Where Do People Get This Idea?

[Prokofy Neva]

Perhaps those of you who aren't in the Mainland rentals line could explain to me...or even if you are, if you have closed groups...or something.

The single most frequent problem I have with tenants is they arrive, for reasons that seem inexplicable but have to do with human nature and its tendency to salivate at a rezzed-out rental box, pay the box even if there is a house already on it, then began to tap their little avatar foot impatiently, angry that they can't return that house owned by another person.

But...in what kind of set-up could they ever return another person's house ANYWAY?

I have open groups, so obviously, I can't have the right to return group-set objects available just for joining the OPEN group.

People would return rental boxes, first of all, then other people's houses they don't like or anything that isn't on their empty lot. So that's no good.

I have group permissions set up so that AFTER people pay and have joined the open group with tenant title, I switch them to resident powers where they can return *non-group* items. But if they have autoreturn on, that takes care of itself. It's rare I will add to anyone the right to return group-set items.

But...surely a CLOSED group would have the same set-up, no? Even if you send an invitation to the group, you still wouldn't want them returning group-set items, would you? I mean, let's say you had every rental box on a little separate square of land on the parcel in its own group (the way some landlords solve the "return the rent box" problem, but one I don't want to waste prims and effort on). You would still not want even a paying tenant to return, oh, your bushes on a commons land or someone else's house in the group they didn't fancy.

So what is the use case under which people get used to this idea that they can return things on land just because they paid?

I *think* it could be a situation where they have "purchased" (really it's a form of rent) a parcel on an island which they can then have THEIR OWN group. Then they would return anything that isn't in their group, if there was such a situation where the previous owner of a lot on an island hadn't paid their rent, and their stuff stayed there, even when the land reverted to sale again. But...is that something that can be done automatically with tools?

I just don't get where people acquire this vehement assurance that they should be able to return other people's things -- and ANGER when they aren't instantly given this right. I get it that people aren't used to Mainland, and they arrive thinking you will change your group land to their group (not!) and so on. It takes awhile to grasp. But I would think even with automatic rental devices, a landlord wouldn't want to casually hand out this ability to change land to a group, either. Tying payment to land operations is not available in LSL anyway, is it? And if it now is on (expensive) scripted rental systems, again, why have this be an automatic feature?

 

[MoondustMaia]

I don't rent very often, but I think that in most of the situations, even if it was closed group (but common for the whole rental community) I have not been allowed to return items belonging to the group.  I do recall at a rental not too long ago, there was something left in the house from a prior tenant, and I had to contact the rental manager and wait for it to be removed.  It had not occurred to me to think that I should be able to return group items when there is a common rental group.  If there were a lot of prior tenant items remaining on an available rental, I would probably look for another spot, wondering if the prior tenant and the land owner had some type of other arrangement or waiting period going on.

[K9Mark]

I think it is private estates that give them the idea of setting mainland to their own groups, simply because a lot of people don't really understand the differences between the two so they just assume it can be done.

My returns permission policy is that they can't return anything at all, but they can TP me and I'll return things for them. I explain that it's for their own safety and if everyone had that permission, anyone in the group would be able to return anything at all on any of the group parcels. They understand that once I have explained it to them and I virtually never get tenants getting angry about it.

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 8/29/2017 at 9:46 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

I just don't get where people acquire this vehement assurance that they should be able to return other people's things -- and ANGER when they aren't instantly given this right. I get it that people aren't used to Mainland, and they arrive thinking you will change your group land to their group (not!) and so on. It takes awhile to grasp. But I would think even with automatic rental devices, a landlord wouldn't want to casually hand out this ability to change land to a group, either. Tying payment to land operations is not available in LSL anyway, is it? And if it now is on (expensive) scripted rental systems, again, why have this be an automatic feature?

 

You'll find that screeching in anger at things that one doesn't understand is quite common - some even develop a wide reputation for it.

On a private island the renter can actually be given owner status of the land they rent - this can be taken away by the estate manager if they default on their rent. This means they can return anything on the lot, including landlord-provided items, without being able to do the same thing on any other lot.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

On 8/29/2017 at 9:46 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

 

So what is the use case under which people get used to this idea that they can return things on land just because they paid?

 

 

When u BUY land, ie have your name show up as owner in about land you can instantly return everything on the parcel.

Mainland renters are just that, renters, they have whatever limited rights the real owner chooses to give them when the owner chooses to log in and give you rights.

I've seen mainland parcels for sale that have an active rent box and someone living there. If I bought the land i could instantly eject the renter, returning everything, including the for sale and rent boxes.

I would never ever even consider renting mainland, despite the lower per prim price. I want MY name as owner in about land, and all the rights that go with it.

Edited September 2, 2017 by BilliJo Aldrin
Added 2 lines at the end, just because I can

[BilliJo Aldrin]

22 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

On a private island the renter can actually be given owner status of the land they rent - this can be taken away by the estate manager if they default on their rent.

You aren't "given" owner status, you receive it automatically when you "buy" the land. Its  no different that buying mainland.

You will find your land taken away on main land just the same  if you fail to pay LL your monthly tier or pay your premium membership fee. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by BilliJo Aldrin
added a line for clarity

[Pamus Bing]

One good reason to steer clear of mainland.

If you pay rent for a Sim then you are paying for the prims on that Sim. With exceptions of clauses in the convent, where say, there is a Travel system, or X number of prims need to be free for sailing.

It is very simple you pay for a plot or Sim, Then within a reasonable length of time, you should be given permission to return whatever you want. Unless it is agreed that certain prims remain.

In RL you buy a house, you do not expect the previous owners thing to be in that house when you move in, if they are they as it is your house you remove said items, It is the same with SL.

(For information I help run a 14 Sim Historic Estate, also have full permissions on that Estate.)

[BilliJo Aldrin]

I'm currently renting a property on a sailing estate, there are restricitions on what i can do, but the minute i bought the parcel, I was able to return everything on the parcel., because i "bought" it, I'm not renting it. 

Buy: your name is on the about land as owner.

Rent: sim owners name is on the about land as owner.

Either way I'm paying rent every week to the owner, but owning gives you far greater flexibility, and far more powers

[Prokofy Neva]

6 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

When u BUY land, ie have your name show up as owner in about land you can instantly return everything on the parcel.

Mainland renters are just that, renters, they have whatever limited rights the real owner chooses to give them when the owner chooses to log in and give you rights.

I've seen mainland parcels for sale that have an active rent box and someone living there. If I bought the land i could instantly eject the renter, returning everything, including the for sale and rent boxes.

I would never ever even consider renting mainland, despite the lower per prim price. I want MY name as owner in about land, and all the rights that go with it.

Mainland "owners" may be "just renters" from Governor Linden, but Governor Linden over the years has proven a far more stable landlord than a number of island landlords who dump their customers who "bought" their land. Governor Linden doesn't have to pay tier, in a sense, on its land -- of course it has server costs, but this is an overall business cost. Meanwhile, your island "seller" is always one month away from dumping you if he can't meet tier himself. You are at his mercy.

So "have your name" all you want, but your situation in the large scheme of things is far less stable than a Mainland purchase, and frankly even a Mainland rental, as many landlords have been in business for years.

Even so, it's not clear why people who paid  rental box on land that says it is a rental, with a group to join, still think they should be able to return everything on that parcel.

The whole reason they are renting on the Mainland is that it is far cheaper than "buying" on an island, where you have the one-time purchase price AND the tier, which is usually higher than on the Mainland.

People have different values and needs. Renting can give you greater flexibility, in fact, because you don't have to lose your "investment" in the purchase price if you can't pay the tier. You stop renting and that's it.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Mainland "owners" may be "just renters" from Governor Linden, but Governor Linden over the years has proven a far more stable landlord than a number of island landlords who dump their customers who "bought" their land. Governor Linden doesn't have to pay tier, in a sense, on its land -- of course it has server costs, but this is an overall business cost. Meanwhile, your island "seller" is always one month away from dumping you if he can't meet tier himself. You are at his mercy.

So "have your name" all you want, but your situation in the large scheme of things is far less stable than a Mainland purchase, and frankly even a Mainland rental, as many landlords have been in business for years.

Even so, it's not clear why people who paid  rental box on land that says it is a rental, with a group to join, still think they should be able to return everything on that parcel.

The whole reason they are renting on the Mainland is that it is far cheaper than "buying" on an island, where you have the one-time purchase price AND the tier, which is usually higher than on the Mainland.

People have different values and needs. Renting can give you greater flexibility, in fact, because you don't have to lose your "investment" in the purchase price if you can't pay the tier. You stop renting and that's it.

You seem to have it backwards, buying mainland is where u have to pay several thousand Lindens to the current owner, and then pay monthly tier to LL. On an estate you buy the land for a nominal amount, usually 1 L or, as is more likely, first weeks rent.

I agree with you people renting land, (their name will not be on the "about land" as owner) should not expect instant gratification. Every  mainland parcel I've looked at has said quite clearly in the rental note card that you must wait for the land owner to give you access to the land group before you can do anything with the land, and that your rental will commence as soon as u are added to the group.

Of course I'm sure there are lots of ignorant renters that probably don't even understand the difference between mainland and private estates and what they can expect in either situation.

Bottom line, I'd rather rent ( buy) from an estate owner than rent (rent) from Joe Blow mainland owner who can just as easily default on his tier as an estate owner can.

At the end of the day, the only way to protect yourself from land owners that may default on the tier and cause you to lose your property, is to become premium, and become  a land owner yourself by buying mainland. Then all you have to worry about is Linden Labs itself shutting down.

Edited September 2, 2017 by BilliJo Aldrin
added a paragraph at the end

[Paul Hexem]

I have to echo what others said. "Renting" by joining the group of someone that actually owns the land is barely renting at all, and is the minority.

Every other situation when you get land, rent box or not, you get the land including all the land controls and abilities. If you're not getting full control over the land you're paying for, why pay for it? Unless it's massively discounted.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 9/2/2017 at 4:15 PM, BilliJo Aldrin said:

You seem to have it backwards, buying mainland is where u have to pay several thousand Lindens to the current owner, and then pay monthly tier to LL. On an estate you buy the land for a nominal amount, usually 1 L or, as is more likely, first weeks rent.

 

Um, I don't have it "backward," I simply have an opinion different than yours based on 12 years of experience running Mainland rentals.

It's not true that estates only have "nominal amounts". Some have significant costs. Some ask for two months up front. There are all kinds of arrangements. While it's true that island land costs less now that there is more of a hustle to get customers, it's still varied not "one dollar" for a whole piece of land.

You seemed to have missed my statement that I have an OPEN group. That means that people can join and start building right away without having to wait for a landlord as the meter runs down. Then they are given more powers on the land like ban, media etc. This is a great system. The problem is when people see a rezzed-out rental box and don't seem to grasp that a house still on that land means it is in a grace period. Sure, there are more sophisticated and more costly rental systems that can instantly remove prims (so I'm told) or can have flags indicating the property is not available. I don't care to spend on them and I prefer to work manually because I think I keep more customers that way.

Since most people rent from the islands -- there are something like 20,000 islands and 5,000 mainland sims -- I don't mind if they are confused or used to a different system -- I have multiple ways of explaining the difference. What I definitely don't like is the angry and churlish foot-tapping and reproach as if I'm some sort of greedy landlord stealing from them -- instead of in fact making good on a pledge to an existing tenant. They can always refund in my system, unlike most.

In my experience, the die-hards who are in the mainland rentals business for years don't leave easily. There are a number of leading companies that have been around for years and I don't think you have to worry about them defaulting on tier. They can carve up their empires. The island owner has to pay the whole island tier or go down.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Gadget Portal said:

I have to echo what others said. "Renting" by joining the group of someone that actually owns the land is barely renting at all, and is the minority.

Every other situation when you get land, rent box or not, you get the land including all the land controls and abilities. If you're not getting full control over the land you're paying for, why pay for it? Unless it's massively discounted.

Renting in a group on the Mainland you get the same rights you would renting on an island, only in the landowner's group: ban, media, change parcel description, terraform, plant etc.

So it's not "barely renting," it's renting, with more safety as you can refund in many cases, or you will be paying a lower cost and not lose a lot of money if the owner disappears.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Um, I don't have it "backward," I simply have an opinion different than yours based on 12 years of experience running Mainland rentals.

 

There you go, right there is why you think renting on mainland is so much better than buying on an estate.

You have a vested interest in convincing people that renting from a "stable" mainland owner such as yourself who will never default on their tier is far better than buying from one of those fly by night estates owner who might disappear at a moments notice.

In fact you go so far as to claim that having limited rights with you is far superior to having full rights on an estate.

I'm a disinterested party offering an honest assessment of the differences between renting mainland  and buying on an estate, you are promoting your business.

I would love to hear the Chungs opinion of your assessment, who have 13 years experience in selling estate land to thousands of satisfied customers.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Do you want to own land without being premium? Go to a private estate run by a long term reputable estate owner.

Do you want to rent land from someone who could default on his tier just as easily as an estate owner? Go see Prokofy Neva.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Renting in a group on the Mainland you get the same rights you would renting on an island, only in the landowner's group: ban, media, change parcel description, terraform, plant etc.

So it's not "barely renting," it's renting, with more safety as you can refund in many cases, or you will be paying a lower cost and not lose a lot of money if the owner disappears.

I want my own group on my own land. You also seem to fail to understand that any other renter in the same  land group as me could come to my rental and change all my setting.

Yet another reason why buying on an estate and having your own private group is far better that having land rights through a renters group. 

Thank you Mr Neva for once again showing why buying on an estate is the way to go.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Gadget Portal said:

I have to echo what others said. "Renting" by joining the group of someone that actually owns the land is barely renting at all, and is the minority.

Every other situation when you get land, rent box or not, you get the land including all the land controls and abilities. If you're not getting full control over the land you're paying for, why pay for it? Unless it's massively discounted.

Bingo, mainland is massively discounted over estates. The per prim price is far lower, sometimes 30% or more. Anyone wanting the lowest price possible with no other considerations,   I say go rent some mainland,  but anyone wanting full rights and the security their own private group will bring, they need to buy from an estate owner.

[Paul Hexem]

28 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Renting in a group on the Mainland you get the same rights you would renting on an island, only in the landowner's group: ban, media, change parcel description, terraform, plant etc.

So it's not "barely renting," it's renting, with more safety as you can refund in many cases, or you will be paying a lower cost and not lose a lot of money if the owner disappears.

Until I can put it in my own group, return all the crap that isn't mine, rename the parcel to mine, it's barely renting. When you rent from private estates, you get all that.

8 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I want my own group on my own land. You also seem to fail to understand that any other renter in the same  land group as me could come to my rental and change all my setting.

Yet another reason why buying on an estate and having your own private group is far better that having land rights through a renters group. 

Thank you Mr Neva for once again showing why buying on an estate is the way to go.

Also, that. If I have all the controls in that system, so does everybody else, and it's not so much my land as it is community land, so I'd want it for free or silly cheap.

4 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Bingo, mainland is massively discounted over estates. The per prim price is far lower, sometimes 30% or more. Anyone wanting the lowest price possible with no other considerations,   I say go rent some mainland,  but anyone wanting full rights and the security their own private group will bring, they need to buy from an estate owner.

Personally, I buy mainland, and that's what I tell everyone else to do, too. No middleman between me and LL that way, and I get full control over the land.

[Qie Niangao]

I'm surely missing something obvious, but I don't understand why a previous tenant's house is still on a parcel that's available for rent. I realize there's a bigger question here about group land abilities, but the specific problem of the previous tenant's stuff seems simple enough to solve with a rental box scripted to, upon payment by a new tenant, llReturnObjectsByOwner() stuff owned by llGetParcelPrimOwners() not among the landlord's approved, object-rezzing agents (plus maybe other paying tenants whose stuff has strayed a bit).

Zooming way out to the religious debate about Estates vs Mainland: You know, despite owning some Mainland and having a few tenants of my own, I also rent a little Estate space in a region I find interesting. There I have way, way fewer permissions than I give my Mainland tenants. If I wanted to have more permissions, I could rent somewhere else -- but then my neighbors would also have more permissions. That stricter regulation is better for some purposes.

[Qie Niangao]

6 hours ago, Gadget Portal said:

Until I can put it in my own group, return all the crap that isn't mine, rename the parcel to mine, it's barely renting. When you rent from private estates, you get all that.

There are Mainland rentals that do all that, with the limitation that "own group" is a group specific to the individual rental, with tenants getting all group permissions that don't include selling the land nor kicking the landlord's agent from the group. That's not good enough for store groups that must be owned and completely controlled by the store owner (but it's often better not to use a store group as land group anyway).

[Hintswen Guardian]

On 9/3/2017 at 6:03 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

Even so, it's not clear why people who paid  rental box on land that says it is a rental, with a group to join, still think they should be able to return everything on that parcel.

It's because people want the land to use when they pay for it, not whenever a staff member gets the chance to go over and remove whatever junk is left behind.

On 9/4/2017 at 6:33 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

The problem is when people see a rezzed-out rental box and don't seem to grasp that a house still on that land means it is in a grace period

Grace period? Why would there be a grace period? If the rental box says availablee the land is available isn't it? Unless your rental boxes say "grace period" in which case why do they allow someone else to come along and start a rental?

On 9/4/2017 at 6:33 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't care to spend on them and I prefer to work manually because I think I keep more customers that way.

You think you keep more customers by doing things the slow manual way rather than the quick way that gets the new tenant in their land ASAP. Well that is strange.

On 9/4/2017 at 6:34 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

Renting in a group on the Mainland you get the same rights you would renting on an island, only in the landowner's group: ban, media, change parcel description, terraform, plant etc.

Except you cannot use a radio object unless you are able to deed it to the group. It also means you can't really ban anyone in the group (which considering you have an open group means you can't really ban anyone at all).

On 9/4/2017 at 7:09 PM, Gadget Portal said:

Until I can put it in my own group, return all the crap that isn't mine, rename the parcel to mine, it's barely renting. When you rent from private estates, you get all that.

My rentals do all that except the first. Would that still put you off renting mainland? (just wondering)

[Paul Hexem]

9 hours ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

My rentals do all that except the first. Would that still put you off renting mainland? (just wondering)

I currently "own" my own mainland anyway, I get it direct from LL so I can do all those things I want. Premium works out for me.

If I were ever going to rent land that wasn't absolutely 100% in my name, it'd have to be heavily discounted to get me as a customer.

[Nikolai Warden]

Some people I know rent parcels, full sims, and homesteads at cost, because owning a private region is not always driven by profit. Two people I know parcel their sims quite generously and rent by the prim rather than by the amount of land. So for instance, a renter wants use of a maximum of 1000 prims. The parcel they rent holds 1500 prims. The parcels are all set to the same group and the "owner" manages the parcel via the settings in about land.

The group that the parcels are all set to are closed groups, so the only people who can rez are one's neighbors. Given that each parcel has prims to spare, people can "borrow" prims if they are building something, or say, having an event, without having items returned. If prims get tight, people clean up their building platforms or tighten their orim belts a wee bit here and there, because their neighbors do the same for them.

This does not work for everyone, of course. However, for the last three years I have lived at sims that run this way and it is a very friendly, neighborly way of doing things.

I lived on a large mainland parcel owned by a friend, and it was a less than satisfactory experience. One can live in sky boxes or domes, or use screens on the ground, but if living on the ground, there tends to be such flotsom suspended at low altitude nearby that reducing one's draw distance is necessary.

Ban lines abound, and it can take a lot of prims to hide the horrid, dated ground textures. The limited terraforming is also a challenge in creating a nice environment on the ground.

 Lag on a mainland sim can occur with nothing to be done about it. One cannot turn off a neighbor's heavily scripted objects, nor do anything about someone who has autoreturn off and their parcel open to object entry  object creation, and scripts.

Given such limitations, I would choose to pay a wee bit more to live on a private sim than mainland, were that necessary. I do not know, but suspect that there are at least as many reputable private estate owners as there are mainland owners.

Oh and in my experience, "purchasing" land at a private region usually costs very little if anything, or at most, the first week's rent.

I have friends that get together and share the cost of a sim, and that can work out well. It can also end in disaster, though it seems to me that if they are good friends and not romantic partners, it tends to work out better. 

[Prokofy Neva]

@Qie Niangao Yes, you are surely missing something. Because there's a grace period of two days. That's a policy and a preference that I think is required for mainland rentals. There is fairly high competition for customers on the Mainland; there's very high competition between private island rentals and Mainland, and so in my view, you have to add this sweetener.

It used to be there were no scripted events at all that tied payment or expiration of payment to prims or permissions. So originally the rental script I used didn't have that. And over the years I changed that script (by having scripters re-do the open source script) to add features but those harsh, automatic prim returns was something I did not want. I think it is a bad business practice.

First, by giving a grace period, you make most customers have the confidence that their items won't be harshly returned just because they can't log on at a precise time -- and the overwhelming majority pay on time and don't use the grace period. That's a fact.

Second, given the competition, you don't lose customers who decide, once their prims have all been thrown back in their faces in a bunch that they don't want to bother to put them out again, they might as well move.

Third, increasingly, returning prims leads to loss of objects, and increasingly, people have a lot of no-copy gatcha objects. So that's superannoying and makes customers furious.

People in my groups get to join and set prims without waiting for me to appear, which I find another terrible business practice -- making people who have PAID you wait hours or even days to access their land. They get extra powers after I confirm their payment which enables them to return non-group prims, change parcel description, ban people, use media, terraform, etc.

I don't need to give them the right to return group-set prims as they would return the rental boxes, or anything they didn't like, let's say trees on commons or fellow tenants' houses they don't like. You can't have that in group rentals. I see no reason to make separate little parcels with a closed group just for the boxes (like Desmond does) -- it takes land out of groups that could be adding bonuses and so on. It's not rational.

I asked this question at the top not because this is a chronic problem -- people coming and finding a tenant who has left hasn't cleaned up and getting exasperated that the land is clear. I asked it because WHEN there is a problem -- which is not the norm -- this happens, and I want to understand its mechanics -- FROM WHERE, they get this expectation. Because no one gives them an open group AND right to return group-set prims -- that would be folly. And those with closed groups don't give this right because they're return management prims. So where does it come from? There are two pieces of this problem: a) their expectation b) the situation producing this expectation. Most of the snarkers in this thread are dealing with b) and saying "don't allow this situation then you won't have a". But I am putting a different proposition -- I am going to keep this policy, tell me where the expectation comes from, i.e. what rentals groups, what practices, so I can explain "Oh, it's not like that, it's this". I already have cards explaining differences between mainland and private islands, for example.

A store does not have to have its own group. I have plenty of customers in my malls in my group without any of that. Some vendors require that you put things in the land menu for them to work -- but my tenants can do that.  They can use subscribers to have people join their group without a group joiner on their group land. And there is even a group joiner that you can set on your group land and enable people to use it to join other groups.

Hintswen Guardian -- um, no, it's not about "whenever I feel like it" as I am very prompt. Unlike other rentals, my customers don't languish waiting for a prim-a-donna to come and deign to let them in the group. They instantly pay and start decorating. If a lot is in search, it's ready to be built on or decorated. If it isn't in search or my listings, it's not. That makes it pretty easy as most people come by search or the list.

The few that might range around and find an unpaid box in its grace period appearing if it is available can't be expected to know a system about grace periods. But then it's easy enough to either refund them if you know the existing tenant is staying or contact that tenant and tell him to remove his things.

The boxes allow people to come along and rent them even while the land is in a grace period because THAT IS MY POLICY. I know it's a shocking concept, policies instead of scripts to decide things. But I like that human rather than machine touch, and I think I retain more customers as a result.

My rules state that if you don't pay on time, yes, there's a grace period, but anyone may come along and ask to have your prims removed if they want it. So that deters people from abusing the grace period. It means that deadbeats can't endlessly leave stuff there and get free rent.

But it also means I have FLEXIBILITY if a box is in a grace period, and I know in real life, a tenant's RL husband has died, or that they are traveling, or they are in a hurricane zone, that I can tell that eager new customer that sorry, I need to IM the previous person, and they'd want me to do the same thing for them.

I would say this situation happens about once every 60 days. So it's not the horror imagined because of other built-in checks (land search, policy to take if no answer to notification) and the reality is: it retains customers, the end. 

Do you rent out GROUP land yourself? I'm going to guess that you can't possibly, because you don't get two chief features here of groups:

o You don't have to queue up and wait for an officer of the group to come deed your TV any more -- that hasn't been the case of years. You can now grant the power to deed group objects as one of the abilities in a role.

o The open group has initially "tenant"; but as soon as I see them join the group or make a payment or see their IMs, I check off the box on the group for the next higher level of "resident". That gives them the extra powers like deeding as long as they remain in the group. 

o You have it wrong about how "you can't really ban anyone". Of course you can. This is a relatively new feature. You can now have an open group AND ban anyone who is a griefer or deadbeat who won't stop overprimming or whatever. You add their name to the list quickly like banning on a land menu, that's all there is to it.

Nothing strange about the slow manual way to adjudicate situations that arise rarely.

Most of the parcels are empty and ready to rent because the previous person cleans up after themselves -- I know it is shocking to run a system on the majority of people who are of good will, but I prefer it.

Most that have a tenant's house AND a rezzed-out box aren't known to be available BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT IN SEARCH AND NOT IN THE LIST.

Those few left that someone might stumble on are dealt with by refunds, a notice to the previous tenant, a request to wait a few hours, so that way, neither tenant is lost. The prospective tenant who paid a parcel not really available can be guided to another similar option.

@Nikolai Warden -- you are describing mainland accurately, but in places with many owners on a sim where your view is a crap shoot.

But if like me, you have spent 12 years "owning the view," gradually buying all of a sim or its views on to other sims, you have nice little communities that don't have those problems you mention.

You can landscape to get rid of the ugly ground textures. Tenants have terraforming abilities. You can get rid of flotsam if it appears but why would it? The land is on autoreturn so only tenants' prims are there. If a griefer happens to join the open group -- which happens perhaps a few times a year -- you instantly ban him and return the spam, the end. Most of the time, the horrors always invoked DO NOT happen.

All of the problems people raise here with Mainland and open groups are hysterical hypotheticals based on coders' 1/0 thinking. Either it's all that way, or it isn't. Either the mere POSSIBILITY that someone might rent a parcel with a confusing box rezzed out poisons the entire system and makes it worthless. OR you run ruthless prim-return prisons.

There's never the organic human actuality: that in most cases, the hysterical hypothetical doesn't happen. In those few cases it does, organic human behavior solves it.

This is how I prefer life in the rigid confines of the coded virtual world, always ready to crush the human being.

I know they have left because I get a notice from the box it is expired, and I don't immediately have another payment or the person even IMs me and says thanks, they're leaving.

My rentals aren't so big that I can't just quickly fly around eyeballing them and seeing if there are any left on the land with an expired box which I will know quickly is or is not in a grace period because it sends me IMs in world AND emails and is instantly searchable. 

Other people would prefer to have all this harsh and automatic and be brutal to their fellow human beings seeking shelter; I don't.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Prokofy Neva

[Nalytha]

Yeah, as a renter, I want to deal with the owner or staff as little as humanly possible. More rights for me and more automation means I have to take up someone else’s time needlessly and I can also save myself some time. As for the OP, I’ve rented on estates and owned mainland. I have no experience with renting in a situation like you described. So, yeah, I’d be confused and disappointed to find a feature I’m used to isn’t possible on your property. But that speaks more to my own inexperience with dealing with rentals like yours.

I rent from an estate that has been around for ten years. Their terminals are efficient and I love that I can easily pay with PayPal. It’s a little pricier I’m sure, but the features are worth it to me.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Nalytha