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KarolinaKatt

Multiple crashes

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REcetnly my Firestorm has been crashing more and more frequently. Last days more than once every fifth minute. This forced me to make a totall uninstall - cleaned everyting - and install the new Firestorm Beta. But this behaves exactly the same. I have Windows 10 Home edition. I have set all graphics to low, my cache to max, it still crashes badly. I cant no longer do anything in SL. Does anyone have an idea what is happening? I am now practiacally unable to run SL and it is very sad.

The crashes are weired. Parts of SL is first stopping. I notice it is about to chrash when I cannot open profiles, I can rotate my avatar, but not move in any direction. No IM is reaching me and I am probably not able to send IMs either, despite it is looking like that. After some minutes the screen goes grey and a pop up tells me it has crashed.

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Does the pop up say something similar to: "You have been disconnected from Second Life,  View IM/Quit"?

It sounds like you are getting disconnected rather then the viewer crashing.
If you have not dome so since the problem started, power off your router/cable modem & reboot your computer.  Often this is enough to fix transient connection issues.

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Hi Whirly and thank you for answer.
I power off every time I leave the computer. I have reinstalled the viewer fully accoring to their instructions of clean remove/reinstallation. That did not help. I have also tried a tamporary alt ID and the problem persisted. 

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4 hours ago, KarolinaKatt said:

I power off every time I leave the computer.

Yes, but did you unplug both your router and your modem from the power for at least a minute to force them to reboot?  That's what Whirly was recommending.

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Yes i have unplugged both of them. And changed DNS. Same problems appeared. I did discover however that SL crashed the same way when using my laptop connected to SL via ethernet at home. But not when connected to the home wifi. My PC do not have wifi so I do have to use ethernet here. I cannot use laptop at home. 

 

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I have also unistalled Firestorm completely again, downloaded an older version and installed it on another drive at my computer, but it still crashes the same.

So the problem is at least pinpointed down to the ethernet part of my home network. Does anyone have any idea what I can try now?

Edited by KarolinaKatt

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Ok and now I got help to find out that when the crash starts, I cannot move or send IM, but others see me move, still, and get my IM. I do not get replies either. It is soo weired.

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2 hours ago, KarolinaKatt said:

I did discover however that SL crashed the same way when using my laptop connected to SL via ethernet at home. But not when connected to the home wifi. My PC do not have wifi so I do have to use ethernet here.

Aha!

Are you using the same ethernet cable for the desktop and to test the laptop with a wired connection?
If so then the cable is probably dodgy & replacing the ethernet cable will fix it.

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1 hour ago, KarolinaKatt said:

Ok and now I got help to find out that when the crash starts, I cannot move or send IM, but others see me move, still, and get my IM. I do not get replies either. It is soo weired.

This is normal for a disconnect.
It can take the viewer a couple of minutes to notify you that you have been disconnected but you're already dead up to 120 seconds before that.

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Whirly's suggestion about trying another cable is good.  I am not sure, but it might also be a setting in your firewall.  See this article: https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/using-second-life-with-a-firewall-r599/

Bear in mind that your system has two firewalls...a software firewall in your computer (which is likely NOT the problem in your case) and a NAT firewall in your router.  You'll need to access your router's configuration menu to check those settings.

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21 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Aha!

Are you using the same ethernet cable for the desktop and to test the laptop with a wired connection?
If so then the cable is probably dodgy & replacing the ethernet cable will fix it.

No it is different cables.

 

21 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

This is normal for a disconnect.
It can take the viewer a couple of minutes to notify you that you have been disconnected but you're already dead up to 120 seconds before that.

The strange part to me is that other can still see me walk when I try to walk, but I cannot.

 

3 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Whirly's suggestion about trying another cable is good.  I am not sure, but it might also be a setting in your firewall.  See this article: https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/using-second-life-with-a-firewall-r599/

Bear in mind that your system has two firewalls...a software firewall in your computer (which is likely NOT the problem in your case) and a NAT firewall in your router.  You'll need to access your router's configuration menu to check those settings.

I have not done any changes to the firewalls, and in  the router I have no idea what to look for. SL works for 2-10 minutes before crashing so the firewalls DOES let it through. But on the other hand, thats the common point for my PC and laptop.

But now I am certain that it crashes while on the routers ethernet and does NOT crashes when on the routers wifi. I dont have wifi on my PC. But the laptop (the SL session) crashes while on eternet and not when on wifi.

And I have to emphasize that I am very thankful for you guys trying to help me.

 

Edited by KarolinaKatt

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Ok I have filed a bug report to Firestorm. 

But I discovered that when FS is starting the crash procedure, when I cannot see myself walk anymore, if I then TP somewhere, I am unlocked again and do not get thrown out from SL. I have only tried this a few time so far, but it seems like it works. It is definitely a workaround but I think it limits the problem to Firestorm at least.

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Look through these steps to see if you can find the specific problem: http://blog.nalates.net/2011/10/26/troubleshoot-your-sl-connection/

Using TRACERT will give you a decent idea of whether it is you, the ISP, the backbone provider, or the Lab.

Looking in the viewer's stats (Ctrl-Shift-1 a toggle) and looking for Packet Loss and PING will tell you how well you are or aren't connected to the SL servers. PL <1% is good and PING <=250ms is good. Lower is better in both.

While the following items are probably not the problem, do check the computer's temperatures. Use HDMonitor (free). It is way unlikely both are overheating. But, it is an easy check. Overheating results in bizarre problems. So, checking temp is an early troubleshooting step.

Also, check memory use and page faulting. The Free program MemHistory will show you what is going on with memory. The built-in Windows Resource Monitor and Task Manager will show you what is happening with paging. Page Faults have to be sever to be of concern. But, if you are running on barely enough memory, they can be a problem that leads to odd results.

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Thank you Natales

Packet loss is 0% and ping is 190 - 220. I think that is good. 

Temperatures are fine - I have an almost brand new huge fan after having heat problems. 

I will check memory as soon as I can. I have 16 gb memory in my PC (intel i5) and ....sufficient on my laptop (i7)

I do not understand TRACERT, but running it get time out before i get out of Swedish routers. Now; I CAN run SL as long as it not  crashing and by TP I can prolong the session between crashes. Managed today to be in SL over half an hour before logging out - thanks to frequent TPs of course, which not making my SL experience very nice, but I can at least chat. So there is contact obviously. I think that I wouldl have the same problem on wifi but wifi is ok. 

Wifi okl, ethernet over the same router not ok, point to my equipment for the problem, but the fact that I can avoid the crashes by making a TP when I notice a crash is immedient, makes me think its on the SL side anyhow.

I appreciate all hints and helps like this. Thank you again 

 

Edited by KarolinaKatt

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Do you happen to get this exact error message before the "crash"?

We are sorry, Linden Lab has discovered degraded performance on your connection to the region you are on. You will need to restart Second Life and log into a new region for the next 30 minutes to an hour. We apologize for the inconvenience.

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6 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Do you happen to get this exact error message before the "crash"?

We are sorry, Linden Lab has discovered degraded performance on your connection to the region you are on. You will need to restart Second Life and log into a new region for the next 30 minutes to an hour. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Hi Whirly!

No I have never seen that message. I can  TP within the region to "restore" my connection  and avoid a total crash, when I notice the first signs of a coming crash. But TP witrhin a region is often locking up, so I prefer to TP outside the region and return again within a minute or so.

I mostly get the common "Region might have experienced trouble"-message when letting me being kicked out fully.

And - this I do not think I have told before - these crashes started long time ago, but from the beginning I only experienced them very rarely, and only at FogBound Blues. Last months they have accelerated in numbers, ending up in the present situation where I crash everytime and everywhere in SL - even my home.

Freinds I tell these problems to, often says that they experience the same behaviour when crashing, but I have heard of noone that chrasing this often. And i will ask the next one if they can try to save the crashes by making a TP. It will be interesting to find out.

Edited by KarolinaKatt
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Whirly - I need to ask you, since this is now a support issue at Firestorm, do you want me to keep reporting what I find out here, or to the issue or both?

For now I will put another small observation here, but I can copy it into the support issue if you like.

When TP to "save" my precense in SL, I can, unless I have waited too long before trying the TP and get logged out directly, TP to other places. From that place, if I try to TP back to where I experienced the crash, I mostly get stuck in TP and logged out. i CAN sometomes - only sometimes -make a TP directly to the place where I am, but mostly it will logg me out with the text "You  have been disconnected..." And first attempt to log in again moslty result in "The region is logging you out, please try again in ...."

I have excluded anyting I wear, body, AO etc from causing the problem. I have no idea if there is a possibility to find out if anything in inventory causes these problems. Cache is not the cause, for sure.

I add a screen dump on the one of the 3-4 crashes I have had just while writing this message.

crash.PNG

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10 hours ago, KarolinaKatt said:

I do not understand TRACERT, but running it get time out before i get out of Swedish routers. Now; I CAN run SL as long as it not  crashing and by TP I can prolong the session between crashes. Managed today to be in SL over half an hour before logging out - thanks to frequent TPs of course, which not making my SL experience very nice, but I can at least chat. So there is contact obviously. I think that I would have the same problem on wifi but wifi is ok. 

You can Google how to read a TRACERT. That you are getting a time out is a likely cause of the problem. However, a time out in a unit not returning a name is not an issue. It is when from a certain point on all subsequent hopes time out that you are certain it is a problem. Also, as Whirly points out, when that happens you usually get a disconnect message.

That the viewer and region are thinking it is a connection issue suggests you are having an intermittent problem.

1 hour ago, KarolinaKatt said:

For now I will put another small observation here, but I can copy it into the support issue if you like.

The image shows a network issue. If you could go to another region and not have the problem then we would have reason to think it is on the Linden side of things. As that isn't the case and combined with the TRACERT it looks like an ISP problem. File a support ticket with your ISP and include 2 or 3 TRACE RT tests run at different times, say an hour apart. Include those in the comments to the FS peepes.

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5 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

The image shows a network issue. If you could go to another region and not have the problem then we would have reason to think it is on the Linden side of things. As that isn't the case and combined with the TRACERT it looks like an ISP problem. File a support ticket with your ISP and include 2 or 3 TRACE RT tests run at different times, say an hour apart. Include those in the comments to the FS peepes.

Ok I will contact ISP. But since SecondLife is running well until the crash occurs, is it really possible that it is a connection problem? And how can I by teleporting "save" me from crashing out and proceed with SL if it is a connection problem.

My feeling is that it might be a windows update problem or something in my inventory. The problem have also been very small for a long time but accelerated severely last weeks.

Here is my TRACERT, by the way. I excluded step 7 to 30 since they where all similar to 5 and 6

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2    <1 ms     1 ms    <1 ms  65.99.187.1
  3     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  65.99.185.249
  4    14 ms    12 ms    12 ms  94.246.65.94
  5     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  6     *        *        *     Request timed out.

 

Edited by KarolinaKatt
TRACERT result added.

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2 hours ago, KarolinaKatt said:

Ok I will contact ISP. But since SecondLife is running well until the crash occurs, is it really possible that it is a connection problem? And how can I by teleporting "save" me from crashing out and proceed with SL if it is a connection problem.

The network is not like other devices. The network is changing by the millisecond. The path your network packets take may remain constant but it is way more likely the path constantly changes, While there will be a most direct preferred path when load is high or problems encountered it will deviate from that. Plus the sent packets and received packets may take different routes. Looks like you are hitting a problem. 

You didn't Google reading TRACERT. Those repetitive "*" hops you didn't show would tell us more. So, I am guessing about how likely this is the problem. It would help to include the full route trace.

That everything from hop #5 on times out is likely a problem. The final hop into the Lab's server running the simulator is known to return a Domain ID like 12    21 ms    22 ms    25 ms  sim10322.agni.lindenlab.com [216.82.50.44]. If the last hop is failing then you definitely have connection problems. As the trace uses ICMP that reporting may be blocked somewhere, but I think that unlikely. If it were the case HTTP could pass while ICMP was blocked, which is usually an endpoint thing.

The 21 ms    22 ms    25 ms above tells us the packets are making it to the simulator and back in about 22.6ms. 

That you report a 0% packet loss is probably not accurate because of how the viewer reports packet loss. I suggest you look in the secondlife.log file at the end of the file for the session stats. If the viewer crashes, there will not be a summary. However, the disconnect you show will allow you to close the viewer 'gracefully' and get the summary stats.

In Firestorm the next to last line reports the stats at the time you click HELP->ABOUT...

After login and 2 minutes in: Packets Lost: 76/8,182 (0.9%)

After 5+ minutes online: Packets Lost: 76/128,936 (0.1%) - You can see all my packet loss is in the initial connection period. Over time that % number decreases. When there are problems it increases over time.

From the log: (Windows: C:\Users\[Win_login_ID]\AppData\Roaming\SecondLife\logs\)

SendPacket failures:                          0
Dropped packets:                             76
Resent packets:                              117
Failed reliable resends:                      0
Off-circuit rejected packets:               0
On-circuit invalid packets:                 0

How a TP saves you is the change in servers. You change connection to a new simulator IP address. The network figures out anew how to route to the new address. As time passes the system tries to 'improve' the connection or find an alternate route with less failures/resends. That you get disconnected hints at the problem being in a bottleneck somewhere and likely error recovery processes timing out. The next TP restarts the process. The time out is likely on the SL server-side.

Also, the problem is likely intermittent. That can be for a number of reasons. Momentary load at a specific router... overflow routing or load balancing may be too frequently rerouting you into problem equipment... None of these things are anything you can do anything about except complain to you ISP and the Lab.

A recent problem with the backbone into Germany prevented people there from logging into SL. So, while rare, this type of problem is not uncommon. 

Filing 3 TRACERT reports taken at different times with the ISP is a first step. While an hour between reports is OK, one from the morning today, afternoon tomorrow, and evening the day after would be better... and from yesterday and the day before works too. Send a copy of the report sent to your ISP to the Lab as a Trouble Ticket and explain what it is and why they are getting it and request help. When the problem is with the backbone provider, it helps to have people working on the issue from both ends. Also refer the Lab to this thread so they can see what you have been doing on your own to resolve the problem.

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14 hours ago, KarolinaKatt said:

I have no idea if there is a possibility to find out if anything in inventory causes these problems.

Do you have an alt account?
Can you reproduce the same problem on the alt?
If you don't have an alt, you can make one for testing at https://join.secondlife.com/
If you have the same problem with a new account then it's nothing to do with inventory.

14 hours ago, KarolinaKatt said:

Whirly - I need to ask you, since this is now a support issue at Firestorm, do you want me to keep reporting what I find out here, or to the issue or both?

Up to you.
I've linked this thread to your support ticket so it's fine just to update here.
The more eyes on this the better really so if I were you, I'd still add your updates here.

 

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12 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

You didn't Google reading TRACERT. Those repetitive "*" hops you didn't show would tell us more. So, I am guessing about how likely this is the problem. It would help to include the full route trace.

 

Thank you Natales!

I know enough about computers to manage my own and some company stuff when needed, but networking is not a part of that. And I do not understand very much of what you are trying to tell me. But I notice you wanted to see the whole TRACERT result. I tried to tell that it all was similar to the two last hops but here it is: 

Tracing route to 11.1.0.1 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2    <1 ms     1 ms    <1 ms  65.99.187.1
  3     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  65.99.185.249
  4    14 ms    12 ms    12 ms  94.246.65.94
  5     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  6     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  7     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  8     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  9     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 10     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 11     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 12     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 13     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 14     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 15     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 16     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 17     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 18     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 19     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 20     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 21     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 22     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 23     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 24     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 25     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 26     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 27     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 28     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 29     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 30     *        *        *     Request timed out.

Trace complete.

And all TRACERT I have run is pretty much identical. Might differ one or two milliseconds, but it never comes further than to jump 4. I have asked my ISP about this. Will hopfully get resppond in a few days.

8 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Do you have an alt account?

Can you reproduce the same problem on the alt?
If you don't have an alt, you can make one for testing at https://join.secondlife.com/
If you have the same problem with a new account then it's nothing to do with inventory.

 

I have tried an alt account wiht the same result, so thank you Whirly for that info.

Now, I have found out that my PC actually have a wifi card, I was not aware of, but it was not working. I installed driverrs for it and made it work . So therefore I could pull the cable and find out that SL is not crashing anymore. And  I am getting 114/111 Mb/s even wiht wifi so thats what I need to my RL photo backups that can be really huge. 

So I do have a cable problem but not wifi problem on the same router. That is obviously pointing the error to the router.

On the other hand, the fact that I can save from crashing out by making TPs in SL, is telling me it might be an SL problem anyhow. What I cannot do, I have discovered after multiple failed attempts, is TP back to the place where the crash initiated, until a crash have started on the new place I TPed to. If I try to TP back sooner, it will lock me in TP and kicking me out from SL.

Oh and here are the packets summary from the log I sent to Firestorm support after a crash:

SendPacket failures:                          0
Dropped packets:                              1
Resent packets:                             435
Failed reliable resends:                     13
Off-circuit rejected packets:                 0
On-circuit invalid packets:                   0

I cannot interpret that.

And thank you guys for giving me your time, I appreciate that a lot.

 

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On 12/31/2018 at 9:43 PM, KarolinaKatt said:

Thank you Natales!

I know enough about computers to manage my own and some company stuff when needed, but networking is not a part of that. And I do not understand very much of what you are trying to tell me. But I notice you wanted to see the whole TRACERT result. I tried to tell that it all was similar to the two last hops but here it is: 

Tracing route to 11.1.0.1 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2    <1 ms     1 ms    <1 ms  65.99.187.1
  3     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  65.99.185.249
  4    14 ms    12 ms    12 ms  94.246.65.94
  5     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  6     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  7     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  8     *        *        *     Request timed out.
                ...
 30     *        *        *     Request timed out.

Trace complete.

And all TRACERT I have run is pretty much identical. Might differ one or two milliseconds, but it never comes further than to jump 4. I have asked my ISP about this. Will hopfully get respond in a few days.

The default Max Hops is 30. Your Tracert gave up before getting to the end of the trip... You can force it to go farther. Use: tracert -h 40 [destination] or whatever number of hops you want to try. The time allowed for each hop is 4,000ms (4 sec). So, it isn't fail on time.

This is a lot of hops. I suspect something is wrong in the ICMP path and that is why you don't see it reach the endpoint. If your computer could not reach the destination you would get a destination unreachable message. Refining the troubleshooting any farther requires installing software that can further test the connection. That is a job better left to your ISP and the Lab.

On 12/31/2018 at 9:43 PM, KarolinaKatt said:

Oh and here are the packets summary from the log I sent to Firestorm support after a crash:

SendPacket failures:                          0
Dropped packets:                               1
Resent packets:                             435
Failed reliable resends:                   13
Off-circuit rejected packets:             0
On-circuit invalid packets:                 0

I cannot interpret that.

And thank you guys for giving me your time, I appreciate that a lot.

It appears more packets are dropped on the way to you, requiring a resend, from the Lab than from you to the Lab the Dropped Packets.

So, I would put all the info you sent to your ISP and a pointer to this thread into an SL trouble ticket.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

So, I would put all the info you sent to your ISP and a pointer to this thread into an SL trouble ticket.

Thank you Nalates - I did.

Edited by KarolinaKatt

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Short update: Problem persists. ISP have answered that it is "too complicated" to describe the  ICMP path over mail. I dont need a description! But I feel they do not see anything wrong so far. Their queues at the phone support are very long, and I have not mucht time free at home with kids and home cores. I will let a friend make a test to play some other games on his laptop via my ethernet connection, and see if there are any problems. 

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