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KanryDrago

Would you trade your mesh body for this?

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1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

Its not just about the textures though, animations stretch and move the body in various ways. I have seen people with very good shapes they did for the system body and they look great when standing. Then they go into a pose and well the straight lines become obvious because the polygons arent sufficient density to adequately smooth the curve

 

1 hour ago, Matty Luminos said:

So even with perfect high-res textures, an avatar like this will look like crap as soon as it moves.

 

You don't need a high polycount in order to achieve realistic movement when animating a character model, what you do need is a good underlying topology and an understanding of how to use skin weights to simulate realistic muscle movement.

The model in the images below has a lower polycount than most mesh avatar meshes you'll find in SL and no high quality skin texture yet when animated  it manages to convey more realism than any high poly SL mesh body I've ever seen.

ShldrArmRotationFront.gifShldrArmRotationRear.gif

(Source: http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/ShoulderTopology)

 

No amount of triangles will compensate for a poorly created animation or pose, the only solution for that is to stop buying animations from animators that don't understand the concept of joint constraints.

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2 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Its not just about the textures though, animations stretch and move the body in various ways. I have seen people with very good shapes they did for the system body and they look great when standing. Then they go into a pose and well the straight lines become obvious because the polygons arent sufficient density to adequately smooth the curve

Good point. Because pixelsex must look good enough for eroticism, right? LOL (//just kidding!) In those cases it is very likely the animator did not create the animation properly (they didn't't move ALL the parts that need to move to make a proper motion - swinging the arm is more than just the arm; it's also the shoulder, torso, neck, etc.) But I digress.

My original point is already made, we can all debate the intricacies of a moot subject because we have been past the point of no return in SL for a very, very long time. So what I say, you say, and others say on the subject really is just an exercise in theory at this point.

EDIT TO ADD: @Fluffy Sharkfin just abose this comment demosntrates my point perfectly! Hahahaha, Thanks, Fluffy! (I did not see your post when I wrote this Hahahah)

Edited by Alyona Su
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On 8/11/2019 at 7:38 PM, KanryDrago said:

My answer is obviously that doesnt even come close to my mesh, over to the rest of you

I like how you where unable to start this topic without trying to skew the results in your favor.

From the guy who thinks this looks realistic:

62460494_kanryprofile_001.png.74a0349b74011c1050844980934669d1.thumb.png.aeabb0dc7dbf0dd871000552eb8b6bf8.png

And that this doesn't:

image.png.e3830d4a6a7698c63a3935c70f6085dc.png.f2301fbb8ec8aa7fecd0c3c9dd0d417d.png

 

And there was other examples in that other thread but you HAD to bring that one, despite the fact that it was brought up as a demonstration of good mesh design, and not hyper realism.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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51 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

They all look like crap as soon as they move. 

39d2eade-6ebf-4470-8a67-0f9789610728_1.90386bead1f81b9ad4f7015a4f65d600.jpeg.468195b1fd0f55da34350fa14e354131.jpeg

Very TRUE! I don't see jiggly boobs bouncing off the ground on those ten-gallon jugs I see all the time in SL, nor the wall-bashing thunder-thighs and Zeppelin-Size butts, either. Hmmm... We must all be trained to ignore the insignificant peculiarities of SL. Like when the man bits absolutely do not lined up with the girl bits and stuffs! :D

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15 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I like how you where unable to start this topic without trying to skew the results in your favor.

From the guy who thinks this looks realistic:

62460494_kanryprofile_001.png.74a0349b74011c1050844980934669d1.thumb.png.aeabb0dc7dbf0dd871000552eb8b6bf8.png

And that this doesn't:

image.png.e3830d4a6a7698c63a3935c70f6085dc.png.f2301fbb8ec8aa7fecd0c3c9dd0d417d.png

 

And there was other examples in that other thread but you HAD to bring that one, despite the fact that it was brought up as a demonstration of good mesh design, and not hyper realism.

Which part of that is a photograph that was touched up did you miss? I have repeated that several times and also said animations count more than static poses. Not my fault you fail to understand

 

As I said played with the kind of avatars that digit linked in other games, they dont move realistically all they can compete with is a static standing pose. Big deal. You and your ilk can say it doesnt make a difference all you like but you cannot tell me what matter to me so tough and ll agree because they dont implement your stupid idea

Edited by KanryDrago

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5 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Which part of that is a photograph that was touched up did you miss? I have repeated that several times and also said animations count more than static poses. Not my fault you fail to understand

How is that relevant? I'm merely demonstrating that your judgement shouldn't be taken as face value by anyone with a brain and a pair of somewhat functioning eyes.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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Just now, Kyrah Abattoir said:

How is that relevant? I'm merely demonstrating that your judgement shouldn't be taken as face value by anyone with a brain.

I didnt ask you to take my opinion check the other thread where digit gears assertion that no one would notice is being roundly refuted. Shrugs you merely think you know what is best for the rest of us, some of us disagree get over yourself and your I know best attitude because we don't care

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6 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

I didnt ask you to take my opinion check the other thread where digit gears assertion that no one would notice is being roundly refuted. Shrugs you merely think you know what is best for the rest of us, some of us disagree get over yourself and your I know best attitude because we don't care

I only want what's the best for SL and its Residents as a whole, you want what's the best strictly for yourself.

It's the tragedy of the commons allover again.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir

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4 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I only want what's the best for SL and its Residents as a whole, you want what's the best strictly for yourself.

It's the tragedy of the commons allover again.

Yes and your point is? you dont matter learn to live with it I have

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19 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Yes and your point is?

The point is there's a lot of poorly made content in SL.  Those that know better keep trying to educate those that don't as to what makes "good content" in the hopes that once they're better informed they'll start making smarter purchasing decisions, thereby forcing creators to start creating responsibly.

Unfortunately a lot of the people that don't know any better seem to think that because they spend a lot of money on "bad content" their opinions on what constitutes "good content" should carry as much weight as the opinions of those that do know better, which will never happen because those people... know better!

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52 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

The point is there's a lot of poorly made content in SL.  Those that know better keep trying to educate those that don't as to what makes "good content" in the hopes that once they're better informed they'll start making smarter purchasing decisions, thereby forcing creators to start creating responsibly.

Unfortunately a lot of the people that don't know any better seem to think that because they spend a lot of money on "bad content" their opinions on what constitutes "good content" should carry as much weight as the opinions of those that do know better, which will never happen because those people... know better!

No the point is from the op, that some of those that suggest stuff is bad content is because they view sl in a different way and regard it as "no one will notice the difference because it wouldnt make a difference to me" which i think this thread has shown to be wrong.

I am all for optimisation until it affects my QoL. My objection to optimisation is precisely that. Optimise away, the moment you interfere with my sl QoL you have optimised too far. The picture I posted in the op was suggested by an optimiser as no one would notice a difference. Most posters have said yes we would

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8 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

No the point is from the op, that some of those that suggest stuff is bad content is because they view sl in a different way and regard it as "no one will notice the difference because it wouldnt make a difference to me" which i think this thread has shown to be wrong.

I am all for optimisation until it affects my QoL. My objection to optimisation is precisely that. Optimise away, the moment you interfere with my sl QoL you have optimised too far. The picture I posted in the op was suggested by an optimiser as no one would notice a difference. Most posters have said yes we would

The problem is that you seem to be arguing that having an avatar that looks like this...

image.png.e3830d4a6a7698c63a3935c70f6085

and moves like this...

ShldrArmRotationFront.gif

is somehow going to adversely effect your SL QoL.

If you can look at these two images in comparison with most SL content and honestly say that you think SL content creators have no room for improvement when it comes to optimization and rigging/animation, then I guess we really are living in two completely different virtual worlds!

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1 minute ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

It's meant as an example, rather than literally that specific mesh!  :|

as opposed to...? what? the thousands of meshes they're ripping from that game and other games that people are making L$ off of right now?

Edited by MissMagicCakes

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1 minute ago, MissMagicCakes said:

as opposed to...? what? the thousands of meshes they're ripping from that game and other games that people are making L$ off of right now?

Hi, welcome to the thread!  Since you seem unfamiliar with the topic being discussed let me fill you in.  It's a discussion about what content creators COULD do to improve their content without having a detrimental effect on the visual quality of the content they're creating. 

If you're looking for threads that deal with the subject of the morality of creating original content vs stealing content from other games/platforms you'll find there are plenty of those too. 

Alternatively you can attempt to derail this thread and discuss the subject here, in which case I'll probably end up agreeing with you a lot because I'm very much opposed to ripped content in SL myself.

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Just now, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Hi, welcome to the thread!  Since you seem unfamiliar with the topic being discussed let me fill you in.  It's a discussion about what content creators COULD do to improve their content without having a detrimental effect on the visual quality of the content they're creating. 

If you're looking for threads that deal with the subject of the morality of creating original content vs stealing content from other games/platforms you'll find there are plenty of those too. 

Alternatively you can attempt to derail this thread and discuss the subject here, in which case I'll probably end up agreeing with you a lot because I'm very much opposed to ripped content in SL myself.

yeah I get the gist of what everyones saying: "Just use a model from another game!" wich is illegal.

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4 minutes ago, MissMagicCakes said:

yeah I get the gist of what everyones saying: "Just use a model from another game!" wich is illegal.

No. What some people are saying (and others are vehemently disagreeing with) is that you don't have to use hundreds of thousands of triangles to create a good looking character mesh that can be animated realistically.  So far the only mention of using stolen content has been in your own posts.

ETA. As a matter of fact if your aim were to create a mesh avatar that animates realistically in SL the very last thing you should do is try to use a character mesh from another game.  The topology would be designed to work with a completely different rig which would make skin weights an absolute nightmare to get right and would still look terrible compared to a mesh that has had its topology designed to work with the SL avatar rig!

Edited by Fluffy Sharkfin

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Just now, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

No. What some people are saying (and others are vehemently disagreeing with) is that you don't have to use hundreds of thousands of triangles to create a good looking character mesh that can be animated realistically.  So far the only mention of using stolen content has been in your own posts.

they litterally posted a picture of a yasuo mesh model and said "would you change to this?!" and honestly I'm not even getting that from everyone elses posts either. its just pictures of stolen models and "MuH pOlYgOnS"

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2 minutes ago, MissMagicCakes said:

they litterally posted a picture of a yasuo mesh model and said "would you change to this?!" and honestly I'm not even getting that from everyone elses posts either. its just pictures of stolen models and "MuH pOlYgOnS"

Sorry, I'm not going to explain the meaning of the word "example" to you, go google it!

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3 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Sorry, I'm not going to explain the meaning of the word "example" to you, go google it!

and we have stated time and again why static examples dont work. The sl avi doesnt work with animations because it doesnt have enough polygons it moves like an automaton. The examples which are also static or limited animation prove nothing. The person that posted the original image is an "let optimise everything no one will notice the difference between my original image and what they have now" The fact he has since posted more detailed avi's shouldnt detract from the fact he considered the first one "No one will notice a difference" ie his opinion is suspect

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1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

and we have stated time and again why static examples dont work. The sl avi doesnt work with animations because it doesnt have enough polygons it moves like an automaton. The examples which are also static or limited animation prove nothing. The person that posted the original image is an "let optimise everything no one will notice the difference between my original image and what they have now" The fact he has since posted more detailed avi's shouldnt detract from the fact he considered the first one "No one will notice a difference" ie his opinion is suspect

The person that posted that image has already said that he did so because that is his personal preference style-wise.  He then provided further examples of less stylized and more realistic character models (all of which you seem to want to conveniently ignore so you can harp on about the first image and how much you dislike the aesthetic).

As far as animation goes, if you don't like that particular animated gif I suggest you follow the link I posted and read some of the articles, even better do a google search and learn a little about what IS possible rather than just declaring something is impossible simply because you haven't seen anyone do it properly in SL yet.

The ceiling for quality of content is NOT defined by "the best stuff you've seen in SL", and if you try to argue from the position that it is you aren't going to win the hearts or minds of anyone that's taken the time to research what CAN be done.

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23 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

and we have stated time and again why static examples dont work. The sl avi doesnt work with animations because it doesnt have enough polygons it moves like an automaton. The examples which are also static or limited animation prove nothing. The person that posted the original image is an "let optimise everything no one will notice the difference between my original image and what they have now" The fact he has since posted more detailed avi's shouldnt detract from the fact he considered the first one "No one will notice a difference" ie his opinion is suspect

I never called it my original image, it was just simply among the first examples I could fine of a character model paired with it's wireframe for the point I was trying to make, and my opinion has been very consistent, nothin 'suspect' bout it.

We don't need to slap 10 layers of subdivide on a model to make it look or animate good, you can easily achieve that with less from cartoony to realism. Having a million polygons in your ass isn't going to stop it from caving in when your avatar is doing the splits, because we simply lack the extra bones to fluidly animate the body to such an extent. 

All we can do is do the best we can with weight painting and well made flow of topology, but even then, you might be able to get those hot demon vampire buns to have the best lookin patootie in the bloodlines kingdom when sitting down, but that doesn't mean it'll look good when it's twisted and bent in other directions. That's an unfortunate downside when it comes to making bodies and limbs, while it's good to try and account for any possible angle, twist, etc your model might be put through, you can't get it all.

And slapping on more and more and more and more and more polygons is a lazy band-aid solution.

When it comes down to it, the face is often the only part that can be reasonably more higher poly since it needs to be able to animate. but the whole body doesn't need as much except for mostly around the joints to help them from caving in on each other when the limbs bend about, but beyond that you can easily cut down on excess topology around the rest of the body with little notice. And course, I'm not saying it has to look like it was fresh out of a PS2 game, just be smart about it.

Edited by Digit Gears
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