Cashout Fees To Rise to 5%

[Naiman Broome]

I do not understand why LL is so focused in Killing SL by attacking the ones that create content ingame!

Without Merchants what would be SL?

Without Creators what would be SL?

Increasing 5% to a no limit feee , it passed from 1,5 to 5% in a two years!!!

I mean then you have to account that even paypal cuts another 3,5% on conversion fees.

Then there are VAT , that in my country at least takes another 25% !

So whats resulting in the end ?

I am really pissed to this habit of milking the cows instead of improving popularity and quality of the platform they point to milk the content creators that are keeping the platform on!

And what's worst you have no way to communicate your disappointment to LL as they just blindly take their decisions without care of inquire on the Merchants!

 

[Mollymews]

17 minutes ago, Naiman Broome said:

Without Merchants what would be SL?

Without Creators what would be SL?

these are really good questions. I give a different posit to consider

Without Merchants what would be SL?  it would be like Minecraft in terms of daily user numbers

Without Creators what would be SL?  A different posit is that it would be like Minecraft in terms of the numbers of daily users making stuff just because they can

the different posit is that the future potential user numbers growth of SL was crippled on the day that residents were given the ability to take money out of the game

[Fox Wijaya]

25 minutes ago, Naiman Broome said:

I mean then you have to account that even paypal cuts another 3,5% on conversion fees.

Then there are VAT , that in my country at least takes another 25% !

no not at all, that's not in control of LL... contact Paypal or your government for those.

[Naiman Broome]

5 minutes ago, Fox Wijaya said:

no not at all, that's not in control of LL... contact Paypal or your government for those.

OFC is not in control of LL , it just explains that to the 5% you have to add 3.5% of PP and 25% of your country on an already cut payment of -5%.

[Fox Wijaya]

Just now, Naiman Broome said:

OFC is not in control of LL , it just explains that to the 5% you have to add 3.5% of PP and 25% of your country on an already cut payment of -5%.

in fact by the raising fee of LL you pay less to paypal and less taxes...
but seriously, external costs are of no relevance in this discussion, for you those are, but it's only about what is in control of LL. .. it's the same as when having a regular job and you have to pay social fees/taxes, those are not in control by your boss.

[Naiman Broome]

Just now, Fox Wijaya said:

in fact by the raising fee of LL you pay less to paypal and less taxes...
but seriously, external costs are of no relevance in this discussion, for you those are, but it's only about what is in control of LL. .. it's the same as when having a regular job and you have to pay social fees/taxes, those are not in control by your boss.

You don't pay less, you pay the same !

In countries politicians try to reduce taxes to allow the development of their countries and spread of businness... LL is like the government of SL , increasing taxes ( beacuse they rised also the premium membership costs from 75 to 99! ) increasing 5% and puttng no limit to it will damage the SL industry !

[Fox Wijaya]

2 minutes ago, Naiman Broome said:

You don't pay less, you pay the same !

of course not.
now you get from every 100 dollars in sl a transfer of 97.5 dollar and pay the fees and taxes
in the new setting you get 95 of the dollars in sl and pay the fees and taxes. ..
so your tax and fees get less.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Fox Wijaya

[Naiman Broome]

Just now, Fox Wijaya said:

of course not.
now you get from every 100 dollars in sl a transfer of 97.5 dollar and pay the fees and taxes
in the new setting you get 95 of the dollars in sl an pay the fees and taxes. ..
so your tax and fees get less.

Nope if you need to retire the same amout as b4 you will retire 105 and not 97.5.

[Mollymews]

1 minute ago, Naiman Broome said:

Nope if you need to retire the same amout as b4 you will retire 105 and not 97.5.

that's correct yes

[Fox Wijaya]

Just now, Naiman Broome said:

Nope if you need to retire the same amout as b4 you will retire 105 and not 97.5.

it is NOT about getting the same amount, you confuse things. It's only about the raise of fees, NOT the net result on your rl bank.
The only thing what is connected to SL is the amount till the moment you click "proces credit" all after is is irrelevant.

[Fox Wijaya]

1 minute ago, Mollymews said:

that's correct yes

no it's incorrect, not the 100 is the 100% to calculate with but the 97.5, because that's the current amount for transfer. ( i know peanuts when you talk about  10 dollars for processing, but when it's about 500 it gets substantial different)

[Naiman Broome]

1 minute ago, Fox Wijaya said:

it is NOT about getting the same amount, you confuse things. It's only about the raise of fees, NOT the net result on your rl bank.
The only thing what is connected to SL is the amount till the moment you click "proces credit" all after is is irrelevant.

The problem that is relevand and discussed here is that for the same work you get less money , and this is a process started last year with the increase of 2.5% now 5% and no limit!

this impact on your usual income .

 

So if you usually retired 1000 now you will get 1950 , if you want to still gain the same you need to retire 1050 more or less ....

this will reflect for most in an increase of prices overall with merchants both to support their own income, the expenditures of the renting and the premium membership requirements increased too !

[Fox Wijaya]

Just now, Naiman Broome said:

The problem that is relevand and discussed here is that for the same work you get less money , and this is a process started last year with the increase of 2.5% now 5% and no limit!

this impact on your usual income .

 

So if you usually retired 1000 now you will get 1950 , if you want to still gain the same you need to retire 1050 more or less ....

this will reflect for most in an increase of prices overall with merchants both to support their own income, the expenditures of the renting and the premium membership requirements increased too !

no, your way of discussing is not clean, you drag in things that aren't connected to the influence of SL at all, those are different for every country , so LL can't be taken responsible for that.
All that is relevant.. as said, is the things that happen till the moment you click "proces credit". All after is for your own.
Including those things you indeed have to raise your sales, or prices. But again, thats different for everybody, depending on RL rules by your government and fees by instances not connected to LL.

[Naiman Broome]

2 minutes ago, Fox Wijaya said:

no, your way of discussing is not clean, you drag in things that aren't connected to the influence of SL at all, those are different for every country , so LL can't be taken responsible for that.
All that is relevant.. as said, is the things that happen till the moment you click "proces credit". All after is for your own.
Including those things you indeed have to raise your sales, or prices. But again, thats different for everybody, depending on RL rules by your government and fees by instances not connected to LL.

Are you a merchant  ? are you selling items? do you have an income that pays your bills out of SL?

Regardless of the judging you might or not do on the subject!

It is Relevant to the costs of a Merchant/Creator .

Making items is costly and takes time it doesn't come for free, you to make a stupid comparison if you need to pay for the electricity to feed your pc and tools to build the items you sell you need the same amount of money  as you got before , so you still need to retire an hipothetical 1050 to receive the same 1000 , on which PP and Government will take the rest after.

[Mollymews]

10 minutes ago, Fox Wijaya said:

no it's incorrect, not the 100 is the 100% to calculate with but the 97.5, because that's the current amount for transfer

you are/were correct on this yes. Then Naiman shifted the discussion to getting the same amount in their pocket after fees and taxes. Which made Naiman's now different statement correct

[LiamZander]

Personally, as long as they're going to invest money into Second Life and keep it alive for years to come, 5% is not really a big deal. Sure, there are other transaction fees, taxes, insurance, accounting, tools, but this is what everyone has to deal with. I'd say that 5% is pretty generous. In the end it's just about making the best out of it. 

I would never think of increasing the price of my items to make the residents cover the extra fee. People have been supporting me for years and I think these are the people keeping SL alive and since money is a strong motivation - having creators learn, adjust and want to make better items. 

Instead of putting the costs on people that decide to put their hard earned money into SL, I'm just going to work harder to be able to deliver better quality items to make people happy so they come back and potentially attract new customers. It's not like the residents that don't have a particular interest in creating owe anything to the ones that do. If all the designers decided to leave, they would play around it their own way or move on and leave.

As for the premium price increase, you were already getting almost all of it back in L$ stipend, so the real cost of the annual subscription was just a few dollars. I can totally understand the price increase. 

It's just my opinion and its fine if others disagree, but I strongly believe there is also a different perspective to it than just calculating losses. 

[Fox Wijaya]

53 minutes ago, Naiman Broome said:

Are you a merchant  ? are you selling items? do you have an income that pays your bills out of SL?

Regardless of the judging you might or not do on the subject!

It is Relevant to the costs of a Merchant/Creator .

it's totally irrelevant what my position is, it's a matter of calculation, and you are incorrect.

[Rya Nitely]

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

these are really good questions. I give a different posit to consider

Without Merchants what would be SL?  it would be like Minecraft in terms of daily user numbers

Without Creators what would be SL?  A different posit is that it would be like Minecraft in terms of the numbers of daily users making stuff just because they can

the different posit is that the future potential user numbers growth of SL was crippled on the day that residents were given the ability to take money out of the game

It would be like Sansar, that's a much better comparison. Sansar has NOT attracted creators/merchants because there is No profit to be made, and hardly anyone goes there just to have fun building for free.

[Mollymews]

16 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

It would be like Sansar, that's a much better comparison. Sansar has NOT attracted creators/merchants because there is No profit to be made, and hardly anyone goes there just to have fun building for free.

if we look at it from today's perspective, and in this perspective SL is also a startup then yes, probably less than 12 active users

if we look at it from the perspective of 2005, when there was a lot more than 12 active users, the question that exercised the LL board was: Do we gom the GOM ?  LL decided yes and the LindeX was born

the posit is where would SL be today had the LindeX not been introduced, and the then GOM-owned SL accounts barred from receiving and supplying L$ to/from residents inworld

[Naiman Broome]

1 hour ago, Fox Wijaya said:

it's totally irrelevant what my position is, it's a matter of calculation, and you are incorrect.

As a matter of calculation , I am not incorrect, I am discussing an argument and you diverged over another .

According to my argument the increase is impacting on net income of people, that sums to other fees externally added, I never stated LL was responsible, as you have incorrectly supposed.

My statement is correct because if some merchant wants to perceive the same income as before monthly or else , needs to retire an higher amount of money from the platform to compensate the 5% detraction.

So he needs to increase by 5% the money retired at least and this then reflects on his total funds and other stuff he might be dealing with ingame or out of the game.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

To all the voices chiming in and saying effectively "Shut up, LL are running a business here and its fine for them to do this"

It doesnt matter where somebodies total costs come from, whether they are internal or external fees or to whom they are paid. Before this change by LL those costs were covered by the income and this persons business, whatever it was, was viable. After, it might not be. Solely as a result of this change. And you're saying they've no right to object? Bollocks. They may have no redress available but they definitely have a right to object. And where else is an appropriate forum to voice those objections apart from here?

Go to anyone engaged in any kind of business, RL or virtual, and say "We love what you're doing and we want you to carry on but now you have to make a small loss on it instead of a small profit." The least pungent response you will get will be "You're kidding me, right?"

[Fox Wijaya]

1 hour ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

 "Shut up, LL are running a business here and its fine for them to do this"

It doesnt matter where somebodies total costs come from

We love what you're doing and we want you to carry on but now you have to make a small loss on it instead of a small profit.

nobody says to shut up, but to get real
it does matter where the costs come from
and making a loss after a 2.5 % raise tells your business isalready on the edge of falling.

It is not possible to say now what loss there will be, all who do are just panicking . In a year or half year, you know what happened, adjust your plans and see if it works.

 

1 hour ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Bollocks

about that we agree. thats what it is.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

1 minute ago, Fox Wijaya said:

 making a loss after a 2.5 % raise tells your business isalready on the edge of falling.

OF course it is. I'm a musician. I perform and run sound desks for a living. My business is ALWAYS on the edge of failing. RL, SL, wherever. It's a lot closer in SL though, because performing pays a lot less there.

And your point is?

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

To all the voices chiming in and saying effectively "Shut up, LL are running a business here and its fine for them to do this"

 

10 minutes ago, Fox Wijaya said:

nobody says to shut up, but to get real

Da5id, I think most of those on the forum who are effectively saying "shut up and stop complaining, SL has a business to run" simply don't understand how many hours a person such as yourself puts in to SL to make it a more enjoyable place. They see it from their own personal perspective of someone who just comes here to play, and it's of no consequence to them to just add a couple more dollars into the game. No doubt if they worked hard in SL they would appreciate a merchant or musicians perspective more!

I really like how Blueberry responded on the forum. She was speaking to Grumpity, saying she was okay with the cashout fee increase but pointed out that for someone earning $1000 that $50 cashout fee (5%) amounts to a bill that needs to be paid.
I like how Grumpity put things too, saying it's a "bitter" pill, showing she has some sympathy for those who will incur a loss with these changes.

I totally agree, we have a perspective that needs to be listened to, most especially on LL's official communication channel. It does NOT mean we are demonizing SL -- we mainly just want to be heard, to have our opinion considered.

Even LL is not sure how these changes will effect SL, and so they need to listen to the residents regarding how changes are personally affecting them, because SL would be a poorer place, and perhaps even decline, without residents who put in vast amounts of time and effort. Care needs to be taken so as not to drive those residents away.

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Fox Wijaya said:

and making a loss after a 2.5 % raise tells your business isalready on the edge of falling.

 

5 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

OF course it is. I'm a musician. I perform and run sound desks for a living. My business is ALWAYS on the edge of failing. RL, SL, wherever. It's a lot closer in SL though, because performing pays a lot less there.

And your point is?

Fox, you really need to....cease and desist. You aren't in a position to determine Da5id's business plan, telling him whether or not his business is on the edge of failing.