Should commercial ventures and estates in SL be allowed to discriminate?

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

there is biological things that go into empathy. I personally believe some folks simply are neurologically unable to show a certain degree of empathy.

We call those people "psychopaths".

[Nalytha]

2 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I agree, there is likely a biological connection lacking(lack of better terminology on my part) for some. But, sadly, I've seen, watched, experienced, read about, heard, etc..etc.. far too many instances of this to suggest it's more biological than intentional. I wish that weren't the case, not that it would make it any easier to deal with, see, experience. But because it would at the very least offer glimmer of hope, simply for people in general. I don't think some people realize what the trickle down effects of prejudice and discrimination can cause to even those that aren't on the receiving end. It's super easy to ignore things, when they don't affect you (general, of course). 

I've always been extremely empathetic. It's not something I've ever had to work for. I've been with my husband for 15 years, and empathy does not come easy to him. He has told me many times that much of the progress he's made in the empathy department is from learning it from me. He still struggles, but I do see improvement. 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Nalytha said:

I had an experience a couple of weeks ago that had me wondering if I was experiencing prejudice (which is rare to consider, since I am white.) I made an appointment with an eyedoctor to use my benefits before the end of the year. Most places are fully booked in December because everyone is doing the same thing. So without much research, I just called every office I could find until someone had an opening. It wasn't until I hit the waiting room that I realized that I was in a predominantly poor, black neighborhood. The place was packed and I was the only white person there for over two hours. I had exceptionally crappy service, but I'm not crying over it.

1. I don't know if it had anything to do with my race 

and 

2. Even if it did, it was a valuable experience to try to put myself in the shoes of people who face real discrimination based on their skin color everyday. 

Sometimes people get crappy service if they aren't respectful, kind, patient, etc.  (In other words, if they act "entitled".) So, next time be sure to check yourself - just in case it was you!

[Nalytha]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Sometimes people get crappy service if they aren't respectful, kind, patient, etc.  (In other words, if they act "entitled".) So, next time be sure to check yourself - just in case it was you!

I'm positive it wasn't me. I might sound like a jerk online, but irl everyone loves me <3 

[Love Zhaoying]

31 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

prejudice is a natural human condition. if the truth be told what you and others in this thread really want is a world free of white prejudice

You are just so darned ignorant! Place two toddlers, or even pre-school or kindergarten children of different races together, and they play as equals. 

It is only once their parents, and society, have introduced prejudice do these same children exhibit prejudice.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Nalytha said:

I'm positive it wasn't me. I might sound like a jerk online, but irl everyone loves me <3 

Could be that the office workers had a "bad day". Or, they knew you why you were there at the last minute and didn't appreciate it.  These offices don't always seem too sympathetic with our "last minute" needs.

[Nalytha]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Could be that the office workers had a "bad day". Or, they knew you why you were there at the last minute and didn't appreciate it.  These offices don't always seem too sympathetic with our "last minute" needs.

No, that's not it. I arrived two hours before closing. The staff was super friendly with me, but they basically saw every single person besides me first. I had actually called that day to let them know I couldn't make the original scheduled time and I offered to book another day .. it was their suggestion for me to come in at the time I did. And by the time they saw me, doors were locked, lights were going off, and I was given maybe two minutes in the exam chair before I was sent off with a completely wrong contact trial prescription. 

[Luna Bliss]

I was asked to leave a meeting for black women at a music festival, and while I felt awkward having to get up and leave in front of a large room of people, I took it as a learning experience - a chance to experience what it felt like to be excluded on the basis of race.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I was asked to leave a meeting for black women at a music festival, and while I felt awkward having to get up and leave in front of a large room of people, I took it as a learning experience - a chance to experience what it felt like to be excluded on the basis of race.

Noted.

On a related note: Interesting that men are starting to want "Men's Rights" and "Men-Only" groups since Women have those now.  What's lacking, is the understand that those who WERE oppressed need these "us-only" groups in order to plan, regroup, strengthen, and heal. Those who were the oppressors do not need any such groups.

[Aethelwine]

3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

My refusing to bake you a cake does not make you a second class citizen.

It seems that the right to force someone to interact with you is a now a basic human right?

If you have too many preorders to bake my cake then no problem. But if you tell me you aren't baking me a cake because I am gay then yes you are choosing to treat me as second class. Not only are you treating me as second class you are telling me you are, insulting me. 

[Luna Bliss]

11 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

17 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Because businesses provide needed services to everyone in the community, some so necessary that they are a matter of life and death or can at the very least cause suffering to those denied access (the only hospital in town denying services to someone they hate, or a hospital denying partner visitation for a dying patient because the partner is 'gay' and so deemed as 'not family'). While it's perhaps not of much consequence if the 'unapproved of' person or object of discrimination has other choices, in many cases they do not, or at the very least the alternate choices are substandard (back of the bus).
There's no reason why we can't deem these 'unapproved of' persons a protected class and make provisions for them so they can live freely like every other person in society.

Sure, it would be better if we did not have to regulate stupidity, but the reality is that there's a lot of stupid people out there who lack empathy and think they have a right to label others as bad and make them suffer.

Yes yes yes essential services... but when was it a basic human right to be able to force someone to cut your hair or bake you a cake?

You can't really segment off what's essential vs what is not in many cases, so the law has to be applied equally.

What's essential to one person might not be to another. For example, driving through the southwest often there's only one gas station in a town. What would you have the law do -- police each car driving through to make sure they could  actually drive to another town and so could not claim a discrimination when not serviced?  What you propose (this division) is just not practical, and also doesn't reflect the type of society most want to live in (fair, not prejudiced).

[Innula Zenovka]

7 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

No, that's not it. I arrived two hours before closing. The staff was super friendly with me, but they basically saw every single person besides me first. I had actually called that day to let them know I couldn't make the original scheduled time and I offered to book another day .. it was their suggestion for me to come in at the time I did. And by the time they saw me, doors were locked, lights were going off, and I was given maybe two minutes in the exam chair before I was sent off with a completely wrong contact trial prescription. 

If that means you had an appointment for that day and phoned them to tell them you couldn't make it, then that makes sense.     My dentist operates a similar system -- if I have a scheduled appointment but can't make it, then either I can book for a different day or, if I want, I can turn up and I will be seen that day but only when the dentist can see me without impinging on other patients' appointments.

I thought you'd said you had to have the examination then or you would miss your entitlement to a free one, or something.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

On a related note: Interesting that men are starting to want "Men's Rights" and "Men-Only" groups since Women have those now.  What's lacking, is the understand that those who WERE oppressed need these "us-only" groups in order to plan, regroup, strengthen, and heal. Those who were the oppressors do not need any such groups.

Exactly...they are unable to recognize their privileged status in society, and unable to empathize with those who have been oppressed. It's pretty creepy, in some of their mind-bubbles they even deny prejudice exists at all, or worse think it's a fine attribute.

[Nalytha]

3 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

If you have too many preorders to bake my cake then no problem. But if you tell me you aren't baking me a cake because I am gay then yes you are choosing to treat me as second class. Not only are you treating me as second class you are telling me you are, insulting me. 

I think the especially insidious thing about this is that it isn't hard to guess why someone doesn't approve of you being gay -- religious reasons usually. Whenever I think of this cake thing, I think that the person isn't just saying "I don't approve of gays" but "God doesn't approve of you!" And that just seems especially hurtful. 

[Nalytha]

4 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

If that means you had an appointment for that day and phoned them to tell them you couldn't make it, then that makes sense.     My dentist operates a similar system -- if I have a scheduled appointment but can't make it, then either I can book for a different day or, if I want, I can turn up and I will be seen that day but only when the dentist can see me without impinging on other patients' appointments.

I thought you'd said you had to have the examination then or you would miss your entitlement to a free one, or something.

I offered to come in another day. The receptionist on the phone said someone cancelled at X time that day, so they'd be more than happy to see me. 

Edit: I just needed to see them in the month of December, not necessarily that day.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Nalytha

[Innula Zenovka]

3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

My refusing to bake you a cake does not make you a second class citizen.

It seems that the right to force someone to interact with you is a now a basic human right?

No.  All the law says is that if you go into business offering goods or services to the general public, then you have to offer them to everyone without discriminating against particular groups of people.   Otherwise you can, of course, interact with people (or not) as you choose.     

If you don't want to run the risk of having to bake cakes for people with whom you might not want to associate out of business hours, then maybe running a bakery isn't a good career choice.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

4 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

My refusing to bake you a cake does not make you a second class citizen.

It seems that the right to force someone to interact with you is a now a basic human right?

No.  All the law says is that if you go into business offering goods or services to the general public, then you have to offer them to everyone without discriminating against particular groups of people.   Otherwise you can, of course, interact with people (or not) as you choose.     

If you don't want to run the risk of having to bake cakes for people with whom you might not want to associate out of business hours, then maybe running a bakery isn't a good career choice.

Thanks for this. In addition: No one says you are "forced to interact" with someone. Just sell them a damned cake, have your flunkies take the order or use an internet form. 

If "interaction" is the standard, the problem is worse than we thought!

[Love Zhaoying]

33 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

No, that's not it. I arrived two hours before closing. The staff was super friendly with me, but they basically saw every single person besides me first. I had actually called that day to let them know I couldn't make the original scheduled time and I offered to book another day .. it was their suggestion for me to come in at the time I did. And by the time they saw me, doors were locked, lights were going off, and I was given maybe two minutes in the exam chair before I was sent off with a completely wrong contact trial prescription. 

That's one way to make sure you don't come back!

[Love Zhaoying]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

[Madelaine McMasters]

23 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

Why does a small business in a local community need to serve the entire nation to be successful or operate efficiently? Large corporations reduce value to a mere dollar figure, and in the long run do not help our society or our culture. Small businesses remain human and operate according to the full range of human values, and produce a culture that thrives.

There are things that, to be efficacious, must be done at large scale, whether by corporations or governments. That scale invites both abuse and scrutiny. Scale doesn't necessitate reduction to mere dollar figure. Imagine a time in which there are no large endeavors, or read about it in ancient history books.

Nor do I think that operating according to the full range of human values is necessarily good. Those values evolved in tribal settings. With 7.6 billion people on Earth (13% more than when I joined SL in 2008) we need something better than tribalism.

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

prejudice is a natural human condition. if the truth be told what you and others in this thread really want is a world free of white prejudice

As is susceptibility to disease. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fight it.

To tell the truth of what Love Zhaoying really wants, you'd have to know it. I don't know Love's mind and I've no reason to believe you do either. I am suspicious of people who claim to know that other people are thinking. I'm not even sure what I'm thinking.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Love Zhaoying]

39 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

"God doesn't approve of you!" And that just seems especially hurtful. 

They don't understand God very well. After all, who do you think created the gays?

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

They don't understand God very well. After all, who do you think created the gays?

That would be Evolution.

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

prejudice is a natural human condition. if the truth be told what you and others in this thread really want is a world free of white prejudice

As is susceptibility to disease. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fight it.

To tell the truth of what Love Zhaoying really wants, you'd have to know it. I don't know Love's mind and I've no reason to believe you do either. I am highly suspicious of people who claim to know that other people are thinking.

I want a world: Free of white prejudice, free of black prejudice, free of gay prejudice, free of straight prejudice, free of male prejudice, free of female prejudice, free of age prejudice, free of religious prejudice..I could go on.  For her to assume "we" only want a world free of "white prejudice" is wrong. So, thanks for catching this.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

They don't understand God very well. After all, who do you think created the gays?

That would be Evolution.

Same thing, depending on your POV. These same people probably don't believe in evolution.