Scylla Rhiadra Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 13 minutes ago, PheebyKatz said: Hanging out with Mr. Arik. Mr. Arik was incredibly kind and helpful to me once not too long ago, and I will forever be grateful to him. He's lovely. He's also extended me an open invitation for a tour, which I am going to take him up on, soon, damn it! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheebyKatz Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Mr. Arik was incredibly kind and helpful to me once not too long ago, and I will forever be grateful to him. He's lovely. He's also extended me an open invitation for a tour, which I am going to take him up on, soon, damn it! He's one of my two friends online that I consider a family person, and the only person in SL who knows my typist's real name and home address. So yeah, he shows up, I drop down and say hi. We're real friends. Caught one of those rare midair sunsets. When I put the camera away, it was already gone. I love SL. Edited January 12 by PheebyKatz 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagnu Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Reflection probes have relatively few parameters to play with in the current system: shape (box or sphere), "dynamics" (will it capture "skinned" objects like avatars in reflections), and "near clip" (if there is an object or something in the middle you don't want captured in reflections, as for instance a central pillar). The one that really impacts on lighting is "ambiance," which allows you to adjust the amount of "ambient" i.e., "reflected" light that appears within the probe. The value of the ambiance determines whether, for instance, the interior of the probe is darker than the exterior EEP lighting: it can reduce the amount of lighting from the EEP (and determines how much of this blends with local lighting -- projectors and point lights) but it doesn't change the quality of the light. If the ambient lighting is lower within the probe, that will likely reduce the "shininess" just by virtue of the fact that there is less light reflecting off the surface. But it doesn't really change the effect. All you're really doing is making it darker. The other thing is that, for the vast majority of instances, reflection probes are only going to be applied to interior spaces. I can imagine rare cases where you might want to apply them to an exterior space, but generally you're expected to use EEP settings for that instead. Maybe? I've never heard this suggested, but I suppose it's possible? What I didn't understand about reflection probes until I watched the end of the tutorial, is that we are meant to be INSIDE them. I was thinking of an old school static HDRI light probe, where it was basically turned inside out and applied to the environment, and used as a projector. If I understand this correctly, this is a more advanced version, which can be dynamic as well. My first question was: "How do we get the probe to project light inwards?". The mirror I made for Caitlin's vanity captured my image quite nicely. But, results can vary depending on...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 23 minutes ago, Bagnu said: What I didn't understand about reflection probes until I watched the end of the tutorial, is that we are meant to be INSIDE them. I was thinking of an old school static HDRI light probe, where it was basically turned inside out and applied to the environment, and used as a projector. If I understand this correctly, this is a more advanced version, which can be dynamic as well. My first question was: "How do we get the probe to project light inwards?". The mirror I made for Caitlin's vanity captured my image quite nicely. But, results can vary depending on...? A reflection probe isn't really "projecting" light -- rather, it's filtering EEP light (and local lights if you configure it to do so). I haven't tried this, but I don't think you can make the interior of a room brighter than the EEP outside, for instance: this is ambient light, rather than a light source, as such. But you can of course use local lights within one. Indeed, if you're reducing the ambient light and making the interior very much darker than the EEP, you'll need to add local lighting, or you'll be wandering around in the gloom. One of the big changes that PBR will potentially bring to SL is the need for interior lighting, where it wasn't necessary before. The "reflection" part of the equation is a bit different: as I understand it (and I'm happy to be corrected!) it captures a 360% image of the interior (only) of the probe, and then applies that to reflective surfaces, such as metallic objects and mirrors. To appear within a mirror, for instance, the object therefore needs to be inside the reflection probe. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiyumei Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Mr. Arik was incredibly kind and helpful to me once not too long ago, and I will forever be grateful to him. He's lovely. He's also extended me an open invitation for a tour, which I am going to take him up on, soon, damn it! We're waiting 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietEventide Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I haven't been in SL lately but I found this in my photo drawer. Life is what happens to us while we're busy making other plans. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagnu Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 7 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: A reflection probe isn't really "projecting" light -- rather, it's filtering EEP light (and local lights if you configure it to do so). I haven't tried this, but I don't think you can make the interior of a room brighter than the EEP outside, for instance: this is ambient light, rather than a light source, as such. But you can of course use local lights within one. Indeed, if you're reducing the ambient light and making the interior very much darker than the EEP, you'll need to add local lighting, or you'll be wandering around in the gloom. One of the big changes that PBR will potentially bring to SL is the need for interior lighting, where it wasn't necessary before. The "reflection" part of the equation is a bit different: as I understand it (and I'm happy to be corrected!) it captures a 360% image of the interior (only) of the probe, and then applies that to reflective surfaces, such as metallic objects and mirrors. To appear within a mirror, for instance, the object therefore needs to be inside the reflection probe. Right, and this is where I have to learn that what I take for granted in 3DSMAX doesn't necessarily apply in SL. I find it very annoying that EEP reaches inside everything. I made an enclosed structure. EEP reaches right in. And I had to create a prim light in order to get a shadow on the floor. Which is also annoying. So hopefully, we WILL have to have interior lighting. I want my interiors pitch black if there are no windows or lights. We don't actually have to be inside the reflection probe to get a mirror to work. I made my probe semi-transparent to show how I positioned it for Caitlin's vanity mirror. I selected the face of her vanity mirror when I moved the probe into it. Size and position affected the reflection perspective. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagnu Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 (edited) And this IS interesting. A PBR material, as compared to a standard one, shows a lot more surface detail. I used the exact same "base colour" and "normals" on both copies of a rock and I had made. The rivets are clearly visible as such in the PBR material, but wash out in the standard version. There are four on both rocks. Edited January 12 by Bagnu 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 9 minutes ago, Bagnu said: And this IS interesting. A PBR material, as compared to a standard one, shows a lot more surface detail. I used the exact same "base colour" and "normals" on both copies of a rock and I had made. The rivets are clearly visible as such in the PBR material, but wash out in the standard version. There are four on both rocks. If you were using a purpose-created Blinn-Phong diffuse map, with the AO baked in, rather than the same base colour map for both, I'd expect to see the rivets stand out better: PBR materials separate those functions into different maps, at least one of which -- metallic -- won't be present in the base colour texture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheebyKatz Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 11 hours ago, Aiyumei said: We're waiting Just don't tell her about the traps in the dungeon, that's supposed to be a surprise. Keep it on the down-low~ 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagnu Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: If you were using a purpose-created Blinn-Phong diffuse map, with the AO baked in, rather than the same base colour map for both, I'd expect to see the rivets stand out better: PBR materials separate those functions into different maps, at least one of which -- metallic -- won't be present in the base colour texture. I don't know if Substance Painter supports Blinn-Phong export. I have to look into that. I used SP to create the material, and it's UV mapped to the rock specifically. I hand painted the rock. I assembled the outputs with GLTF Packer. So I have all the individual textures/maps. Edited January 12 by Bagnu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bagnu said: I don't know if Substance Painter supports Blinn-Phong export. I have to look into that. I used SP to create the material, and it's UV mapped to the rock specifically. I hand painted the rock. I assembled the outputs with GLTF Packer. So I have all the individual textures/maps. This is actually a useful illustration of what some have noted elsewhere in other threads here: that the PBR Albedo (base colour) texture is not the same as a Blinn-Phong diffuse texture -- and that simply using the Albedo map in place of a diffuse texture is "wrong." So, legacy or Blinn-Phong diffuse textures consist, in most instances, of at least two parts that I know of: the base colour texture and the AO or occlusion map, which is usually baked into the base colour (using something like a blending mode in Photoshop) before uploading. But in PBR, the occlusion map is loaded separately, together with the roughness and metallic maps, into a single map called variously ORM or ARM (occlusion/roughness/metallic or ambient occlusion/roughness/metallic). There is no place to load any of these, including the occlusion map, separately in Blinn-Phong, which is why they (along with some specular and reflection information) need to be baked into the diffuse map. So, using an Albedo or base colour as a diffuse map means that you are omitting the occlusion information that can't otherwise be displayed in legacy textures. (Base colour maps also include one thing that diffuse textures do not: tinting information for metallics. I'm not sure how that works though.) So, to convert a base colour map for use as a Blinn-Phong diffuse texture, you'd want to at least bake the occlusion map into it before uploading it. So in the example below, showing a banner I made from a commercial mesh, you can see the base colour map and occlusion map to the left and in the middle -- they'd be loaded separately for PBR -- and a Blinn-Phong diffuse texture, which is the base colour+baked occlusion, at the far right. God, I'm waaaaay out of my snack bracket on this one, but I think I'm getting it mostly correct! Edited January 12 by Scylla Rhiadra Dropping my "u"s! I've been around pesky Americans too long! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bagnu said: I find it very annoying that EEP reaches inside everything. I made an enclosed structure. EEP reaches right in. And I had to create a prim light in order to get a shadow on the floor. Which is also annoying. So hopefully, we WILL have to have interior lighting. I want my interiors pitch black if there are no windows or lights. If you have shadows enabled, create a box reflection probe of the dimension of that room. That is, push the probes "walls" slightly beyond the inner walls of said room, floor, ceiling and set the Ambiance setting of this probe to 1.0. Edited January 13 by arton Rotaru 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 16 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: A reflection probe isn't really "projecting" light -- rather, it's filtering EEP light (and local lights if you configure it to do so). I haven't tried this, but I don't think you can make the interior of a room brighter than the EEP outside, for instance: this is ambient light, rather than a light source, as such. But you can of course use local lights within one. Indeed, if you're reducing the ambient light and making the interior very much darker than the EEP, you'll need to add local lighting, or you'll be wandering around in the gloom. One of the big changes that PBR will potentially bring to SL is the need for interior lighting, where it wasn't necessary before. The "reflection" part of the equation is a bit different: as I understand it (and I'm happy to be corrected!) it captures a 360% image of the interior (only) of the probe, and then applies that to reflective surfaces, such as metallic objects and mirrors. To appear within a mirror, for instance, the object therefore needs to be inside the reflection probe. This is a reflection probe with the Ambiance set to 100 at Midnight without any light sources inside the room. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 7 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said: This is a reflection probe with the Ambiance set to 100 at Midnight without any light sources inside the room. I notice you took a "screen shot" above instead of a "snapshot" (viewer photo); I only had to do that if I wanted to capture a "mirror effect". Was there something in your setup that would not look the same if you used a "viewer photo" above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: I notice you took a "screen shot" above instead of a "snapshot" (viewer photo); I only had to do that if I wanted to capture a "mirror effect". Was there something in your setup that would not look the same if you used a "viewer photo" above? Nope, it's just a habbit of mine to do the oldschool "Print Key" screenshot and copy it into Photoshop, crop it etc. Mostly because I don't have the snapshot button on screen, and I can't remember the shortcut for it either. 😇 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) @Love Zhaoying Set your probe to dynamic and it should be able to capture a picture of your reflection in your screenshots. Something I had completely overlooked and did not think to try until @Bagnu shared the mirror video. Edit: It will also make viewing your reflection a lot easier as well. If your "reflection detail" in your preferences is not set to real time it will take a few seconds for it to update your image if you step in front of your mirrored surface. Realtime is supposed to take quite a toll on your system though, and I have read multiple times not to leave it on that setting. Edited January 13 by Istelathis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 4 minutes ago, Istelathis said: @Love Zhaoying Set your probe to dynamic and it should be able to capture a picture of your reflection in your screenshots. Something I had completely overlooked and did not think to try until @Bagnu shared the mirror video. I think Love is referring to the screenspace reflections, which aren't captured with the viewers snapshot tool yet. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 10 minutes ago, Istelathis said: @Love Zhaoying Set your probe to dynamic and it should be able to capture a picture of your reflection in your screenshots. Something I had completely overlooked and did not think to try until @Bagnu shared the mirror video. Edit: It will also make viewing your reflection a lot easier as well. If your "reflection detail" in your preferences is not set to real time it will take a few seconds for it to update your image if you step in front of your mirrored surface. Realtime is supposed to take quite a toll on your system though, and I have read multiple times not to leave it on that setting. It was already set to dynamic. I haven't changed it, and it doesn't capture my avatar's reflection still. Let me know if I'm missing something else! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 7 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said: I think Love is referring to the screenspace reflections, which aren't captured with the viewers snapshot tool yet. I believe if screenspace reflections are what I think they are, it actually works. This was taken from inside of the viewer via screenshot, with the reflection probe set to dynamic. The above is with the reflection probe without dynamic selected 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: It was already set to dynamic. I haven't changed it, and it doesn't capture my avatar's reflection still. Let me know if I'm missing something else! I wonder if it is the viewer, I'm running Second Life Release 7.1.2.7215179142 (64bit) and it is working for me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 4 minutes ago, Istelathis said: I believe if screenspace reflections are what I think they are, it actually works. SSR Is independent of reflection probes. It's a separate system for reflections. And if you save out an image taken with the snapshot tool, the reflection is missing in the image. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagnu Posted January 13 Author Share Posted January 13 23 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: This is actually a useful illustration of what some have noted elsewhere in other threads here: that the PBR Albedo (base colour) texture is not the same as a Blinn-Phong diffuse texture -- and that simply using the Albedo map in place of a diffuse texture is "wrong." So, legacy or Blinn-Phong diffuse textures consist, in most instances, of at least two parts that I know of: the base colour texture and the AO or occlusion map, which is usually baked into the base colour (using something like a blending mode in Photoshop) before uploading. But in PBR, the occlusion map is loaded separately, together with the roughness and metallic maps, into a single map called variously ORM or ARM (occlusion/roughness/metallic or ambient occlusion/roughness/metallic). There is no place to load any of these, including the occlusion map, separately in Blinn-Phong, which is why they (along with some specular and reflection information) need to be baked into the diffuse map. So, using an Albedo or base colour as a diffuse map means that you are omitting the occlusion information that can't otherwise be displayed in legacy textures. (Base colour maps also include one thing that diffuse textures do not: tinting information for metallics. I'm not sure how that works though.) So, to convert a base colour map for use as a Blinn-Phong diffuse texture, you'd want to at least bake the occlusion map into it before uploading it. So in the example below, showing a banner I made from a commercial mesh, you can see the base colour map and occlusion map to the left and in the middle -- they'd be loaded separately for PBR -- and a Blinn-Phong diffuse texture, which is the base colour+baked occlusion, at the far right. God, I'm waaaaay out of my snack bracket on this one, but I think I'm getting it mostly correct! LOL!!! I had to reread this a couple of times. I know PBR loads it all separately. Combining in Photoshop can't work, because it will all look like one flat image to SL. There is no way to distinguish a fold in the background curtain from shading if it's a single image combined with PS. I found something called "Quixel" that can supposedly output Blinn-Phong. I haven't found a way in Substance Painter. But honestly, I won't be spending my time creating Blinn-Phong materials, even if I DID find a way, when PBR is the future. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Istelathis said: I wonder if it is the viewer, I'm running Second Life Release 7.1.2.7215179142 (64bit) and it is working for me. I am running Second Life Release 7.1.1.7088410646 (64bit): @Istelathis, just noticed I have an older viewer version. That's weird, I always install when it prompts me, of course! Are you running a special version, or perhaps it just hasn't updated yet for me? Edited January 13 by Love Zhaoying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 40 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said: This is a reflection probe with the Ambiance set to 100 at Midnight without any light sources inside the room. Cool, but weird. So, it's using what settings for the light? Those of the EEP, in this case midnight, but with the gamma or exposure turned up? And does it cast shadows if ambient occlusion is on, as EEP light would? If so, what's the source? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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