industrialization with the need to heavily curtail our uses of those very energy sources that are leading to ecological disasters and climatic changes worldwide? Why would we continue to romanticize such a thing? A better theme would have been something like alternative and sustainable energies to keep our world turning rather than waxing nostalgic over a fantasized bygone era .

Wow. Yes.

Arguably, nostalgia for any historical period is at least liable to gloss over the ugly. The good stuff -- the stuff that makes you think critically -- doesn't elide the ugly, or the degree to which that nastiness is still reflected in the period's continuing legacy, but uses it to problematize and compel critical thinking about it.

I think some Steampunk does that. But personally, I don't have a lot of time for literature or popular culture that views any period -- Victorian, Ancient Roman, the 50s -- through shiny rose-coloured glasses.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Wow. Yes.

Arguably, nostalgia for any historical period is at least liable to gloss over the ugly. The good stuff -- the stuff that makes you think critically -- doesn't elide the ugly, or the degree to which that nastiness is still reflected in the period's continuing legacy, but uses it to problematize and compel critical thinking about it.

I think some Steampunk does that. But personally, I don't have a lot of time for literature or popular culture that views any period -- Victorian, Ancient Roman, the 50s -- through shiny rose-coloured glasses.

You'd hate living on a rez.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

This I get. I see more Godzilla than gears. So is that really Steampunk?

Isn't Godzilla more an expression of post nuclear Japanese angst than Victorian colonial optimism?

This is the sort of alternate viewpoint I'd hope to see from retro-futurism.

It's actually a Gundam rather than Godzilla, they're gigantic manned robots (mecha) featured in the hit japanese show Mobile Suit Gundam which has been a hugely successful billion dollar franchise over the last few decades.  Being mechanical in nature they're a popular subject for steampunk crossovers, this one isn't actually too bad and has some nice details to it, I especially like all the springs, pressure gauges and clockwork.

It's definitely a lot more detailed and convincing than the average "steampunk dalek" 😄

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Wow. Yes.

Arguably, nostalgia for any historical period is at least liable to gloss over the ugly. The good stuff -- the stuff that makes you think critically -- doesn't elide the ugly, or the degree to which that nastiness is still reflected in the period's continuing legacy, but uses it to problematize and compel critical thinking about it.

I think some Steampunk does that. But personally, I don't have a lot of time for literature or popular culture that views any period -- Victorian, Ancient Roman, the 50s -- through shiny rose-coloured glasses.

A lot of "steampunk" is just a reimagining of pop culture from other genres to fit the steampunk aesthetic, I very much doubt that the majority of steampunk enthusiasts are advocating for a return to Victorian values or in any way trying to romanticize the society of that era, they just like the aesthetic.

Neal Stephenson (author of Snow Crash and originator of the term "metaverse") wrote a book called The Diamond Age in which a group known as Neo-Victorians feature prominently.  It covers themes like ethnicity, social class systems and education and while not strictly steampunk does have some interesting gadgets such as "the chevaline (a mechanical horse that can fold up and is light enough to be carried one-handed)".

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Orwar said:

The world ain't flat because there are people believing it to be so, nor is this particular thesis correct because of some self-proclaimed annoyingly political person says it is. It's really not difficult to conjure up problems where there are none, when you want to project and assert a political delusio-- Ahem, ideology.

I'm going to respond to this just because it's very obviously about me. And then, I'm going to leave this alone because, honestly, this thread isn't about "me," and I can't imagine anything more boring to everyone else here than a discussion about my political principles. It makes even me bored thinking about it, in fact.

What's sort of interesting is that the statement which seems to have caused so much offense wasn't really intended to be "political" in any sense at all. Here's what I actually said, the important bit bolded (although the other bits have a bearing on it as well):

On 3/18/2022 at 3:05 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes. Unless you're not into Victoriana, science fiction, the gothic, Eurocentric themes, or role play at all.

In terms of diversity and inclusivity of its roleplayers? -- well, I'm absolutely sure that Steampunk is very open and welcoming to participants from a wide variety of backgrounds and identities. I'm sure there's a "gay Steampunk," a "women's Steampunk," and maybe even a "trans Steampunk." And that's great.

I listed five characteristics of Steampunk in Second Life (which is, after all, what we are talking about), of which "Eurocentric themes" is just one. It's strikes me as self-evident that if at least one or two of these things isn't something that interests you, you're going to be much less interested in Steampunk.

Please note: Eurocentric themes. The only time I've said anything about colonialism or imperialism has been to note that I didn't say anything about colonialism or imperialism. I literally meant -- if European culture and history isn't your bag (maybe you're into Japanese, or Indian, or Zulu, or Mayan instead), you're going to be less interested in this. Just as someone who doesn't much care about history or science fiction is going to be less interested.

I am honestly bemused by how "ideology" got introduced into this. It is, to repeat, not embedded in my comment -- unless Victoriana, science fiction, the gothic and role play are also "political" and ideological?

Reading ideology into my comments seems to me a bit perverse. And, perhaps, makes me wonder about who is really being "political" here.

Anyway, that's done. It's been a snoozefest. Let's talk about Steampunk by all means: I've found it a really interesting subject. Me, on the other hand? Meh. Zzzzzzz

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

A lot of "steampunk" is just a reimagining of pop culture from other genres to fit the steampunk aesthetic, I very much doubt that the majority of steampunk enthusiasts are advocating for a return to Victorian values or in any way trying to romanticize the society of that era, they just like the aesthetic.

I'm sure. I haven't really argued that it is.

From what I've read -- and I've been digging into this a bit -- there is some Steampunk that addresses the sorts of issues that Arielle raised, and some that doesn't.

I do understand the sheer joy that can be found in an uncomplicated indulgence in the "cool" aesthetic of something -- I love the 17th century myself, and revel in the literature, the music, and the aesthetic of that. I don't always need to be reminding myself of the English Civil War, the beginnings of British Imperialism, etc., etc. Sometimes . . . I just enjoy it for what it is.

But in terms of literature or art or movies, or something more complex, I'd want to see those elements also accounted for, if only because I'm less interested in escapism (which is what pure nostalgia really is) than I am in being made to think?

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But in terms of literature or art or movies, or something more complex, I'd want to see those elements also accounted for, if only because I'm less interested in escapism (which is what pure nostalgia really is) than I am in being made to think?

I think you're more likely to find those elements covered in literature than you are in art or movies, simply because for a lot of people the appeal of steampunk is in its whimsy and seeing familiar things reimagined with a liberal sprinkling of gears and rivets, so any visual medium will probably lean more in that direction.

[Silent Mistwalker]

57 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Mayan instead)

https://www.google.com/search?q=mayan+steampunk&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLjL--wtj2AhWVJTQIHQYBB4gQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1920&bih=937&dpr=1

oops

[Scylla Rhiadra]

41 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I think you're more likely to find those elements covered in literature than you are in art or movies, simply because for a lot of people the appeal of steampunk is in its whimsy and seeing familiar things reimagined with a liberal sprinkling of gears and rivets, so any visual medium will probably lean more in that direction.

I'm totally into whimsy. That's its appeal for me, insofar as I have one.

In the instance of Miyazaki, his obvious delight in whimsical and gadgety flying machines is infectious.