Paul Hexem Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 So, recently a club "hired" me to come look around and try to figure out what scripts could be improved, because the sim gets really laggy sometimes.So I went and looked, poked around, tried to figure out what did wat, watched the FPS and Time Dilation, and couldn't figure out what would make the place laggy.Then I script counted some of the dancers. Some of these girls, their hair alone, was over 200 scripts. Obviously resizer scripts, because the hair is no-mod (am I allowed to say the store name and tell people to avoid it?)When I reached the conclusion that the girls were causing the very lag they were complaining about, the response was essentially "Well, it's a club and we need to look nice, we have to wear good hair."They couldn't wrap their head around the fact that they don't have to be laggy to look good.Laggy does not equal good! YOU are the reason SL is laggy! STOP IT.Sorry, I just had to get that rant out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peewee Musytari Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Doesn`t everyone know this yet? lol Its not just girls & not just hair & gradually the creators (at least the responsible ones) are making an effort to make the scripts removable. You are preaching to the converted on these forums though, but a good try if it reaches at least one person that didn`t know it already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imnotgoing Sideways Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Truth hair comes unscripted and looks better than most of what's out there. () And, sooooo many people (myself included) have written 1-script resizers. Why ain't anyone using them yet? () Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 No, you can't name the store that makes laggy hair. I totally agree with this post. Lag is basically caused by 2 main things, a poor computer (user side only) or poor judgment in what you wear (affects everyone). Unfortunately, we residents aren't usually aware of how many scripts we're running. Some hair, clothing & jewelry manufacturers let their customer know they can delete resize or recolor scripts. Others produce No Modify items that don't allow users to remove the scripts. If residents HATE lag, they have to do what they can to clean it up. It's like not littering because you don't like seeing trash all over the place. (Yeah, we all know how well that rule works in RL.) Nobody is going to give script hogs a ticket for littering. Dancers & hostesses need to have nice hair, because they won't get tips if they don't look good. Try suggesting stores that have removable scripts & put a script counting board into your club, so everyone will know who the script hogs are. (My roommate says several fighting groups do this, because lag is even more annoying for fighters than it is for dance clubs.) There are also a couple of good free script counting devices on SL Marketplace for personal use. .:BLK:. Avatar Script Memory Monitor Avatar/Object Script Memory Monitor Kit Weight Scale Script Counter * Script & Memory Use Scale Counter Script Counter - Click Me! Coagulate Script Counter Welcome Mat Script Counter * I've only used the Weight Scale Script Counter, which has a good buyer rating. I can't vouch for the other products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Peewee Musytari wrote: Doesn`t everyone know this yet? lol A lot of people know it, but feel that SL should refuse to be laggy because its their right to wear anything they bought and SL just needs to violate the rules of Computer Science and get with it. You can't name the store here, but you can name it on other SL sites, and you can go AR it for abuse of sim resources. AR the hair anytime you see it worn... And you can tell me privately and I'll put it in a blog post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabbage Acanthus Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 /me realizes that he is the reason that SL is so laggy and very slowly walks away crying resizable bling laden tears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Imnotgoing Sideways wrote: And, sooooo many people (myself included) have written 1-script resizers. Why ain't anyone using them yet? () My free linkset resizer sells pretty well. But it isn't selling fast enough and some of the merchants who put out this crap and caused all the lag we now today think of as normal in SL feel the same sense of entitlement as those breedable pet fans feel... Its their right to lag SL to death, and screw everyone else... screw even themselves when they lag their own connections off the grid... SL needs to to become magical and do things no machine in the real universe can do so they can get away with it... - read some complaints from these people, its that delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Persephone Emerald wrote: Try suggesting stores that have removable scripts & put a script counting board into your club, so everyone will know who the script hogs are. (My roommate says several fighting groups do this, because lag is even more annoying for fighters than it is for dance clubs.) So the links you made are for personal ones. Where can we get the board to put up in public and shame people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 The first 2 links are for boards that let everyone know who the script hogs are. Most of the rest of the links are for personal use script counters. The last one is for a Welcome Mat that announces script usage as people walk over it. p.s. I was wearing hair while on the Silk Road Hunt that had a re-color script in it, though I didn''t know it did. When the topic of scripts & lag came up in the chat group, I checked my new hair & found it was scripted. I was able to copy it & remove the script from the copy. Then I weighed myself on my script weigth scale & saw the difference in memory use. It does make a difference in personal lag when you reduce the number of scripts you're running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Ahren Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Shouldn't this be an issue addressed by LL? Set a limit on the number of scripts that a single avatar can have running at one time and refuse to run scripts over that limit. I saw one lady that had 910 scripts. She looked great though, especially her hair. Also, how much lag do breedable animals cause? I checked some Ameretto horses yesterday, and it looked like about 10 scripts per hoss, not so bad really, considering that most female avatars run from 100 to 300 scripts each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasya Sciavo Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Well, now.....is that right, huh? The people who spend money on nice, fairly expensive avatar accesories are to blame? Am, I getting this right, here? How, deplorably selfish of them!....tsk tsk..... They should be warned not to spend on such frippery so they can enjoy SL! :matte-motes-big-grin-squint: By that rationale, perhaps the insane weekend lag on too-many-to-even-mention sims is because I am wearing too much in RL, also, perhaps? :matte-motes-silly: We should be naked at our computers, and only use noob avatars, d'ya think? Or.....could it not be something to do with the poor investment over...what?...6 years..... in improving the grid performance, as has been mentioned in another post so that SL runs well, you know kinda like the virtual world competition is now doing? I am picturing you on a customer relations desk in a department store in my mind's eye. A woman is complaining her fridge freezer she bought off you, and pays a tidy sum weekly for, is not sufficiently cool when she stocks it full of produce. Produce that she has to buy in your store,also. Produce you are more than happy for her to buy as much of as she can afford. You fold your arms, smile...sigh deprecatingly.....and explain to the silly woman she should not spend so much money on produce. It is her fault the fridge freezer is not cold enough! Is she stupid or what? In future, she should only fill it a quarter full....and with low grade produce, too. That way her fridge freezer will run fine. Do you think that woman is going to buy another fridge freezer from your shop? Take a wild, wild guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Singer Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 it's a reason for lag, but it's hardly the only one.... arguably the content creator that uses 50 different 1024^2 textures is just as bad if not worse. there are also some horribly laggy dance huds and AO's that are actually worse than the 200 resize script hair that sits idle, or the physical scanner huds that not only spam the region with dozens of physical sensors, but also spawn trackers that try to update faster than the code can actually execute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Patton Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 While I agree with the sentiments about scripts (avoid no-mod attachments with re-sizer scripts, they are a plague), it's also just a fact that if there are a lot of people in a sim, even wearing no attachments, scripted or otherwise, the sim will get laggy. The overuse of scripts just makes it worse. Actually, my understanding of it is that scripts do not contribute to the particular type of lag where the whole sim seems to slow down. Instead, when the script is bogged down scripts simply stop running until processing resources are available. Script heavy avatars instead prevent scripts from running correctly, contributing to a "script lag" which causes all scripted items in the sim to be affected and slow down or stop working altgoether. Is that correct? And, of course, the framerate issues that people mistakenly label "lag" are caused by the number of particles, large texture maps, and polygons your computer has to render. If your framerate is suffering it's because of the number of prims and particles on screen, not any number of scripts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Kasya Sciavo wrote: Well, now.....is that right, huh? The people who spend money on nice, fairly expensive avatar accesories are to blame? Am, I getting this right, here? No you're not getting it right. Go back and reread the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasya Sciavo Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Ummm, actually, I think that might not be a bad idea for yourself to do, again?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Kasya Sciavo wrote: Ummm, actually, I think that might not be a bad idea for yourself to do, again?? Your diatribe would have a little more weight to it if the grid wasn't full of stores selling high quality items that don't lag a sim to death. I'll bet the very same dancers with the laggy hair that said they had to wear it to look good had equally good looking hair in their inventory that didn't have hundreds of scripts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 Kasya Sciavo wrote: Well, now.....is that right, huh? The people who spend money on nice, fairly expensive avatar accesories are to blame? Am, I getting this right, here? How, deplorably selfish of them!....tsk tsk..... They should be warned not to spend on such frippery so they can enjoy SL! :matte-motes-big-grin-squint: By that rationale, perhaps the insane weekend lag on too-many-to-even-mention sims is because I am wearing too much in RL, also, perhaps? :matte-motes-silly: We should be naked at our computers, and only use noob avatars, d'ya think? Or.....could it not be something to do with the poor investment over...what?...6 years..... in improving the grid performance, as has been mentioned in another post so that SL runs well, you know kinda like the virtual world competition is now doing? I am picturing you on a customer relations desk in a department store in my mind's eye. A woman is complaining her fridge freezer she bought off you, and pays a tidy sum weekly for, is not sufficiently cool when she stocks it full of produce. Produce that she has to buy in your store,also. Produce you are more than happy for her to buy as much of as she can afford. You fold your arms, smile...sigh deprecatingly.....and explain to the silly woman she should not spend so much money on produce. It is her fault the fridge freezer is not cold enough! Is she stupid or what? In future, she should only fill it a quarter full....and with low grade produce, too. That way her fridge freezer will run fine. Do you think that woman is going to buy another fridge freezer from your shop? Take a wild, wild guess. Well, with that attitude, yes. You're the problem. You could easily be AR'ed for unfair use of sim resources if you use the kind of script memory your post implies. I'm going to say it again. Good does not equal laggy. Laggy does not make something good. There are plenty of expensive, high and low priced, great quality products in SL that don't have 200 resize scripts in them, or sensors firing off every .001 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasya Sciavo Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 .......are you for real?!?!? I can be AR'd for using something LL are perfectly happy to take my money for?? This just gets better and better. Then I consider it most prudent for you to convince LL to ban all such prim heavy things at once. They should not allow the sale of any such things if that is - which of course it is not - the sole cause of lag in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Patton Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Kasya Sciavo wrote: Well, now.....is that right, huh? The people who spend money on nice, fairly expensive avatar accesories are to blame? Am, I getting this right, here? No, you actually got that extremely wrong. The analogies were way off base, too. The problem is that there's not really enough information presented to SL users abotu a host of things. Over-use of scripts causes problems. Right from the very first day LL oepned SL to the public, this should have been made clear, with content creators encouraged to pose the memory useage of their scripts on their advertising images. SL should have a built in way of seeing script counts in avatars, individual avatar attachments, and individual objects around them. Tools should have also been provided to help scripters create more efficient scripts. These tools should have been improved over time. IF all that had occured, then it would be up to the userbase to be smart about their purchases and script use. It still is up to regular users to a degree, however LL has not made it easy for them, so most are entirely oblivious to the issue. Similar note, overuse of large textures causes both framerate and latency issues (another form of "lag), yet people use 512x512 and 1024x1024 textures for practically everything! The rampant up-scaling of content in SL causes similar problems. Since it takes a lot more prims to create a house at double scale than the same house at 1=1 scale, you basically get a less detailed SL with many more polygons being rendered than that same house done to proper scale. But people are forced to up-scale by LL starting everyone with misshapen 7' tall giants for avatars, and then hoisting the SL camera up a couple metres over our heads. AO sets with high numbers of animations lead to latency issues, too, since every new animation needs to be streamed to every avatar around you. Particle "poofers"? "Bling"? Poorly scripted items that listen to chat channels thus needing to run every time something is said in chat? All these things contribute to "lag". in one way, another, or several ways. It's ridiculous that LL just expects everyone to be aware of all this. Definitely a failure of the "fast, easy, fun" ideology Philip espoused a year ago. Hopefully they'll begin to correct that eventually, in the mean time it helps no one to get defensive when presented with these hard, inarguable truths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasya Sciavo Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Nice post, Penny. As always you are often the voice of reason. However, what then is the solution if - as you appear to imply - the SL grid is simply great, and we all need to be like noobs to move freely in a virtual world some of us pay a fair bit for that privilege? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Patton Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Kasaya, You are right that it's a ridiculous situation, no argument here. But the comments in this thread that have you so riled up are actually spot-on. There actually is plenty of extremely well made contenet in SL that does not suck up sim resources, the problem is that few people are knowledgeable about these issues, what to avoid and where to shop. To correct your "refrigerator" analogy, it's as if you bought a fridge which seems to do everything you want it to, but ever since installing it your power bill has quadrupled. When you call the power company to ask about it, they send someone over to inspect your house for problems and discover the fridge using so much energy wastefully and suggest you replace the fridge. At that point, is your quarrel with the power company? The inspector? Or maybe the person who made such a power hog of a fridge when there are other refrigerators out there that do the exact same thing without raising your power fil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Kasya Sciavo wrote: Nice post, Penny. As always you are often the voice of reason. However, what then is the solution if - as you appear to imply - the SL grid is simply great, and we all need to be like noobs to move freely in a virtual world some of us pay a fair bit for that privilege? You can walk around looking like a noob if you want, but people that actually bothered to read the posts in this thread will know to just go shopping at stores that sell high quality items that cause minimal lag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Ahren Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Penny Patton wrote: AO sets with high numbers of animations lead to latency issues, too, since every new animation needs to be streamed to every avatar around you. What about dancing? Practically every club or hangout place has a dance ball. Doesn't streaming the dance animation to every surrounding avatar cause substantial lag? Couldn't clubs eliminate a lot of lag by getting rid of the dance balls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasya Sciavo Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I would get a new fridge, Penny. I think a fair few people are going to be doing just that, too, unless LL make some improvements fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Patton Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Kasya Sciavo wrote: Nice post, Penny. As always you are often the voice of reason. However, what then is the solution if - as you appear to imply - the SL grid is simply great, and we all need to be like noobs to move freely in a virtual world some of us pay a fair bit for that privilege? No, this is not the case either. There ARE great shops out there selling well made content that does everything you'd want, and does it well, without hogging sim resources. As people have pointed out, there are single script resizers with delete options. There is moddable hair, shoes, etcetrera that can be resized without scripts at all! You can put together a fantastic AO that doesn't cycle through a dozen unique standing poses, a stock ZHAO-II AO only adds like 14kb of script memory to your script use. My usual avatar has about 17 scripts and uses around 500-600kb of script memory compared to the average avatar who uses more like 5,000kb, or the problem avatars using 10-60,000kb. I think 90,000kb script memory was the most I've seen worn by a single avatar. In the case of most avatars, this script hogging is being done by scripts the person may be entirely unaware of! Unfortunately, that means trying to be aware of these issues, learning what shops are good, which ones to avoid. Avoid no-mod items, avoid bling scripts and scripted items that have you say commands out loud so everyone can hear. I agree that it should not be this difficult for the average user, there is plenty that could be done to make this easier. LL seems to be making a lot of strides lately, maybe this will be on their agenda? I can think of plenty LL could do to help even the most casual of SL users make more informed avatar/shopping choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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