Would you trade your mesh body for this?

[NeevaBecketEmagan]

If I would change body for a highly optimized one that will not lag like hell and don't try to kill my GPU with work of people that think SL is a rendering farm, of course I'll do!
This is what I'm doing too, I'm studying human topology for a long time, to get the best result with less polygons possible (and because I work with game dev in RL).

And not only body, clothes, hair, everything. A game character nowadays have between 15K to 40K, including clothes, hair, etc. Did you saw the amazing work in the last Lara Croft games? Her latest models don't have even half of the polygons SL models have (and I'm counting only the polygons in the first layer of SL mesh body, not the rest of the onion)

I know I'll receive some eggs in the face for what I'll say now:

Even with 100K polys a lot of models here looks like crap. I got once a male mesh body with 70K polys, and the elbow was bending like the arms of the old Disney animated movies, or, better, the game Cuphead, to have a good example. A crappy rubber arm with tons of polygons with loop cuts in the wrong places, while games can do an amazing elbow joint that bends like a proper elbow with much less polygons. And as Digit said, with things in the right places.

I stopped to buy clothes because I was getting high polys things with crappy rigging. Looks like people is lazy and wants to produce a lot. Just make the cloth in Marvelous, add details in ZBrush, throw an auto rigging in a 3D software, send this high poly to SL putting all other LODs to 0, and done. Good thing I usually walk away from crowds and end seeing just a single triangle of your amazing high detailed leather jacket with realistic zipper. Yes, retopology, baking and proper texturing can take days depending of the model, and needs a lot of creativity - and knowledge too - to get a perfect result with less. I just hope creators start to spend more time doing the right thing one day. It will not kill your creativity, as I saw in another topic months ago, it will make you even more creative.

Sometimes I walk around with wireframe rendering on, just to see how crazy the models are. And I just start saying to myself: "look, the triangles pattern from a mesh exported from Marvelous! Ewww!". Yes, I'm that crazy.

The lag and the low FPS will only diminish when creators finally understand and accept that SL isn't a rendering software, it works like a game engine (because it is technically a game engine). Rendering of realistic things with perfect light, good textures, no "pointy corners" thanks to a massive 100K polys body can take from some seconds to several minutes, even with the newest Eevee render from Blender (that is real-time). Who did it in any 3D software knows it. A game engine needs to render everything in the camera view (and a bit off-view too) in a speed of 60 frames per second, to get a smooth result. Now try to compress a realistic render that take seconds into a single frame that is 60/1 of a second. My GPU starts to scream only by thinking about it (and is not a crappy one, btw). And I'll not even start talking about hairs.

And yes, when BoM is released - and I hope they release it soon or I'll steal all LL donuts - , I'll release my "game ready" low mesh bodies too, humans, aliens, creatures, everything I do. My GPU will be glad. It's not the number of polygons that counts, is the knowledge. I prefer a low poly mesh body with a good work with the normal maps, proper rigging made in a proper topology, and a good work on texturing, instead of a 100K thing that will just cut my experience here, because I will need to put graphics low to not end with another fried GPU.

The picture I put here is one of my studies in topology. I still have a lot of work and refinement to do on it. Hope it don't go more than 20K tris (not polys, tris) when finished. Actually it has 5192.

My actual avatar is a little alien I did. And yes, I modeled the dragonborn clothes it wear from scratch, not just getting from the game. And, yes, I rip models from games, to see how they were done and learn with what was done, the tricks used to get a good optimization.

PS: it applies to everything, not only bodies. Even to that gacha animesh little cat a friend got and discovered it was eating 150 prims of her land.

 

[Cackle Amore]

@NeevaBecketEmagan Be sure you got your UV's set up that it can fit into three slots max if ya want to hook it up into the skin layer with BoM, assuming you got a custom UV.

[NeevaBecketEmagan]

1 minute ago, Digit Gears said:

@NeevaBecketEmagan Be sure you got your UV's set up that it can fit into three slots max if ya want to hook it up into the skin layer with BoM, assuming you got a custom UV.

Yep, it is what I'm doing, just the 3 system slots for body (head, upper, and lower), and the eyes, nothing more, and using a custom UV.

[Cackle Amore]

I got my own avatar I been working on split into two main parts 

Outside of SL I'd normally try and stick em both together on one, but with the modding and splicing together nature of SL, I feel some splitting apart doesn't hurt so they can be used standalone from one another.

[P.S, the head UV is smaller than the body, just a bit sized up to squeeze in together]

Edited August 13, 2019 by Digit Gears

[NeevaBecketEmagan]

My alien. Still refining it. Split in 5 parts, because of the eyes, but probably will end with 3: body (using upper body slot), head, and eyes.

In the pic of it in SL the hands are stiff because I was using AO from another avatar (was too lazy that day to make my own animations)

Edited August 13, 2019 by NeevaBecketEmagan
Forgot to put big final pic of alien

[Cackle Amore]

Also, something I tend to do, if I'm a bit pinched for space on the UV, I'll shrink down sections for the less important parts

[NeevaBecketEmagan]

Just now, Digit Gears said:

Also, something I tend to do, if I'm a bit pinched for space on the UV, I'll shrink down sections for the less important parts

Yes, this is what the pros at modeling does: less important takes less space. I do it a lot.

Your avatar is nice, I saw it in the creators meeting. Not as a colored gummy like others (i put avatar rendering in very low complexity here).

[Cackle Amore]

1 minute ago, NeevaBecketEmagan said:

Yes, this is what the pros at modeling does: less important takes less space. I do it a lot.

Your avatar is nice, I saw it in the creators meeting. Not as a colored gummy like others (i put avatar rendering in very low complexity here).

You'd have to manually derender me even at the lowest 😉

[kiramanell]

19 hours ago, AnyaJurelle said:

I'm a girl. Trust me, I'd notice the difference.

 

^^ You just won this thread! 🥰

[kiramanell]

4 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Sorry, I'm not going to explain the meaning of the word "example" to you, go google it!

 

Why, could you at least give an example of the word 'example'?! Like use it in a sentence, for example. 😛 

[Theresa Tennyson]

17 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Its not just about the textures though, animations stretch and move the body in various ways. I have seen people with very good shapes they did for the system body and they look great when standing. Then they go into a pose and well the straight lines become obvious because the polygons arent sufficient density to adequately smooth the curve

The big problem with the default avatar is the way it's rigged. Parts of it aren't set up to have enough influence from the various bones of the skeleton so it doesn't "stretch" naturally the way human muscle and skin does.

Some time ago someone set up a re-rigged version that looks and moves much better with exactly the same polygons but the Lab didn't want to change that rigging to the default because of existing content.

This JIRA explains it: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1800

[AerisDevious]

No I wouldn't trade ,the avatar from ''LoL'' Cleary is  one peace with clothing  same as hair which I would see  a issue .Cause I'm person who likes to change outfit pretty often.

[Branduff Bisnovat]

Since you clearly started this thread as an attempt at derision, no I don't want to look like a static LoL character in a T-Pose and I'm so happy for you that people agreed with you, so very happy for you. /s

You intentionally missed their points on optimization and 3D design in general.  No one suggested that you shouldn't be able to change your clothes, gender, or hair.  This entire argument is completely manufactured.  Sorry you're so offended by the fact that the bodies we spent too much on are a total waste of triangles and are in no way competitive with 3D design standards for games, but hey, we did it at our own discretion did we not?

[Sprout Evergarden]

i would not go near that avi in OP's post somting about it makes my "asset rip will be DMCAd in a month" alarm bells go off.

[KanryDrago]

19 hours ago, Branduff Bisnovat said:

Since you clearly started this thread as an attempt at derision, no I don't want to look like a static LoL character in a T-Pose and I'm so happy for you that people agreed with you, so very happy for you. /s

You intentionally missed their points on optimization and 3D design in general.  No one suggested that you shouldn't be able to change your clothes, gender, or hair.  This entire argument is completely manufactured.  Sorry you're so offended by the fact that the bodies we spent too much on are a total waste of triangles and are in no way competitive with 3D design standards for games, but hey, we did it at our own discretion did we not?

I no where said they couldnt change clothes hair or gender, I even referenced the thread where the poster of this picture made the claim no one would notice. People were quite welcome to check up on what he exactly said. I did not anticipate people not using their brains and thinking they couldnt change clothes hair or gender. It was a simple would you trade this mesh body for your. I never claimed any of the other things.

To add the confusion probably comes from this thread was originally in the same forum as the claims were made and was moved here by mods though the original thread wasnt which makes it slightly disconnected

Edited August 14, 2019 by KanryDrago

[Alyona Su]

8 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

I no where said they couldnt change clothes hair or gender, I even referenced the thread where the poster of this picture made the claim no one would notice. People were quite welcome to check up on what he exactly said. I did not anticipate people not using their brains and thinking they couldnt change clothes hair or gender. It was a simple would you trade this mesh body for your. I never claimed any of the other things.

To add the confusion probably comes from this thread was originally in the same forum as the claims were made and was moved here by mods though the original thread wasnt which makes it slightly disconnected

//startrant

It is because schools have been failing for years; they teach people how to read words, but not how to comprehend words and then apply context to words based on the construction of a sentence. People read word by word by word rather than sentences and after a few words they throw up their hands and skip the rest of a paragraph. It is prevalent across the Internet and these forums and this very thread highlights the visibility of this aspect more brightly and in the forefront than anywhere else in these forums.

It clearly explains why there are so many "arguments" in so many threads; people are reading, but not comprehending. I believe it's not a cognizance issue, but rather a patience issue. People do not want to take the time to allow context to formulate, compounded with people using the wrong words to describe their ideas, etc.

Not everyone, of course. But if you take any of this personally, then it likely applies to you, dear reader.

//endrant

Edited August 14, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Branduff Bisnovat]

@KanryDrago  Sorry for being like that.  I should have been paying more attention and it's never appropriate to be so rude.

4 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

It clearly explains why there are so many "arguments" in so many threads; people are reading, but not comprehending. I believe it's not a cognizance issue, but rather a patience issue. People do not want to take the time to allow context to formulate, compounded with people using the wrong words to describe their ideas, etc.

Yeah you nailed it.  I should do less skimming and more listening.  Also maybe just avoid posting when I'm in such a sour mood as I was at the time.

[Alyona Su]

4 minutes ago, Branduff Bisnovat said:

@KanryDrago  Sorry for being like that.  I should have been paying more attention and it's never appropriate to be so rude.

Yeah you nailed it.  I should do less skimming and more listening.  Also maybe just avoid posting when I'm in such a sour mood as I was at the time.

I have fallen into this same "trap" myself and a three-day suspension from the forums (and in-world, even when I still feel it is unjustified) has never made me angry or even frustrated, but has felt like a firm wagging of a finger and I have always considered it a "time-out" period.  Sometimes we just need to have a third-party wag a finger at us to help clear our heads. I prefer not by the Lindens, though (I am fortunate that they have never awarded me Naughty points, yet, though - so I try to be careful.)

And kudos to you for owning up! I try to do that also when it's right to do and it ain't easy. So you get a big hug from me!

[KanryDrago]

9 minutes ago, Branduff Bisnovat said:

@KanryDrago  Sorry for being like that.  I should have been paying more attention and it's never appropriate to be so rude.

Yeah you nailed it.  I should do less skimming and more listening.  Also maybe just avoid posting when I'm in such a sour mood as I was at the time.

No problem easy enough to get the wrong impression we have all done it

[Scylla Rhiadra]

GROUP HUG!!!!

[Nalates Urriah]

There is always that pesky "implied" versus "inferred" thing. The ambiguity of English mixed with both the speaker's and listener's assumptions make it amazing that anyone communicates.

Alyona is right about patience being a factor. I'll add attitude as another significant factor. Our media builds attitude for the politically correct ideas in their diversity, which requires amazing conformity. We see the inculcated ideas and styles of disagreement modeled in the media playing out here in styles of communication.

I am just amazed at how few notice.

I am keeping my SL Mesh Body. Thank you. There are numerous other games with interesting bodies and character customization interfaces. Some make possible amazing characters. None are as diverse as the SL body. Remember. There is only ONE body in SL. All bodies in SL are based on the same body... skeleton... armature. So, while the SL body is not the best possible, it does seem to be the most versatile. That versatility requires more generality and less specificity. Which makes it less than optimal in many ways.

SL also provides the freedom for anyone to make whatever they want. That novices don't understand the nuances of professional game design is a pain for some. But, freedom is itself a pain to many. In considering what to do to improve SL performance most people exclude the ideas of design freedom and beginner inclusion from their plans.

I would not trade it for the one in the OP. I'm not that disappointed in viewer performance. Each year the graphics cards get better and render more polys per second (yeah, that's not the measure any more). What is killing me is the script load I carry to keep my hands and face animated. Then there is all the work I have to go to get the script weight down. Create hands and feet with the right color polish and rings then make a copy for the outfit and remove the scripts... get the body appliers applied and the alpha cuts cut for the outfit then remove those scripts from a copy... AND ZMOG! the 14MB of scripts in my *****...   And those 10 textures 1024x1024px used for my nails...

And I am supposed to think polygons are the problem? I think we have way more serious issues to deal with. BoM is nearly here and it should take the poly count down as designers reduce the onion layer count. Then we will see if poly are the problem people say.  ...but then I am used to the media lying to me. So, I am skeptical of everything.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

I am keeping my SL Mesh Body. Thank you. There are numerous other games with interesting bodies and character customization interfaces. Some make possible amazing characters. None are as diverse as the SL body. Remember. There is only ONE body in SL. All bodies in SL are based on the same body... skeleton... armature. So, while the SL body is not the best possible, it does seem to be the most versatile. That versatility requires more generality and less specificity. Which makes it less than optimal in many ways.

 

The "SL Mesh Body" you're referring is no more than a part of the "SL body" you also refer to than your RL hat is part of your RL body. What you're calling the "SL Mesh Body" is a cobbled-together system of attachments that works a certain way for a certain set of reasons and is currently the de facto standard, but it's neither the only way of doing things nor even the best way of doing things if an avatar system was developed from scratch. Things like alpha cuts and layers are complex kludges as you yourself acknowledge.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

GROUP HUG!!!!

I missed it!

 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Branduff Bisnovat said:

Also maybe just avoid posting when I'm in such a sour mood as I was at the time.

If we had to wait for a proper mood, some of us would never post!

[Alyona Su]

I also reiterate that this entire thread and all discussion within is moot; an excercise in theories because SL is way past the point of no return, unless everything on the grid were wiped out and we start anew.