Sizing parcels for a mainland community

[Mollymews]

what has happened recently with Campbell Coast has happened before with other mainland communities. Chilbo just to name one. The community begins to attract people and grows quickly. The community elders keep acquiring community tiered land to extend the easements and pathways network

in the beginning enthusiastic community members contribute tier for the easements. After a time as the parcels change hands, less and less numbers of new parcel owners contribute toward the cost of the easement running alongside their parcel. Eventually as time goes by, only one or few of the original enthusiastic people carry the easement tier load. Right up until they can't

the question is: What is the main obstacle for the new parcel owners joining the community  ?

the main obstacle for the new parcel owners is that they don't have the tier to contribute even tho they would like too,  to maintain the easement in front of their property

the community elders didn't allow for this when they cut the parcels. They cut the parcels at 512, 1024, 2048. The size of which is such that the parcel owner can't contribute tier, even tho they want too, when they are on a budget. A budget is what most people who join communities have

so the elders should cut the parcels at 448, 896, 1792. This leaves the owner 64, 128, 256 tier spare to contribute toward the 4 meter wide easement in front of their property. Which community members will do because they can while able to stay within their budget

will this work for every new parcel owner ? No. But it will for all those who want to make a contribution and are enabled to do so (thru tier-friendly parcel sizing) by the community elders

[Mollymews]

next

leveling up on the 4 meter easement to wider community spaces

4 meters on one side only is pretty skinny for a public access right-of-way easement. But it does provide the skeleton bones of the community network, which can be more easily afforded by those on a budget, due to parcel sizing

so how does the community get larger public access spaces ?  This is what Chilbo got right.  Larger public spaces come from largesse.  A person has a parcel. They put a part of their parcel (or all of it) to a public community purpose. A public purpose which they pay for, and over which they retain parcel ownership. A public space given to the community which the parcel owner pays for themselves thru their largesse

and should this largesse be rescinded or the parcel sold off then the community easement bone running alongside that parcel remains

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Mollymews
sizing bones

[Rabid Cheetah]

WHY?  WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS HAVE TO BLAME EVERYTHING ON THE LARGE GEESE?

 

 

15 hours ago, Mollymews said:

 largesse

 

Oh.

Nevermind.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Rabid Cheetah

[Polenth Yue]

Chilbo didn't stop being active because of tier issues or parcel size. The build is still there and you can still visit. Somebody is paying for it. But simply being there does not make it an active community.

One day, only two people turned up to the town hall meeting. Me and someone who was new to the community. I found out later that the core of the people running things had decided to leave for other grids, but rather than leave a message, they just didn't turn up. This is the main problem. The community will only stay active as long as there are active leaders. This sets the maximum life of the community.

The biggest problem to solve is to find a way to spread the organisation so it doesn't rely so much on one or a few people. You don't want people who are too connected to each other (like a group of friends deciding to start a community), because they'll all leave at once.

[Prokofy Neva]

20 hours ago, Mollymews said:

what has happened recently with Campbell Coast has happened before with other mainland communities. Chilbo just to name one. The community begins to attract people and grows quickly. The community elders keep acquiring community tiered land to extend the easements and pathways network

in the beginning enthusiastic community members contribute tier for the easements. After a time as the parcels change hands, less and less numbers of new parcel owners contribute toward the cost of the easement running alongside their parcel. Eventually as time goes by, only one or few of the original enthusiastic people carry the easement tier load. Right up until they can't

the question is: What is the main obstacle for the new parcel owners joining the community  ?

the main obstacle for the new parcel owners is that they don't have the tier to contribute even tho they would like too,  to maintain the easement in front of their property

the community elders didn't allow for this when they cut the parcels. They cut the parcels at 512, 1024, 2048. The size of which is such that the parcel owner can't contribute tier, even tho they want too, when they are on a budget. A budget is what most people who join communities have

so the elders should cut the parcels at 448, 896, 1792. This leaves the owner 64, 128, 256 tier spare to contribute toward the 4 meter wide easement in front of their property. Which community members will do because they can while able to stay within their budget

will this work for every new parcel owner ? No. But it will for all those who want to make a contribution and are enabled to do so (thru tier-friendly parcel sizing) by the community elders

Solution: don't have easements and artificial roads running through your community. I never have. Why would you need them? What for? 

Instead, you have a rule that when people build, they have to step back 16 or preferably 32 m from their property line. I've been taken to task for this rule by Qie and others over the yars but that's because...I'm not going to tier empty land to keep tenants from fighting each other. 

I also don't allow flat board trees, fences, big picture boards and other uglies; you can only have 3D trees or a 3D hedge. With "avatars can see me" not checked, you are invisible. It doesn't get better than that; you don't need giant picture boards, easements of 32 m or 64 m width etc. This is also trying to a certain type of avatar who feels they "need" these privacy devices -- which you can cam around anyway. 

But truly, unless those easements are the way you give extra prims per parcel, what on earth are you putting them for? And if that's your plan, you can do that with a pond or a park or the sea coast underwater instead of creating future nuisances to the sale of your land.

I was astounded at seeing all those affordances and easements go to sale in CC. WHAT were they thinking? One solution would have been to contact all the owners -- there are not that many -- essentially, the SUPPORTERS who bought their land when they began to have trouble tiering the 6 sims -- and say, "Hey, would you like to buy 128 m of land next to you for $1/m?" Yes it's a chore, a tier date was obviously looming, but whatever, these people tiered your view for you, kept your community viable, why not have the decency?

Putting such miles of snakes to sale on the open market -- and in such big chunks like 12,000 just invited disaster. What did they think, some Medici was going to come along and say, "Hey, I will tier 12,000 meters of road in this lovely place just because that's the kind of guy I am".

I bought 1536 of road in Durdane by my rentals for US $6.14 from the Lindens AFTER it was abandoned, so as 1) not fuel land barons' griefing to make a sale 2) not have to request said land barons to chop up just my piece and then leave even smaller chunks to be griefed with. It will cost US $4.00 per month to tier. I sometimes wish that everything in SL had its true dollar cost so that people grasped what things cost. But it doesn't to keep this illusion going that we are all millionaires with "thousands" to burn on clothes and partying.To have a nice road to drive down behind your CC rentals office so you can view the offerings and see the activities cost me US $10 just now, guys. I should have just put my glowing "Power to the People" atomic station on it instead.

Why did I do this insane thing? Because now all my tenants fled, which you tend to do when first you see roads go for sale; then you see them abandoned and all their pavement/trees blown off leaving a big muddy rocky trail. As I've been saying, this is like Pleasantville, after Anthony Fremont in the Twilight Zone episode, "It's a Good Life".

Was this extra insane of me to throw good money after bad? Other more sensible business people dumped their land or sold back to the baron for 0.2/m because this is not going to "get better". But, hope triumphs over experience.

Even so, this idea of making little squares around your land like a New England town where Robert Frost type old stone walls still stand between parcels -- it's for the birds. You don't need this. This is not real life where exit uphill from a 100 acre parcel in a valley (true story) depends on the good will of a neighbour to allow you the easement of crossing her 10 acre parcel for a few yards to get to the road, where the county also has easements for you to cross where they might or might not put up telephone poles. Sure, that neighbour can and will park her double-wide across your tiny bit of exit space and you can't drive over the county's rocky, pot-holed filled gulch in winter especially. So you ruin your tires driving 100 yards across a former potato field to Mel's, who will let you cross, but in exchange, you have to let him harvest some of your apple trees.

But in SL, you can fly. You can TP. Yes, there's this notion of lovely drives in CC. But for that you don't need easements; you need roads. And there could be less of them, really; they cost money.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

35 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

Chilbo didn't stop being active because of tier issues or parcel size. The build is still there and you can still visit. Somebody is paying for it. But simply being there does not make it an active community.

One day, only two people turned up to the town hall meeting. Me and someone who was new to the community. I found out later that the core of the people running things had decided to leave for other grids, but rather than leave a message, they just didn't turn up. This is the main problem. The community will only stay active as long as there are active leaders. This sets the maximum life of the community.

The biggest problem to solve is to find a way to spread the organisation so it doesn't rely so much on one or a few people. You don't want people who are too connected to each other (like a group of friends deciding to start a community), because they'll all leave at once.

Well, just to dig a little deeper into that story, as I knew one of the founders well. I believe the story was this: She had struggled and struggled to get her college department to fund SL, even on the Mainland, even for small amounts nothing like the island costs, and the administrators were scared and timid as you can imagine all such institutions are; I believe they finally did provide some modest funding but then at some point it was pulled. It can be hard to calculate the cost/benefit of these kinds of esoteric projects for grant proposals. 

But yes, I never heard anything about the parcel size or community areas or anything like that being an issue, as it has in other areas. When you spread the organization to more people, inevitably griefers and grifters get in and cause havoc in a virtual world where there are anonymous actors and not even with payment on file, and where the platform will not adjudicate disputes, and who can blame them. Chilbo is still a place you can visit and hang out and get some learning materials although of course it's a ghost of its former self.

A community needs 16 people to pay $11.99 plus $67 for 4096 m on their premium accounts (and optimize it as you like). Or 15.5 or whatever it takes for a group bonus etc. One of the 4096s has to be a park or empty or a landing so it is nice looking. The other 14 or 13 cannot be flat sand pancakes with shacks on them as people don't actually find that attractive if they want to have community life as distinct from life in a silo or as a couple. You could save further if someone could buy more than a sim, get the discounted tier, and then collect from the others -- hey, that sounds like a rental company, and *is*.

What happens when someone, like Anthony Fremont, pulls out their $11.99/$67 4096? It leaves a hole. This is why you don't make anything bigger than a sim. It's also why 4096 is actually a good way to start with just the 1024 "free" tier holding it together, with 4 people. See if you even get along for a year.

I remember once yeas ago, with Uri and Pixeleen and co. at the Herald, we made "The United States of States United" on I believe 96m of land, where each put in 16 or 32 if they were generous for the group, and we got a little bonus. We made government surplus content and put it out for free. I think we argued about something or somebody got busy in RL or something and it got abandoned.

[Mollymews]

5 hours ago, Polenth Yue said:

Chilbo didn't stop being active because of tier issues or parcel size. The build is still there and you can still visit. Somebody is paying for it. But simply being there does not make it an active community.

One day, only two people turned up to the town hall meeting. Me and someone who was new to the community. I found out later that the core of the people running things had decided to leave for other grids, but rather than leave a message, they just didn't turn up. This is the main problem. The community will only stay active as long as there are active leaders. This sets the maximum life of the community.

The biggest problem to solve is to find a way to spread the organisation so it doesn't rely so much on one or a few people. You don't want people who are too connected to each other (like a group of friends deciding to start a community), because they'll all leave at once.

i find it quite interesting hearing others relate their experiences as you have done here

so I do the same from my personal experience, and how my own experience shapes my view

i had a parcel in Chilbo as well back in the day. I think your analogy is right that Chilbo is/was more like a township than a tight-knit community united around a narrow vision. The vision was quite broad as is the case with towns

i remember when it first started from the roadside in Chilbo region, spread quite quickly south into Madhupak and then east and west into the neighbouring regions along the highway. At its zenith expansion point the pathways had spread north up to Nabi region and got within about half region distance of the Welcome Area to the north (Hanja). I used to like watching the growth expansion on the World Map. And wandering my avatar up and down the pathways taking in the sights

then it all came to a head at the time you are mentioning. A post appeared over the street from a person who said that community land tier contributions were way down and they were pretty much having to cover it all themself and they couldn't do this anymore. A few people stepped up, taking on what they could afford. Consolidation began and the Chilbo township over the following year or two fell back pretty much to Chilbo and Madhupak

when look round the town today, there has been a lot of consolidation in parcel ownership on Chilbo and Madhupak over the years since. Probably only a quarter the number, if that, of different parcel owners from its heyday

my view on parcel sizing comes from my time living there. I purchased a 512m parcel next to a easement pathway. The tier I could contribute toward the cost of the easement was 46. Thru putting my parcel into my group ownership and contributing the overage to the group that owned the easement. Which didn't fully cover the full cost of the 64 meter easement

had my parcel been a 484m then I could have contributed tier to cover the whole cost of the existing easement and 10% more. I did ask my neighbours if they would take a 64m strip if I cut it off my parcel. They all said thanks but No, as it would put them up into the next tier bracket. And I was never going to sell the strip on the open market because adfarmers in those times

i could have offered the strip to the community group but even with 64m more tier to contribute, it still wouldn't cover the full cost of the strip and the existing easement. So I was kinda stuck. These kinds of situations gnaw at me. In the same way I don't go to clubs when I can't make a donation/tip. So I eventually ended up selling the whole parcel to my immediate neighbour who got a whole 512m expansion for their jump in tier level

here is a link to the 2009 Chilbo census:

Slide 4: I was one of the Red bar people. Less than 5% of the then population contributing tier to the town for land which they weren't themselves using directly. And even then as I mentioned, I never contributed the full cost of the easement by my parcel, because parcel size and budget

which informs my view and raises the question: How do you grow the Red Bar contributions other than thru largesse ?  Only other way I can see is thru tier-level friendly parcel sizing

Edited November 3, 2021 by Mollymews
Hanja

[Prokofy Neva]

5 hours ago, Mollymews said:

i find it quite interesting hearing others relate their experiences as you have done here

so I do the same from my personal experience, and how my own experience shapes my view

i had a parcel in Chilbo as well back in the day. I think your analogy is right that Chilbo is/was more like a township than a tight-knit community united around a narrow vision. The vision was quite broad as is the case with towns

i remember when it first started from the roadside in Chilbo region, spread quite quickly south into Madhupak and then east and west into the neighbouring regions along the highway. At its zenith expansion point the pathways had spread north up to Nabi region and got within about half region distance of the Welcome Area to the north (Hanja). I used to like watching the growth expansion on the World Map. And wandering my avatar up and down the pathways taking in the sights

then it all came to a head at the time you are mentioning. A post appeared over the street from a person who said that community land tier contributions were way down and they were pretty much having to cover it all themself and they couldn't do this anymore. A few people stepped up, taking on what they could afford. Consolidation began and the Chilbo township over the following year or two fell back pretty much to Chilbo and Madhupak

when look round the town today, there has been a lot of consolidation in parcel ownership on Chilbo and Madhupak over the years since. Probably only a quarter the number, if that, of different parcel owners from its heyday

my view on parcel sizing comes from my time living there. I purchased a 512m parcel next to a easement pathway. The tier I could contribute toward the cost of the easement was 46. Thru putting my parcel into my group ownership and contributing the overage to the group that owned the easement. Which didn't fully cover the full cost of the 64 meter easement

had my parcel been a 484m then I could have contributed tier to cover the whole cost of the existing easement and 10% more. I did ask my neighbours if they would take a 64m strip if I cut it off my parcel. They all said thanks but No, as it would put them up into the next tier bracket. And I was never going to sell the strip on the open market because adfarmers in those times

i could have offered the strip to the community group but even with 64m more tier to contribute, it still wouldn't cover the full cost of the strip and the existing easement. So I was kinda stuck. These kinds of situations gnaw at me. In the same way I don't go to clubs when I can't make a donation/tip. So I eventually ended up selling the whole parcel to my immediate neighbour who got a whole 512m expansion for their jump in tier level

here is a link to the 2009 Chilbo census:

Slide 4: I was one of the Red bar people. Less than 5% of the then population contributing tier to the town for land which they weren't themselves using directly. And even then as I mentioned, I never contributed the full cost of the easement by my parcel, because parcel size and budget

which informs my view and raises the question: How do you grow the Red Bar contributions other than thru largesse ?  Only other way I can see is thru tier-level friendly parcel sizing

"Township" is really the term to apply. The looser it is, the easier it is to keep going. In fact THAT is why Chilbo still exists today as a place you can still go to, chill, check out the library etc. Yes, at its hey-dey it was spreading like kudzu and that's a hard temptation to avoid because everyone wants prims and in those days there was no mesh. If it weren't for that more loose configuration, it would have disappeared from the map. Remembered the "planned community of Midge"? (I thought of it again when I saw all of Midge was for sale yet again).

And isn't it always the way? less than 5%. I have rarely seen it go above 15%. People do better when a government which hopefully they elected democratically collects taxes, builds roads and hospitals and schools, and they use them, without following what those people said on a forums somewhere and not liking them. Of course, social media removed that civilization.

I think "township" -- such as Penn Yan, NY ("A Friendly Little Town" was its slogan), population 3016 until my brother is born and then whoops, 3017, then Mrs. Lacey dies and someone has to come out and paint the number again. In SL, it should be elastic enough so that people come and go, it waxes and wanes. I have always treated my Mainland rentals like the Titanic, spread out on separate parcels on various sims so that if it is sinking, you can lose a pontoon on this or that sim and you might still float. 

It's living in these tight communes like Aleki's chicken farm in Portlandia? You know the one? Those end in tears.

Your idea of the bonus generated from the 512 is brilliant, if the job is to "create easements" but then even so, you find yourself short. So then you need one of the 512 contributors to contribute the whole easement. Except that's an accident going somewhere to happen. 

I can't believe I spent half an hour trying to figure out how to put trees or SOMETHING in these CC easements that I bought, then realizing *I don't have to do this because I never do this. I can merge all the parcels*. I could even *not* put trees, or put like a few very low LOD low prim Yugen larches to "set the tone" because now there's no one to whom I am beholden trying to "keep their look" since they didn't even keep their own look.

I have also spent an hour building a road. My God, I have never built a road in my virtual life! Lindens build roads! Moles! Where I come from, the Lindens built all the roads FIRST. Then in Corsica, the Moles built the Circuit du Something, right? I mean why would *I* start building roads??? There's a reason why residents are not meant to build roads, which is a municipal/country activity and even in the most libertarian version, there's still that entity that builds roads -- but that's not you.

I came prepared in my Pilot's Dream outfit from Lux Aeterna because I know they like airports there and I couldn't find my construction helmet. I actually don't have an airplane. I wear this outfit to TP to CC. 

PS I should mention that a lot of the stuff in the view here is not mine, i.e. prims not tiling well as terrain but a prim has to be used "because only one"  (because mesh that big might be 36 prims; resistance to the terrain mandate by just leaving out what Eric Linden created (I'm fine with that). It's ok, I think it's better not to have an overstuffed look.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Qie Niangao]

10 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Instead, you have a rule that when people build, they have to step back 16 or preferably 32 m from their property line. I've been taken to task for this rule by Qie and others over the yars but that's because...I'm not going to tier empty land to keep tenants from fighting each other. 

I sure don't remember complaining about the concept. I do recall suggesting that you really meant 4 or 8 m instead of 16 or 32 m, because, well, 16x32m is the size of a whole standard "first land" 512 and those seem awfully big as setbacks for any parcel smaller than maybe a quarter region.

[Prokofy Neva]

8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I sure don't remember complaining about the concept. I do recall suggesting that you really meant 4 or 8 m instead of 16 or 32 m, because, well, 16x32m is the size of a whole standard "first land" 512 and those seem awfully big as setbacks for any parcel smaller than maybe a quarter region.

No, I meant 16 m because it's only on one side generally, possibly two. Usually there is a wall behind the parcel or there is a commons or park (which is how I prefer to do it rather than put easements all the way around the parcel).

"Be considerate of your neighbour" is one of my rules. That contains everything from stepping back from the border, rather than putting a black box smack on the border, to not putting up a giant refrigerator or a giant Greta, as it happens (I didn't realize CC had a "Refrigerator" type incident where someone put up a giant Greta ("How Dare You") because they had a beef with the founders.

[Mollymews]

20 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

if the job is to "create easements"

i think about how to do this sometimes.  There is a few ways to do it.  Having seen lots of different ways it can be done with varying degrees of success/fail then my thoughts return to the following way. Which may or not succeed but I think is the best chance

if we did want to have town easements then the maintenance of these should not vested in a Town Council or Community Trust or however we might organise the community activities as a whole

the easements are the responsibility of the Roads Board, which only has one function: To secure the tier for the easements and build/maintain them. This is all the Roads Board does, nothing more. Is only ever about the tier for the Roads Board. This is the same as a Roads Board in real life. They just look after the roads. What the town that grows up beside the roads does, is the domain affair of its residents organised between themselves on their own land. Town Hall Committee, Museum Trust, Art Gallery Trust. Community Park Trust, etc 

the Roads Board (same as in reals) is prudent about how far to extend the easements

like at the end of the path there is a sign which says "Haere Ra! You are leaving our town. Safe travels" On the other side it says "Haere mai! Welcome to our town. Enjoy your visit"

new person comes and buys a 1024 parcel at the end of the path, and says hi! can I join your town please? Roads Board goes: Sure can! Cut a 4 meter wide strip from your parcel, and set it to the Roads Board group to which you just been invited. Do that and we will extend the easement across the strip and move the town sign to the new end of the path. New person goes: Cool! thanks! Roads Board goes: You welcome and welcome!

Roads Board then says: If you want to make tier contribution to the town now, then deed your own parcel (not including the strip) to your own group. And the little bit of tier you will have spare, you can contribute to the Roads Board. New person thinks I can do that. And they do

result is the easement cost is fully covered, and the Roads Board gets a tiny bit of tier which they can apply elsewhere. For sure should that person then leave then the easement on their parcel can be lost and blockages can appear in the easement network.  When so the Roads Board works with the remaining neighbouring parcel owners to reroute around the blockage. The Chilbo experience is that these parcel owners often say sure. Which sometimes is as simple as laying down path prims on their parcel, without changing land ownership in any way   

 

a prudent Roads Board.  Another new person with grand designs comes and buys half a region at the end of the path. And says: hi! can I become part of your town please! This is fabulous. I so want to help grow the town. I want to make easements on my land, deed them to the Roads Board and defo will contribute the tier. My idea is to cut out parcels for sale and rent. Like a new subdivision for the town. Will be great for the town, lots more people coming in to be part of this wonderful community!

Roads Board goes: No

cut your easements and we will help join your connecting easement up to ours. And on the opposite side of the path to our sign, you can put up your sign which says "Haere Mai! Welcome to Your Town". Grand designs person goes: Thats a bit off ! I am not going to do it now! Roads Board goes: Sorry to hear that. Is there anything else we can not help you with

[Prokofy Neva]

Hmm, I need to think about this some more, especially that last part. I don't know if you intended it that way, but your first option sounds a bit like this: donate to our Roads Board and only then can you be a member of our town, with whatever perks are entailed. But what's in it for him? There has to be mutual benefit. That he gets a road? OK. But it sounds more like "or we ban you so you can't cross that road."

I used to imagine that the Lindens could create some Linden group but with differentiated roles where they put residents in with limited powers to take care of some routine maintenance matters, like removing crashed airplanes or reviewing and acting upon encroachment tickets that weren't solved in the usual way. But of course the danger is that one of these worthies will return entire buildings they don't like. If they were in charge of roads, my God, what *that* would turn into.

I have the role "Householders" in my rentals for very long-term tenants in good standing some of whom I have met in RL, who are entitled to return group-set prims if I'm not available, to solve emergencies. But who gets to run the Road Board? I have my tier in this group, but what can I do in it? I pay for it, but I can't lay a prim on its land, which like a collectivized things is really "nobody's" yet actually "somebody's" -- that Road Board and their pals. All I get to do is be thankful they don't ban me on four sides of my newly-purchased lot where they have the easements. (And I'm waiting for that to happen in CC).

I totally realize that in a friendly small town setting with this Maori saying on the signs (I looked it up but I'm still puzzled) it's all going to be hail-fellow-well-met. But SL is not like that as you know. PS I'm also puzzled how you could calf out "just roads". I can't imagine that even in a small town in the US let alone a big city. Because roads are all connected to other things! Parking lots! Schools! Hospitals! Businesses!  One problem is just establishing who *is* responsible. I can't tell you how long I've tried to get an answer to this question about E. 25th St. where I and others have had nasty falls because the sidewalk is buckled and broken with huge potholes -- and right in front of the early voting center, which ensures many more fall. No one can tell me. Meanwhile, the south side of E. 25th was repaired with a sidewalk as smooth as a baby's behind, but that's because some private corporate interest is there; but it was only dug up because the park is being all dug up and rebuilt AGAIN because "somebody got a contract". 

I really think in a way the Lindens created a conflict vector by building entire sims with no roads. Maybe they thought that was rustic or bucolic or maybe they just ran out of time and money but I have to say, the Circuit du Something is not a replacement for lack of interior roads, as nice as it is, and I do ride it often and gaze out at those amazingly austere and ugly abandoned or blighted sims with the funny names (wouldn't you want a parcel in a sim called "Timescape"? I would).

It's very hard to get people to be altruistic and work for the good of the community if there is nothing in it for them. There's nothing wrong for that; self-interest is the root of civilization. Usually people who yammer on about how they are "helping the commuuunity" are people want the reputational enhancement that goes with that and the "need to be needed" and the recognition. It's like the kidney donation woman, you know? Did you read that NYT story? 

Long ago when I started my rental communities, I tried to think if I could do this community space sharing stuff not on the entire sim, where it would get too zooey, but just in the commons, 10,000 meters one one sim, and in the sort of "club" of the Sutherland Dam, which is a kind of Easter egg in SL. I tried this and that, and you know how these things are, endless meetings, like your high school or college government or you tenants' committee. People have grand ideas about how they are serving the community with land they don't pay tier on donate a little bit only, grand ideas usually revolving around their own interests.

Generally I find it is very hard to decide these things after the fact, after you are given a set of immutable circumstances. It's like the whole Metaverse. People keep thinking it's about this or that company racing to the finish line first with their tech. But it should have been started with consideration of what you need in a Metaverse, really, what people's real needs are, and then decided democratically.

So again, it's hard for me to theorizing all this, I have to look at concrete circumstances. And here I made a discovery: the reason why a community planner wants these easements all around the lots, which seems like folly to me and a lot of extra work (and PS a conflict generator as tenants fight among themselves over whether somebody's tree is in their living room or their YouTube won't shut up etc).

And that reason is: so they can control the road and its problems. It's fine when you lay a road alongside the easements you just bought, which you may or may not use as easements (I have on one side, because I already made the whole area that way, working with the exigency of CC's easements; on the other side I bought to "save the view" it seems totally unnecessary and PS two other new buyers also ditched or absorbed the easements. So what can you do.

But now I have the problem of getting the road past them -- I can't encroach on their land. They haven't agreed to that, which was the tacit CC agreement -- both tenant and organizer encroached a little bit on either side just to make all those Skye and HPMD etc landscaping thingies work. (BTW this is one reason why I tend to have the minimum of those products as they create these overstuffed looks with encroachment a built-in problem).

So the Botanical road seemed the best for this because you can big it up without it adding prims; it's stays one prim; plus its texture readjusts. But to fit in with its own company's landscaping or any other's, it has these kind of flayed edges; you then have to pull those in not to encroach and you end up with this unpaved ground. So you can put in a prim and texture it but then prim roads look terrible and that can only be the underpinning to mesh or sculpty paving. Of course there's the sim seam problems. 

Thus having lived out this problem now for several hours last night, I think what the best thing would be is  not a Roads Committee that no one will sit still for, and not any committee or tier giving or anything of the sort, but merely a true easement, i.e. a true concession to the idea that you can "trespass" on someone's property with a road or occasional stone or tree prims for the good of the whole sim. 

Next up is the encroachment wars. The people in another planned community (don't know their story) all have encroaching prims on my new and old land. But so what? I don't care. It's rooted and doesn't count on my count. It's part of the whole landscape effect. Maybe it's not all my choice but to return it is to undo their hard work, and possibly means even returning an entire house base or house; why not just build around it? That's my attitude. But some people live for returning neighbours' prims and like Gladys in "Bewitched" sit with the curtain slightly open all day staring out the window, waiting for a tree branch to wave on to their land.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Mollymews]

22 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Hmm, I need to think about this some more, especially that last part. I don't know if you intended it that way, but your first option sounds a bit like this: donate to our Roads Board and only then can you be a member of our town, with whatever perks are entailed. But what's in it for him? There has to be mutual benefit. That he gets a road? OK. But it sounds more like "or we ban you so you can't cross that road."

i didn't mean it to sound like anyone is going to be banned

the parcel owner wanting to add an adjoining parcel to the town, doesn't have to cut a strip for an easement. Nothing will happen to them if they don't. The path (the town limits) stops at the edge of their parcel. The sign stays where it is. They live on the outskirts of town. They can come and go to town any time they like. They can join and support the Museum Trust or any other community based activity in the town. Nobody is going to discourage them from doing this, or tell them that they can't

but if they want the sign moved so they can say they live in town then the Roads Board is not going to move the sign unless the parcel owner makes some commitment to the roading network in a practical way. A way which won't cost the parcel owner anything more than is costing them now

and if on being shown by the Roads Board how they can also contribute their little overage tier to the Roads Board without costing them anymore either and they choose to do this then great! And if they don't then thats fine also. They might want to contribute their little tier overage to the Museum Trust. Which is great! also. Or not which is also fine as they might want to give their overage to some Wilderness Park somewhere else completely

about asking that 1024m new person to cut the strip for the easement, which they will still own as is set to the Roads Board, not deeded. As a Roads Board I would just want to know how serious they are when they turn up and start gushing about wanting to live in town. If it ends up they don't want to do anything then it doesn't matter. As a Roads Board it doesn't cost me anything if they don't. That they live on the outskirts of town is no different from people living on a different continent and coming to town

with the person with the grand designs. Then prudence and caution. Don't over commit. The grand design person can start with a new town. Is fine for towns to be side by side. Adds variety as well. Maybe one day the towns might combine into a city, the towns becoming boroughs of the city. But is no hurry to do that

 

edit add

by don't over commit I mean don't over commit your town name to a neighbouring grand design project that doesn't follow your town's Roads Board best practices. We don't want to end up with a Durdanne. People buying property in good faith thinking that the property was within town limits, when there was no plan for how to ensure that road taxes (tier) were paid on a ongoing basis. Other than hope that people would volunteer to do this

Edited November 5, 2021 by Mollymews

[Karl Herber]

On 11/3/2021 at 11:46 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

 

 

 

I love that you built that road, I really do. (Even though it ends right before my parcel starts). I even thought, yes, I can do the same and buy the roadway in front of mine, but it works out at over 300sq m, which takes me up into a tier band that I can't afford, and I can't even use in my LI allocation because my parcel is in Emyniad and the road is in Durdane. 

Sigh. 

The parcel I really wanted was the one next door to yours, which now has nothing on it except that one old cottage with no landscaping whatsoever.  That's the one I rented when I was in CC previously. Unfortunately I was too late for that one.

[Prokofy Neva]

33 minutes ago, Karly Kiyori said:

I love that you built that road, I really do. (Even though it ends right before my parcel starts). I even thought, yes, I can do the same and buy the roadway in front of mine, but it works out at over 300sq m, which takes me up into a tier band that I can't afford, and I can't even use in my LI allocation because my parcel is in Emyniad and the road is in Durdane. 

Sigh. 

The parcel I really wanted was the one next door to yours, which now has nothing on it except that one old cottage with no landscaping whatsoever.  That's the one I rented when I was in CC previously. Unfortunately I was too late for that one.

 

Well, I can't extend it past land I don't own, you know? And I don't have the tier to do this endlessly. That's a problem. Others will have to take up this challenge. It literally depends on how many tier donors I have to my own groups, which is a fluctuating number.

Yes, they were on different sims, so I at first thought I couldn't possibly take on that land in Durdane. But then I realized if I don't fix that road and the other vulnerabilities, nothing of mine in Emyniad will rent, I might as well just abandon the whole thing. But since it had tenants on it until just now with this debacle, I want to see if I can rescue it, maybe give it another month or two at least, because in that immediate area, nothing so terrible is in the view at all. To be sure, there is that "old cottage with no landscaping". I don't scorn that at all because I don't start with this attitude that all Mainland terrain has to be hidden under mounds of landscaping. I think that actually doesn't look so well much of the time. I'm grateful that neighbour has a cottage "in theme" and there's no black box. Perhaps my standards are lowered, being on other Mainland. But honestly, all of this within the view is absolutely as good as it gets in SL so don't scorn it. "No access" is an annoyance but since little activity is occurring on that and the other one behind him (there's actually 2 owners there if you look closely) and they are very new owners, having bit on the poisoned bait, maybe that will be abandoned too soon enough. 

[Mollymews]

i was thinking about the issue of a cut strip pathway being withdrawn from the Roads Board. There is now a blockage in the roading network. People on the other side now isolated (no longer a contiguous pathway for however long that might be)

the Roads Board would have an Experience.  At the start/ends of the blocked path there is a gate (portal). Walk into or Touch the gate and in the Experience then woosh! auto-teleported to the path on the other side, where there is a gate going the other way.  If not in the Experience then get given a Landmark to the other side and person can travel that way

extrapolating this roading network design. Could build a virtual town spread all over the grid. Gates (portals) at each end of the contiguous pathways, taking you to the next area of the virtual town

Edited November 4, 2021 by Mollymews
typss

[Karl Herber]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

"No access" is an annoyance but since little activity is occurring on that and the other one behind him (there's actually 2 owners there if you look closely) and they are very new owners, having bit on the poisoned bait, maybe that will be abandoned too soon enough. 

The second owner behind was there when I rented, still with banlines up and with nothing built on the ground, only a skybox up beyond the reach of the banlines. I think it belongs (or used to belong) to the Laguna Blu community, it was never part of CC.  The front parcel was mine and Kitty made clever use of the L-shape, making a terraced garden with a raised area in the short leg of the L, and a high wall separating my parcel from the small one.

I don't really mind when other people put up banlines, except where they are adjacent to sailing routes or main driving routes like the Circuit Du Corse, then they're a pain f you crash your boat or car into them. I'm not likely to be using anything faster than a horse around CC though.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

31 minutes ago, Karly Kiyori said:

The second owner behind was there when I rented, still with banlines up and with nothing built on the ground, only a skybox up beyond the reach of the banlines. I think it belongs (or used to belong) to the Laguna Blu community, it was never part of CC.  The front parcel was mine and Kitty made clever use of the L-shape, making a terraced garden with a raised area in the short leg of the L, and a high wall separating my parcel from the small one.

I don't really mind when other people put up banlines, except where they are adjacent to sailing routes or main driving routes like the Circuit Du Corse, then they're a pain f you crash your boat or car into them. I'm not likely to be using anything faster than a horse around CC though.

 

Oh totally. No-access or group only or ban is the least of one's problems. It's slightly inconvenient for me flying in and out of my parcel there but it's not an orb going into the road needlessly, it's just no-access on the parcel. If there was some urgency, I might ask the owners if I can be put in their white list; sometimes that works. But "ars longa, vita breva." Yes I realize Laguna was not CC yet they sort of segue into it and aren't out of place or anything. 

[kitten Mills]

If someone wants to restore the abadoned street in front of their house, they don't necessarily have to buy it.
i only needed 2 min building rights on his land and 2 prim from his prim limit. Anyone can do it themselves if they own the road parts. You just have to connect the road to a rootprim on your own land and you can blend up to 64m of abadoned land with the road part. as long as no one buys the abadoned land, no one will mind. 
It is more difficult if the road crosses sim borders, because it then automatically becomes phantom. it should then be as close as possible to the land. Where I have building rights in the vicinity, I have already repaired some things in this way, including the river in durdane.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 11/3/2021 at 8:19 AM, Qie Niangao said:

I sure don't remember complaining about the concept. I do recall suggesting that you really meant 4 or 8 m instead of 16 or 32 m, because, well, 16x32m is the size of a whole standard "first land" 512 and those seem awfully big as setbacks for any parcel smaller than maybe a quarter region.

Actually, I see the problem now. You did complain and repeated it, but that's because you took "16 m" very literally, although people seldom use it that way. "16 m" means "16 m2" or an area of 16 *square* meters, the small block that is the smallest you could start to draw along a parcel. Sure, it's "4 meters on one side" and not "16 meters on one side" but because you are making a square around the lot, mainly focusing on one side (or possibly two) you speak of it that way for short.

So I don't "really mean" "4 or 8". I mean 16, but "an area of 16 square meters". Again, people dealing with land speak in shorthand, not literalisms. They speak of land costing "$5" by which they mean "$5/m", not the entire parcel for only $5. I think this would have been more obvious if you had ever had to stand on your parcel and try to make this "16 m2 easement" with trees or bushes or rocks, but maybe you never made them on your land or saw it as an issue. When you have 20+ houses on a sim, you worry about such things.

[Qie Niangao]

I guess for easements I can kinda see the point because they'll be carved into separate parcels so it's inherently going to come in multiples of 4x4m units, so the "16" area measure makes sense in a way, and "32" as shorthand for a strip twice as wide. For setbacks, though… maybe I've spent too much time staring at RL zoning applications, but "setbacks" are so naturally expressed as linear dimensions on a plot map—and even in SL, not necessarily in units of 4m width. Anyway, doesn't matter, I understand what you mean now.

[Josain Zsun]

Fleep Tuque did an exceptional job of planning & organizing Chilbo and cheerleading education in Second Life. When LL reorganized and laid off those involved with education and eliminated education programs, Chilbo founders, and many other sim "owners",  left. This included eliminating educational discounts, mid-fiscal year. This timing prevented educators and their administrations to justify or make budget adjustments for the instantly doubled *-/tier rate.  These were the creative movers and shakers that made most of the epic builds and in Second Life.

At one point, Chilbo community encompassed 13 sims. Deaths and abandonment has shrunk the community to within the Chilbo sim. Over the past year, several Chilbo residents with large holdings, passed away.  Now, some residents have been working to update and make Chilbo attractive again.  Vacant parcels have been resized, and terraformed to accommodate Premium 1024 sqm allowance, for potential new residents.  Fleep's trade mark Chilbo sidewalks are being realigned and standardized by Becca Vichan,  Alyin Moonshadow and Corcosman Voom.  Maggie Larimore (Dr. Nancy Zingrone), has expanded Virtual Worlds MOOC, for continued teacher training in Virtual Worlds.  The Chilbo Library has been repurposed to the VMOOC Library and moved near their HQ and class parcel.  Lyn Navarita has been building and furnishing the replacement Newcomers Library, across Route 10 from Town Hall.