Do merchants have any recourse?

[Blush Bravin]

I was contacted by a person who requested information about the new Linden Homes. When I asked if the person had a home their response was no but they decorate them .. so I looked up the profile and found this on the person's FB:

Let us make the most out of your prims and decorate for you!
We are now having a Linden Home complete décor SALE!! All styles of Linden Home decorating is $2,000L complete. Don't waste all your time and Lindens trying to get that look you want for your home … we use the most current items with the best use of prims. Contact us today while we have a few booking appointments available. This sale save you thousands of L's!

 

My question is do merchants have any recourse. This person is basically giving our content away by rezzing content and leaving it in their "customer's home for however long they want to use it. That means we go unpaid for our work.

[MoiraKathleen]

Wow!  That is certainly an abuse of the copy permission on items.  I imagine that many of the furnished rentals are abusing this as well, but it's the charging L's for it that really sets this apart as much worse, in my opinion.  They are in effect making money off of other creator's copy permed items, which is not right at all in my book.   I hope that some type of recourse can be found. 

[Pamela Galli]

I don’t really understand the business model, but I don’t understand how merchants would not get paid. When you sell something copyable, they can make as many copies as they want to use however.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Pamela Galli

[Blush Bravin]

3 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

I don’t really understand the business model, but I don’t understand how merchants would not get paid. When you sell something copyable, they can make as many copies as they want to use however.

The issue is that you're losing sales from those who might buy the product had this person not rezzed it in their home for them to use as long as they like. 

I would report the person but I don't see how it's breaking TOS so don't see how we have any recourse short of banning the person from buying anymore products from us.

[Luna Bliss]

Yeah it slays me how people find any way they can to make money off us..

* Basically it's reselling without permission, and we might have recourse.

* With a landlord there's no problem as they are not reselling items..

Edited April 25, 2019 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

38 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

I don’t really understand the business model, but I don’t understand how merchants would not get paid. When you sell something copyable, they can make as many copies as they want to use however.

Often when I landscape someone wants a recommendation for a home. I tell them where to purchase a suitable one, but I could just rez a copyable one I might have of yours and charge them for it, thereby reselling your content illegally.

*lol usually when I arrive at a place your home is actually already there though....and in the wrong damm spot ;0

[Luna Bliss]

These people should gift the items from the MP to their customer and tack on an additional charge covering the purchases. I've done that when i needed to use other creators no-transfer items.

[Cindy Evanier]

Not surprised someone started doing this sort of thing.   You all gave them a catalogue of designs to pick from on the Linden Homes pictures threads. I am not really seeing how this is much different to rental people decorating homes for people to rent using copy items. 

I do remember a thread where someone pointed out this sort of thing was why he sold his stuff No copy and he was jumped on for selling with those perms.

[Blush Bravin]

3 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

Not surprised someone started doing this sort of thing.   You all gave them a catalogue of designs to pick from on the Linden Homes pictures threads. I am not really seeing how this is much different to rental people decorating homes for people to rent using copy items. 

I do remember a thread where someone pointed out this sort of thing was why he sold his stuff No copy and he was jumped on for selling with those perms.

I remember his post as well.

All we can do is ban the person from our stores and block them in-world to keep them from purchasing our products in our MP store. That's what I'm doing.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Luna Bliss]

Perhaps it really won't be much of an issue. I imagine most Linden home residents would like to be able to edit/tweak their furnishings, and they can't if the items belong to someone else (unless the thief in question allows everyone they decorate for to have access to their prims).

[Luna Bliss]

17 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

I am not really seeing how this is much different to rental people decorating homes for people to rent using copy items. 

It really is a type of reselling without the creators permission -- the decorator will be making money for his/her services.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Luna Bliss

[Cindy Evanier]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It really is a type of reselling without the creators permission -- the decorator will be making money for his/her services.

Decorating services have been going on for years though;  from homes or small parcels, right up to full sims.  I don't see this any differently unless I am missing something glaringly obvious.  

[Luna Bliss]

Well that's true, Cindy. I remember a guy who used a lot of my no-transfer stuff to create full-sim designs for people. He would whiz through doing the same thing over and over, making about $2000 usd per month (but that was back in the more lucrative days).
Most people now seem to want access to their prims though, but I imagine there's a small market for people who just want their homes done and looking nice yet don't care if they can edit it.

However I wouldn't do that to fellow merchants as I have more loyalty than that. It's so easy to gift my customer and recoup costs or just have them buy the items themselves so I can landscape with it.

More than anything this just seems very tacky. I mean the person isn't even part of the community with a Linden home. They just see a business opportunity, using other people's content and designs (more than a few of the people on the Linden homes threads are great interior decorators, and no doubt this person is copying their designs too) -- then swoop into the community to commercialize off it as best they can.

Another way to look at it though, for those content creators who feel slighted, is that any time your content is out there in the world it serves as a little ad, so maybe that outweighs any sales that might be lost by this happy rezzer-person (can't really call them a decorator or creator).

[So Whimsy]

How is this different from the Landscapers that have been around since the dawn of SL? They buy a lot of landscaping products as well as houses and outdoors furniture, sometimes indoors furniture and decor as well and they use that to put it on the client's land to landscape their sim.

This is just like the mini version of the landscaping business.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Syn Anatine

[Blush Bravin]

I had a friend in the landscaping business. He used transfer plants and when the job was completed the customer bought all the plants used.

If someone is going to be in this kind of business and wants to use copy/no trans products it seems there should be an agreement between the creator and the decorator where an agreed upon commission on the profits would go to the creator. 

[So Whimsy]

11 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I had a friend in the landscaping business. He used transfer plants and when the job was completed the customer bought all the plants used.

If someone is going to be in this kind of business and wants to use copy/no trans products it seems there should be an agreement between the creator and the decorator where an agreed upon commission on the profits would go to the creator. 

I don't think that would be possible considering that even a 512sqm parcel kitted out with a small cabin, furniture and landscaping could hold the items of dozens of creators.

You could maybe place a disclaimer on your MP listing stating that items are not to be used for landscaping/decorating business purposes, but that only holds merit if you made the content yourself and didn't use templates. If you are the original creator you may be in a position to file DMCA's if they break that TOS but don't quote me on it as this is a very specific kind of case.

This would however not work retroactively for sales already made as the products were purchased in good faith that they could be used for the landscaping business.

Personally I am on the fence about this finding pro's and con's in equal measures. In the end though, considering this is SL, they purchased the product its theirs now to do with as they please within the permissions the product is set in. So ultimately, I am leaning toward no recourse for merchants.

[Pamela Galli]

There is an up and a down side with any permissions, as many will recall from all the threads where creators were called criminals if they sold anything no copy. 

I just assume people will try to get the most value possible from whatever they buy, and that will sometimes include sharing copy items. I am always glad when landlords use my houses and furnishings in their rentals. As Luna says, every product is an advertisement. 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Pamela Galli

[Blush Bravin]

22 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

You could maybe place a disclaimer on your MP listing stating that items are not to be used for landscaping/decorating business purposes, but that only holds merit if you made the content yourself and didn't use templates. If you are the original creator you may be in a position to file DMCA's if they break that TOS but don't quote me on it as this is a very specific kind of case.

My product isn't a landscaping item. This person has bought one of my add-ons. One I am selling for the unbelievably low price of 100L as an introductory special specifically as a way to introduce people to my new line of add-ons. 90% of the build is my original mesh, but I did use a template door, in hind sight I should have just meshed my own door but I was in a hurry. Regardless, even if had I not used a template, I don't think I'd want to go through the hassle of filing a DMCA on something selling for so few lindens. But I am now armed and know better for the future. I will be putting something in my listings from now on stating the limitations for use.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Chic Aeon]

6 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

My product isn't a landscaping item. This person has bought one of my add-ons. One I am selling for the unbelievably low price of 100L as an introductory special specifically as a way to introduce people to my new line of add-ons. I did use a template door, in hind sight I should have just meshed my own door but I was in a hurry. Regardless, even if had I not used a template, I don't think I'd want to go through the hassle of filing a DMCA on something selling for so few lindens. But I am now armed and know better for the future. I will be putting something in my listings from now stating the limitations for use.

While that might not be a bad move, there is no reason to believe that the person buying your item would even READ the text in your listing OR any notecard you added. I am sure many of us have had folks contact us asking questions that were answered ON THE LISTING and / or in the pack -- OR by actually visiting the demo. 

And there is no way to assure that they will follow your rules if they do read.  

Personally I can't see that a lot of folks would be interested since most likely items can't be changed (even via hud in some cases), copied, or taken into inventory for later. They could only be moved if the decorator gave them editing rights and that seems unwise.  So the only change that they could make would be to delete the item.

And if the person using the service had their land set to group then wouldn't the decorator need to be in that group?  This if autoreturn is set which hopefully most folks do. 

 

Maybe I am missing something. 

Maybe you could look at it another way. If the people using the service LIKE your item, they might purchase another of your items in the future. Which seems to be what you were after anyway with your "loss leader" item. 

 

Good luck. 

[Pamela Galli]

SO many of my products have been illegally copied and sold or given away free and FULL PERM I am grateful when someone bothers to purchase them and shares them legally. 

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

Maybe you could look at it another way. If the people using the service LIKE your item, they might purchase another of your items in the future. Which seems to be what you were after anyway with your "loss leader" item. 

Yeah, this particular item isn't a big deal. It really is just advertising but it's the future that has me more concerned. But anyway, I'm okay with it now. Whether anyone pays attention to the disclaimer isn't the issue as much as it is now there so if in the future I need to do something about it I can.

[Blush Bravin]

My reaction today to this was similar to the day someone sent me a message, way back in the early days when Omega was just hitting the grid big time, saying that a notecard with my UUIDs was being passed around freely. Of course I wanted to stop it immediately, but we all know how that went. But I'm not the type to throw my hands up in the air and say it's going to happen anyway so I'm just not going to do anything to try and stop it. 

I do appreciate all the feedback. It has helped me to work through the issue and come to grips with the reality. I do feel better having just added those few words to my item description. Perhaps I'm lulling myself into a false sense of security, but I'll take it anyway.  

[Pamela Galli]

2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

My reaction today to this was similar to the day someone sent me a message, way back in the early days when Omega was just hitting the grid big time, saying that a notecard with my UUIDs was being passed around freely. Of course I wanted to stop it immediately, but we all know how that went. But I'm not the type to throw my hands up in the air and say it's going to happen anyway so I'm just not going to do anything to try and stop it. 

I do appreciate all the feedback. It has helped me to work through the issue and come to grips with the reality. I do feel better having just added those few words to my item description. Perhaps I'm lulling myself into a false sense of security, but I'll take it anyway.  

Yep I remember when I found out thirty of my houses fully furnished were being given away full perm on the Internet.  (May they burn in hell.)  If people can just refrain from that kind of thing I’m good. 

[So Whimsy]

9 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

 I do feel better having just added those few words to my item description. Perhaps I'm lulling myself into a false sense of security, but I'll take it anyway.  

That's what matters most.

But if push ever does come to shove you will at least have a chance of a DMCA going through!

[So Whimsy]

5 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Yep I remember when I found out thirty of my houses fully furnished were being given away full perm on the Internet.  (May they burn in hell.)  If people can just refrain from that kind of thing I’m good. 

And thank you (and Blush!) for soldiering on, in this instance we can still have nice things!