Should commercial ventures and estates in SL be allowed to discriminate?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yes. The point is, to raise a generation who is WITHOUT prejudice.  That is impossible to do without setting an example for each next generation.

Or don't you want a world without prejudice?

prejudice is a natural human condition. if the truth be told what you and others in this thread really want is a world free of white prejudice

[Nalytha]

 

12 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

yes its a terrible business model but eventually the business owner will see he is hurting himself and change his policy. no government coersion required

I just don't get it. We already discussed how there were businesses who refused to serves blacks, regardless of the 'color of their money' and refused to change until there was 'government coercion.' 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thankfully, we have laws against at least SOME types of discrimination in real life.

yes its a terrible violation of your human and civil rights if someone refuses to bake you a cake

[Nalytha]

5 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

prejudice is a natural human condition. if the truth be told what you and others in this thread really want is a world free of white prejudice

What? o.0 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Nalytha said:

 

I just don't get it. We already discussed how there were businesses who refused to serves blacks, regardless of the 'color of their money' and refused to change until there was 'government coercion.' 

and it was their right to decide who to serve

[Nalytha]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

and it was their right to decide who to serve

Riiiiight... but your argument is that he will change his policy because it will hurt him. 

17 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

yes its a terrible business model but eventually the business owner will see he is hurting himself and change his policy. no government coersion required

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

What? o.0 

i was at an anti racist meeting in rl one time. one of the activists told me that the only way to end racism in the world was to breed the white race out of existance

see, no whites, no racism

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

Riiiiight... but your argument is that he will change his policy because it will hurt him. 

 

he might decide pandering to his other customers is a more successful business model and never change

[Nalytha]

 

13 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

prejudice is a natural human condition. if the truth be told what you and others in this thread really want is a world free of white prejudice

 

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

i was at an anti racist meeting in rl one time. one of the activists told me that the only way to end racism in the world was to breed the white race out of existance

see, no whites, no racism

So... what you are saying is that you think some of us in this thread are eugenicists who want to eliminate the white race? 

Huh.... that's weird... kind of goes against what I'd consider self preservation ... but ... okay... 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Nalytha

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

yes its a terrible violation of your human and civil rights if someone refuses to bake you a cake

and Gadget said:

"To be fair, the whole "forced customers" thing is one of those lose/lose situations.

Without a law like this, minorties and the like may suffer. With a law like this, many innocent business owners suffer."

The fact that you have equated the suffering of "minorities and the like" with "many innocent business owners" demonstrates the crux of the problem -- there is no empathy or very little awareness on your parts that the amount of suffering by minorities is so much greater than what a business owner would experience.

Being considered a 2nd class citizen and not worthy of the same rights as others is a pain that causes immense damage to those targeted. It's the constant, unrelenting message of 'you are bad for who you are, you are not worthy of the respect others are given'. Feeling excluded causes poor self-esteem, unfulfilled potential, and even the terror of living life in fear -- all because one is simply born a certain way (a person of color, gay, disabled).
Really, you guys need to read some books, watch some movies -- whatever it takes to get a sense of how the marginalized people in a society experience life. I have a feeling that if some empathy really sunk in you would feel stupid for complaining about baking a freaking cake for someone.

[Tari Landar]

15 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

prejudice is a natural human condition. if the truth be told what you and others in this thread really want is a world free of white prejudice

That's a piss poor assessment of this entire thread.

I want a world without any prejudice, but I can recognize that such a thing is an impossibility. Since I know it's an impossibility, I want to eliminate as much of it as we possibly can for both current and future generations.  Why anyone would want anything otherwise, is beyond me. My opinion isn't based on race alone, race is far from the only area in which prejudice runs rampant. It's extremely ignorant to believe race is the only issue here. You've been given quite a few examples of other prejudice., but are choosing to be willfully ignorant on them, and focusing on just one-and then projecting that out to others as if it is them that are doing that. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Ignorance isn't inherently bad, but willful ignorance sure is. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Tari Landar
words are hard sometimes :p

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 12/31/2017 at 1:34 PM, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I'm talking about private business. Government services should be equally available to everything.

I think forced segregation was wrong, but,  I think forced integration is equally wrong.

You've said some things in this thread that have led you to a very interesting place.

1) Government services should be equally available.

2) VITAL services should be equally available.

3) Private businesses should be allowed to choose their clientele.

 

When you put them together, you come to - 

4) No private business can provide a vital service, because their right to choose their clientele would mean that their services may not be equally available.

5) Therefore, all vital services have to be provided by the government.

 

Do you know what this makes you?

 

(wait for it...)

 

A socialist.

[Luna Bliss]

9 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I'd like to know that, should my children ever have children that suffer some kind of disability, or find themselves under some kind of protected class umbrella at any point in their lives(and I'm certain they will), those children won't have to see their mommy cry because some asswipe business owner thought it would be cool to say "nope, your kind isn't welcome here"

I'm really glad we have some laws in place that tell jerks like that to STFU.

Exactly. The lack of empathy of too many is appalling. It's why we have these laws now thank goddess.

[Phil Deakins]

25 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

im not clinging to anything please show me where i said julius caesar conquered britain. someone said the inhabitants defeated caesar i said romans conquered britain and remained about 300 years i dont recall saying julius caesar did it. in your usual quest to prove me wrong you once again responded to what you thought i said instead of what i actually said

Pam wrote, "If the Brits repelled Caesar, and held off the Nazis while Europe caved", to which you replied, "the brits repelled caesar? london was founded by the romans i believe and there was a roman presence in britain for about 300 years".

Your reply to Pam indicated that you meant Ceasar, or you wouldn't have made that reply which challenged what Pam had written about Ceasar, and you certainly wouldn't have started your reply with that 4-word question. You knew that the Romans had conquered England (not Britain) and you thought it was Ceasar, but you were wrong.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Nalytha]

2 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

You've been given quite a few examples of other prejudice., but are choosing to be willfully ignorant on them, and focusing on just one-and then projecting that out to others as if it is they doing that. That couldn't be further from the truth.

It's easier for some people to trivialize the entire topic of discrimination by using an example of baking cakes. (which IMHO isn't trivial ... but like I said.. IMHO) 

[Tari Landar]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Exactly. The lack of empathy of too many is appalling. It's why we have these laws now thank goddess.

It's the whole "I don't experience it, therefore it cannot possibly be a problem" willfully ignorant trend. It gives me a headache sometimes, to be honest. There are so many ways in which people experience prejudice and discrimination. The fact that we cannot eliminate them all entirely, doesn't mean we give up trying to eliminate what we can.  Some people just can't seem to grasp what others go through...not because it's hard, but because *they don't want to*.(ie, willful ignorance)

[Luna Bliss]

40 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

its the democrats fault that there are more and more poor people.

The reason there are poor people is because people like you, whatever you are, feel fine about labeling some as unworthy of our help. It's a total lack of empathy on your part when you choose not to aknowlege there are illnesses, both physical and mental, and situations in life that become 'too much' for vulnerable citizens and make it damm near impossible to function.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Luna Bliss

[Nalytha]

Just now, Tari Landar said:

Some people just can't seem to grasp what others go through...not because it's hard, but because *they don't want to*.(ie, willful ignorance)

Tangent, but there is biological things that go into empathy. I personally believe some folks simply are neurologically unable to show a certain degree of empathy. I think it's a scale... and some barely land on it at all. This might be wishful thinking on my part, because if they aren't biologically capable of experiencing true empathy, the alternative is that they are choosing not to. 

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Nalytha said:

Tangent, but there is biological things that go into empathy. I personally believe some folks simply are neurologically unable to show a certain degree of empathy. I think it's a scale... and some barely land on it at all. This might be wishful thinking on my part, because if they aren't biologically capable of experiencing true empathy, the alternative is that they are choosing not to. 

There are studies that show far-right conservatives score low on the empathy scale.

[Innula Zenovka]

11 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

My point is that a private business owner should be able to choose who his clientele will be. I'm sure there are 10 other business owners that will be more than happy to serve those people  he chooses not to serve.

And other people are saying that legislators are able to say something like "It is part of the state's role to provide a restraint on the power of the strong to oppress the weak and the majority to oppress the minority.    It is in the public interest to prevent discrimination against whole classes of people and, to this end, we say that while people can obviously bake cares (or not) for whoever they please, if they want to go into business selling cakes to the general public they must not discriminate against whole classes of people on the grounds of their race, sexual orientation,. gender, religion or other protected categories".

Why should your view on what private business owners should be able to do trump that of the legislators?

Edited January 3, 2018 by Innula Zenovka

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Exactly. The lack of empathy of too many is appalling. It's why we have these laws now thank goddess.

It's the whole "I don't experience it, therefore it cannot possibly be a problem" willfully ignorant trend. It gives me a headache sometimes, to be honest. There are so many ways in which people experience prejudice and discrimination. The fact that we cannot eliminate them all entirely, doesn't mean we give up trying to eliminate what we can.  Some people just can't seem to grasp what others go through...not because it's hard, but because *they don't want to*.(ie, willful ignorance)

They seem to live in a bubble, and nothing is real to them except their own experience.

And yes, just because we can't eliminate all prejudice doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

It's easier for some people to trivialize the entire topic of discrimination by using an example of baking cakes. (which IMHO isn't trivial ... but like I said.. IMHO) 

Exactly. We should not let them define the argument and show them it's really a stupid defense.

[Tari Landar]

7 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

Tangent, but there is biological things that go into empathy. I personally believe some folks simply are neurologically unable to show a certain degree of empathy. I think it's a scale... and some barely land on it at all. This might be wishful thinking on my part, because if they aren't biologically capable of experiencing true empathy, the alternative is that they are choosing not to. 

I agree, there is likely a biological connection lacking(lack of better terminology on my part) for some. But, sadly, I've seen, watched, experienced, read about, heard, etc..etc.. far too many instances of this to suggest it's more biological than intentional. I wish that weren't the case, not that it would make it any easier to deal with, see, experience. But because it would at the very least offer glimmer of hope, simply for people in general. I don't think some people realize what the trickle down effects of prejudice and discrimination can cause to even those that aren't on the receiving end. It's super easy to ignore things, when they don't affect you (general, of course). 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Tari Landar

[Love Zhaoying]

21 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

29 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thankfully, we have laws against at least SOME types of discrimination in real life.

yes its a terrible violation of your human and civil rights if someone refuses to bake you a cake

I am not referring to that. I am referring to such things as "no blacks allowed", etc.  

Funny how you don't see the connection between discrimination following desegregation, and the current "cake" case.

They may as well be refusing to bake a cake because the couple is Muslim, or Catholic, or Black, or non-English speaking. Would THAT be ok with you?

[Nalytha]

5 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

It's the whole "I don't experience it, therefore it cannot possibly be a problem" willfully ignorant trend. 

I had an experience a couple of weeks ago that had me wondering if I was experiencing prejudice (which is rare to consider, since I am white.) I made an appointment with an eyedoctor to use my benefits before the end of the year. Most places are fully booked in December because everyone is doing the same thing. So without much research, I just called every office I could find until someone had an opening. It wasn't until I hit the waiting room that I realized that I was in a predominantly poor, black neighborhood. The place was packed and I was the only white person there for over two hours. I had exceptionally crappy service, but I'm not crying over it.

1. I don't know if it had anything to do with my race 

and 

2. Even if it did, it was a valuable experience to try to put myself in the shoes of people who face real discrimination based on their skin color everyday.