Harvey projected to make land fall tonight

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

All of natures things are beautiful, but hate to be in a position where I can't keep my distance if I have to..

I understand that some are limited in how they have to deal with them..But I'll never understand those that think they are bigger than nature itself.

You here in the forums don't get to see me rant over the stupid behavior I see around me every day. I save that for the wild animals in my back yard, at whom I hurl the most ear burning epithets, disguised as a soothing coo to keep them from running off until I've completely emptied my curse glands. I do this to keep my frustration from affecting my logic.

So, while I understand the anger expressed here over behavior that seems stupid and arrogant, I recognize that there are people who make poor decisions for any number of other reasons.  If I'm ever able to tell the ignorant and arrogant apart from the unfortunate (and they're the same in many cases), I'll start yelling at people. Until then I'll keep yelling at the wildlife, who are ignorant enough to think that being called a "f-cking idiot" in a soothing voice by a woman holding an apple and some walnuts... is a good thing.

ETA: Speaking of those that think they are bigger than nature itself, some climate change deniers make the conflicting claims that we're stewards of the Earth, yet are incapable of affecting it. Some kinds of arrogant ignorance are more amusing than others.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Madelaine McMasters

[Pamela Galli]

 I am touched by the people in their private boats out rescuing neighbors .

[Madelaine McMasters]

6 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

 I am touched by the people in their private boats out rescuing neighbors .

Me too.

They're the flip side of the arrogant ignorance coin and are sometimes the same people we shake our heads over.

[Tari Landar]

6 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Lets not forget that sometimes people just don't have the money to pick up and leave..A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck and day by day..

It's hard to pick up and leave when you can't put gas in the car..The harsh reality is they don't stop charging for things when it's time to get up and go..

Some people let their ego get in the way and think they are bigger than a storm,or get their value of things mixed up until it's bearing down on them..

Some just can't afford the luxury of those options and are stuck knowing they have no choice but to plan for the worst and hope for the best..

The real reality is,it's not always someone just being ignorant,but wishing they could afford to be,because they would have left already.

It costs nothing to go to a shelter...nothing at all, damage is going to happen either way, remaining home isn't going to somehow lessen that. People were being moved, for free, to shelters and evacuation areas, even a day before Harvey made landfall, right up and through him as he tore into town, and even after before the worst of the flooding hits-as well as while the flooding is increasing as I type. We're not talking about packing up one's entire home, buying/renting a new one, and moving it all there, we're talking about saving your own life, and the lives of your loved ones and putting them above any amount of STUFF. That cannot be used as an excuse in all things, especially in these instances, and I really, really, really wish people would stop using it as an excuse for, or a way to explain away something like this. We have family in areas hit hard doing precisely that-they suffered complete and total loss of stuff, as well as injuries, and they are STILL saying "we couldn't just pack up and leave". Yes....yes you could have, you had that option, and it would have cost you nothing. Staying there didn't stop you from losing every tangible item you own, it did nearly cost your life though, and now you'll have lifelong injuries and side effects, all because you wanted to make every excuse in the book as to why you couldn't leave. The very reason you claimed you didn't leave because "we couldn't afford to", has now hit you a  million-fold, except now you will have medical bills for the rest of your life on top of catastrophic tangible losses. Of course, we're grateful you're still alive, and we will be more than happy to help you in any way we can...for the very same reason that we're mad...because we love you. I know what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck. I know what it's like to live in a car with your family, for months on end, because you're truly that poor. I also know what it's like to lose a home to flooding. I would continue to opt for those things, rather than place my children in harm's way, potentially leading them to their deaths, on purpose, and try to beat out mother nature at her own game. 

There is nothing that is worth the risks people took, and are still taking. There are people who have the, I won't say unlucky, but it's pretty damn close, pleasure of *having to hang back, so that they can take part in rescue and recovery. Those people are risking their lives, just to help others out, because those others were too ignorant to listen to the warnings. There are people in areas that were originally not going to be in the danger zone, that stayed back, who are now going in and helping people, because they're relatively close. This is far, far from over. I'm not going to stop being mad at people for *choosing* to put the lives of their families on the line, and will make every excuse in the book as to why.  They are people that I love, people that I care about, people I grew up with, people that I know..damn well know better. Nothing is worth it...nothing.

No stuff is worth the potential lost lives, especially when it comes to your children. It is beyond ignorant and arrogant to try and make excuses for why you cannot leave when told it is either leave, or run the risk of dying, and if you CHOOSE to stay(yes, it 100% was a choice for the vast majority) at the very least make it easier for us to identify you during recovery 

[Ceka Cianci]

18 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

It costs nothing to go to a shelter...nothing at all, damage is going to happen either way, remaining home isn't going to somehow lessen that. People were being moved, for free, to shelters and evacuation areas, even a day before Harvey made landfall, right up and through him as he tore into town, and even after before the worst of the flooding hits-as well as while the flooding is increasing as I type. We're not talking about packing up one's entire home, buying/renting a new one, and moving it all there, we're talking about saving your own life, and the lives of your loved ones and putting them above any amount of STUFF. That cannot be used as an excuse in all things, especially in these instances, and I really, really, really wish people would stop using it as an excuse for, or a way to explain away something like this. We have family in areas hit hard doing precisely that-they suffered complete and total loss of stuff, as well as injuries, and they are STILL saying "we couldn't just pack up and leave". Yes....yes you could have, you had that option, and it would have cost you nothing. Staying there didn't stop you from losing every tangible item you own, it did nearly cost your life though, and now you'll have lifelong injuries and side effects, all because you wanted to make every excuse in the book as to why you couldn't leave. The very reason you claimed you didn't leave because "we couldn't afford to", has now hit you a  million-fold, except now you will have medical bills for the rest of your life on top of catastrophic tangible losses. Of course, we're grateful you're still alive, and we will be more than happy to help you in any way we can...for the very same reason that we're mad...because we love you. I know what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck. I know what it's like to live in a car with your family, for months on end, because you're truly that poor. I also know what it's like to lose a home to flooding. I would continue to opt for those things, rather than place my children in harm's way, potentially leading them to their deaths, on purpose, and try to beat out mother nature at her own game. 

There is nothing that is worth the risks people took, and are still taking. There are people who have the, I won't say unlucky, but it's pretty damn close, pleasure of *having to hang back, so that they can take part in rescue and recovery. Those people are risking their lives, just to help others out, because those others were too ignorant to listen to the warnings. There are people in areas that were originally not going to be in the danger zone, that stayed back, who are now going in and helping people, because they're relatively close. This is far, far from over. I'm not going to stop being mad at people for *choosing* to put the lives of their families on the line, and will make every excuse in the book as to why.  They are people that I love, people that I care about, people I grew up with, people that I know..damn well know better. Nothing is worth it...nothing.

No stuff is worth the potential lost lives, especially when it comes to your children. It is beyond ignorant and arrogant to try and make excuses for why you cannot leave when told it is either leave, or run the risk of dying, and if you CHOOSE to stay(yes, it 100% was a choice for the vast majority) at the very least make it easier for us to identify you during recovery 

I don't happen to be ignorant on the subject and was not arguing with you..Not everyone happens to live in a town or city..

[Tari Landar]

26 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I don't happen to be ignorant on the subject and was not arguing with you..Not everyone happens to live in a town or city..

I have no idea what that even means, at all, because it makes no sense, well, the not living in a town or city part anyway. I didn't call you ignorant, I said it's beyond ignorant to make excuses...and that act, very much is, regardless of who is doing it, or why. 

You said people weren't leaving because they couldn't afford to leave, you used that as a reason, an excuse. There was no cost to leave to a great deal of people, there was, and remains, a high cost of staying though, including putting others' lives at risk. 

[Madelaine McMasters]

10 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I have no idea what that even means, at all, because it makes no sense, well, the not living in a town or city part anyway. I didn't call you ignorant, I said it's beyond ignorant to make excuses...and that act, very much is, regardless of who is doing it, or why. 

You said people weren't leaving because they couldn't afford to leave, you used that as a reason, an excuse. There was no cost to leave to a great deal of people, there was, and remains, a high cost of staying though, including putting others' lives at risk. 

Here's a story that reveals the complexity of the situation...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/27/us/houston-evacuation-hurricane-harvey/index.html

Edited August 27, 2017 by Madelaine McMasters

[Pamela Galli]

Tari is talking about shelters , not evacuation. Everyone knows what happens when Houstonians try to evacuate:

 

Hurricane Rita sent millions scurrying in fright and caused a monumental traffic jam so big that cars ran out of gas or overheated. Ultimately, the evacuation proved deadlier than the storm itself. A total of 110 people died during the exodus, including 23 nursing home patients whose bus burst into flames while stuck in traffic.

 

This is why this time there was no evacuation order.

Of course only the first to show up at shelters would find a place for themselves. 6 million people are hard to accommodate. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Pamela Galli

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I have no idea what that even means, at all, because it makes no sense, well, the not living in a town or city part anyway. I didn't call you ignorant, I said it's beyond ignorant to make excuses...and that act, very much is, regardless of who is doing it, or why. 

You said people weren't leaving because they couldn't afford to leave, you used that as a reason, an excuse. There was no cost to leave to a great deal of people, there was, and remains, a high cost of staying though, including putting others' lives at risk. 

Leaving for me means getting out of the storm path..Not being there at all and Evacuating..A lot can't afford to do that..I was talking about why a lot of people end up staying..Kind of funny how when they ask people why they didn't evacuate,a lot say they didn't have the money..I've already heard that tale a few times today with people they've interviewed..

I'm not making excuses for anyone ,but just going by what I've learned from past experience... Also,Where in there did I mention one way or the other about going to or not going to a shelter?

I was talking about getting out of the way..

Speaking of shelters,Ever been in a high school gym when a cat5 hurricane is hitting it?My uncle has and he ended up getting the hell out of there because he thought the roof was about to give in..which, part of it did end up giving way.so those people ended up riding the rest of it out with part of the roof missing..

My stupid uncle ended up driving back to his house, not being able to see a thing or know if a two by four was gonna come flying through his window,where he found my really stupid other uncle sleeping in his bed..He actually had to wake him up to tell him he was in a hurricane..hehehehe

They road the rest of it out in the cellar at the house..

The town part was,a lot of people outside of the towns that are in the path don't get the luxury of running over to the local shelter or getting picked up and taken there for free..Same with a lot of real small towns in general that don't have those big buildings that hold up..This is only in the states that I know of and have dealt with afterwards,because I don't want to go saying something about the ones I haven't..

Plus a lot of people do have their own shelters..But if you have a big storm surge coming in it's not good to be in a cellar if you are real close to the beach.

Anyways,I was mainly talking about them evacuating when I said they couldn't afford it..Not staying away from the shelters..

 

 

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

Let's all keep some scorn in reserve for the agencies that will soon issue permits for reconstruction, using building codes that didn't anticipate this disaster in the first place, and won't be revisited in light of climate model predictions because that science is a Chinese hoax.

Ignorance, it's everywhere! (Including in the head of the person typing this).

[Tari Landar]

3 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Leaving for me means getting out of the storm path..Not being there at all and Evacuating..A lot can't afford to do that..I was talking about why a lot of people end up staying..Kind of funny how when they ask people why they didn't evacuate,a lot say they didn't have the money..I've already heard that tale a few times today with people they've interviewed..

I'm not making excuses for anyone ,but just going by what I've learned from past experience... Also,Where in there did I mention one way or the other about going to or not going to a shelter?

The town part was,a lot of people outside of the towns that are in the path don't get the luxury of running over to the local shelter or getting picked up and taken there for free..Same with a lot of real small towns in general that don't have those big buildings that hold up..This is only in the states that I know of and have dealt with afterwards,because I don't want to go saying something about the ones I haven't..

Ok, that makes a bit more sense.   Yes, a lot of people will say they couldn't afford to leave, but I still suggest that it's an excuse born out of ignorance. I actually wasn't just speaking of shelters, I was speaking of both evacuating and shelters...generally speaking, getting the hell out of the way, and getting somewhere safe. A lot of people were taken to various different shelters, far out of Harvey's path, and the path of the flooding which we're now seeing(and will be around for a few days) by many different organizations that were helping. Honestly, they were evacuating people left and right, with and without an order of evacuation in place(some places did issue a mandatory evacuation btw, just not all areas), which started days before Harvey even got there. Most of the areas aren't rural in that area, but those that are, people were getting moved out of there too, and people were leaving. It really was a lot more well organized than I've certainly seen or experienced. I was honestly surprised they were advised to leave as early as they were, or that evacuating people to shelters (not located in his path mind you, that's a whole different topic that has never made sense to me) had begun as early as Wednesday and Thursday in some areas. That's definitely not typical, I guess we learn from our past mistakes sometimes. A mass exodus would indeed cause chaos, we seem to know better now, so I suppose that's why they began warning people days in advance. Traffic was still hell to get out, well according to those that were stuck in it on their way here anyway, because a lot waited until the last minute. But, also according to them, it wasn't as bad as it has been before, so I'll take their word for it on that. 

As for my friends and family..the "we couldn't afford to drive anywhere/get to safety" excuse will never sit right, not when it really was an option, because it would have cost them far less to get somewhere safe than it's caused them staying put. Maybe it would help to offer a bit of their 4 yr old's perspective "why didn't daddy and mommy come too, we have room? Its so scary".  So, yeah, try figuring out a way to explain to a 3 and 4 yr old why mommy and daddy didn't leave too, when there was plenty of time, plenty of room, ad plenty of safety to get to. It's rough, but even more rough when their only real excuse was "we can't afford to go" or "we didn't want to". They may or may not ever get to see them again. 

[R Dismantled]

12 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Tari is talking about shelters , not evacuation. Everyone knows what happens when Houstonians try to evacuate:

 

Hurricane Rita sent millions scurrying in fright and caused a monumental traffic jam so big that cars ran out of gas or overheated. Ultimately, the evacuation proved deadlier than the storm itself. A total of 110 people died during the exodus, including 23 nursing home patients whose bus burst into flames while stuck in traffic.

 

This is why this time there was no evacuation order.

Of course only the first to show up at shelters would find a place for themselves. 6 million people are hard to accommodate. 

Yes. Exactly. Rita evac as a major c-f-. People don't forget that mess.

I live in an area of Houston that is relatively high ground, so the streets and garages turn into lakes but the buildings tend to remain above the water level.

I could drink a six pack and take a leak in the parking lot, and 3 cars would have to get towed... that's how it is, but it acts as a retention pond.

One new neighbor was losing their s-, looking at their drowned car. Yep. There's a reason why the Gecko and Mayhem double-end this neighborhood for car insurance.

So, I stock up on water early in large jugs, get bread and peanut butter, drink my tea and the occasional shot of Jack, and stay put.

Oh, and not worry about the unimportant crap, like this ticket to Wednesday's game vs the Rangers that will likely be ppd or played in Dallas.

I have the work laptop for a reason, there is nothing out there for me to do (I did my walk to Specs for more Jack before the storms hit.)

Posted a few photos on Flickr, but the real mess is elsewhere.

For me, the real flood is the storm of "Are you okay? Did you park on high ground? How are you and the cats? Is the rain getting worse there?" messages.

Yes, I understand that each individual cares. But the volume of them is at the "I drowned and died" stage

Some folks have been a bit butthurt about that. Welcome to me. It's just how I'm miswired. In case of fire, use gasoline.

And it was an opportunity to twist the old punchline "Two boats just passed by. Waiting on the helicopter." with my parents, where they haven't had rain for over 80 days.

So, thanks, and I'm going to hug this very meowy cat so she'll purr herself to sleep and I can get some more myself.

[Pamela Galli]

Jut heard ignorant TV commentators tsk--tsking that the  flooding is due to poor urban planning. Like anyone could've planned for 50 inches of water within a few days. 

Other more ignorant ones criitiiicizing the lack of evacuation.

The important thing is the low death rate,  and staying in place has done that so far. Running  out of gas in a huge traffic jam would not have been preferable.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Pamela Galli

[R Dismantled]

41 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Jut heard ignorant TV commentators tsk--tsking that the  flooding is due to poor urban planning. Like anyone could've planned for 50 inches of water within a few days. 

Other more ignorant ones criitiiicizing the lack of evacuation.

The important thing is the low death rate,  and staying in place has done that so far. Running  out of gas in a huge traffic jam would not have been preferable.

And this is why I'm reading Space City Weather, watching the weather radar, following the emergency management alerts, and filtering the flood control district feed instead of watching the ever-increasing buffoonery and opinion-pieces out there.

Unless they're wearing white cotton tops, there's no sense to look at the babbling bimbettes getting rained on.

Right now, SCW and the radar suggest lighter intermittent rain in my area for a while.

I'll ping work and confirm I'm online, then go snap some photos while the tea steeps.

[Rhonda Huntress]

4 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Jut heard ignorant TV commentators tsk--tsking that the  flooding is due to poor urban planning. Like anyone could've planned for 50 inches of water within a few days. 

To be fair, Houston is a swamp.  Flooding is its normal state.

[Pamela Galli]

1 hour ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

To be fair, Houston is a swamp.  Flooding is its normal state.

They might step up their current efforts to reduce flooding, I don't know -- but there is no precedent for handlingj four feet of rain.

[R Dismantled]

After disasters or terrorist attacks, there's usually a slew of "Pray for X" or "We are all X" things.

Did a few searches in Marketplace and the blogs and Flickr, only found this so far:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Gift-Seaweed-Sonnet-Yellow-Rose-Rug/12596250

"This rug is meant to show friensdhip and well wishes to those in Texas going through the flooding and devastation of Hurricane Harvery."

The sentiment is greatly appreciated.

[Venus Petrov]

On 8/28/2017 at 7:48 AM, Pamela Galli said:

Jut heard ignorant TV commentators tsk--tsking that the  flooding is due to poor urban planning. Like anyone could've planned for 50 inches of water within a few days. 

Other more ignorant ones criitiiicizing the lack of evacuation.

The important thing is the low death rate,  and staying in place has done that so far. Running  out of gas in a huge traffic jam would not have been preferable.

I do hope the death/injury rate is low once the water drains.  I'm heartened by the images of strangers helping strangers (and their pets!).

I hope that local/state authorities perform a post mortem that includes the way the Houston area has grown so rapidly the past few decades with few/lax regs on building and paving over grasslands.  They may never see another storm like this in their lifetimes but someone will especially since global warming is increasing the severity of all sorts of natural calamities.

[Ceka Cianci]

I seen this last night  before I went to bed..I just copied from the short article and pasted here.. There is a longer version on yahoo if anyone is interested in reading it..

https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-worked-until-couldn-apos-130810564.html

Photo goes viral of Texas deputy exhausted during Harvey

This photo was sent to me by friend at the Harris County Sheriff's Office. This deputy worked 12+ hours thru the night, doing high water rescues. Worked until he couldn't stand anymore. This man and hundreds more just like him are out there, saving Texans!! Much respect sir!
~Ghost

Edited August 30, 2017 by Ceka Cianci

[Wyntersprite]

OK for those naysayers screaming about people refusing to leave their homes and how stupid they are.... For starters we remember the "Evacuation from hell". I was 8 and a half months pregnant going from Houston to Dallas, a trip mind you that would have taken about 4 hours. Took us nearly 26 hours. I could get out and walk faster than the cars were going. I watched as an explosion killed many senior citizens who were forced to leave because of a hurricane that let me remind you, never even hit us! I was watching as people had to leave their dead pets out on the sides of the roads because of the heat, you could not turn the AC on high enough to combat the Texas heat plus the amount of heat built up on the roads from all the sitting cars. Even after the counterflow lanes had been opened. Grocery stores, restaurants (fast food and others), gas stations all closed and boarded up because they had ether sold out or fear from what happened with New Orleans would happen again, because that is what they were saying on the news. That is just a fraction of what we went through in the "Evacuation from Hell".

 

Now we sit and watch a Cat 4 Hurricane hit a small town of Rockport Texas and all our breaths are held and hearts stop. We pray that it won't be that bad, but many had time to get out. However those that stayed behind had stayed because yes some had no money to leave, some had lived in those homes since they were young. Others could not leave their pets behind because many shelters do not allow animals. Others still look around at the many things that in their minds, are not replaceable and decide that maybe they can ride out the storm.  It is also so much easier to evacuate a town as small as Rockport or Corpus Christi. But Houston which is a city of 2.303 MILLION people, there is no way. There would be more dead on the roads then had died in the floods. But what you must realize about Texans is that when there is something horrific like this, we band together, we are strong. 

 

If you notice as soon as things got really bad in Houston, the people with boats and high profile trucks came out and risked their own lives to help those who did not have time to leave their homes. Remember no one could have seen this coming, many reporters are calling this the Thousand Year Flood because it was so biblical. You only see what the reporters want you to see. I was here, I lived it. I hear the choppers flying overhead for the past three days as they try and get as many people to safety. No one knew that we would flood this bad. Places that do not flood flooded. It got so bad that they had to manually release waters from different levees and drain into an already flooded Bayou. So yes many stayed behind because we had the thinking "Our neighborhood is safe." Yes we were wrong for thinking that, but when we realized that we would be getting 50+ inches of water, how are you going to get out? Shelters can only take in so many people before being turned away. People do not want to leave their pets and I am one of those. If you do not take me and my dog and m bird then I am staying and riding it out. That is what we did with Ike and that had us out of power for 14 days and clean up from hell. 

 

So before you start judging and casting those stones, think about what we had to go through in the past. Think about the millions of people that are suppose to be evacuated and tell me this. Where are we supposed to go when we can't even get out of our streets.

[Tari Landar]

I cant even begin to express how much empathy and sorrow I feel for those that were stuck, those that were cut off by the flash flooding that happened so rapidly and harshly, they had no choices. I can imagine precisely how it feels, because I have been in that situation before, we lost a home some years ago to the same kind of flooding, had to swim to get to rescue boats, and lost everything in the process, including a couple of pets that could not be saved. My heart truly aches for everyone down there, even those that I am angry with, despite what some might think. My heart aches just as much for those out there bringing aid, and trying to rescue people that were literally cut off from the rest of the world due to the flooding, those that cannot get out, and those trying to get some people out but struggling. Many have perished, including those trying to rescue and save others, and that is a pain that will never go away.. I can both grieve for(and with) them, while still being angry that some took the chances they did when they chose to stay back. Its too mind boggling to continue thinking about.

No matter how much anger I feel, I can't change the choices people made. I can't bring back the kids' parents. I can't change what happened. I can, however, hope that people will open their eyes, make better choices when push comes to shove, perhaps rethink how they prioritize people(and things) in their lives, I can hope that more people will be brought to safety and will be able to rebuild when this is all over and done with, and reunite with loved ones. I can console these kids and know that they will be in a better place in life, regardless of how hard it's going to be, or how long it's going to take, to get them there. I can be grateful they are young enough that the impact this has on them may not be as everlasting and what they are feeling and expressing now will ease their little overburdened hearts and minds. Mostly..I can hope that people begin to LEARN from these things, and take heed to warnings, understanding the potential repercussions. When things like this happen, like the flash flooding, which we cannot control...we ought to take better control of the things we CAN...we have no excuse not to, 

Please don't try and justify staying behind because "stuff" is valuable, or because pets are "more valuable" than human life, to me, unless you're going to come here and help me deal with the aftermath of these "choices". Not when I have to look into these little eyes, the little eyes that when they got here were still happy go lucky little kids, and now it's difficult to get them to stop crying, difficult to get them to go to sleep, and difficult to just sit there and hold them when they can't handle it anymore. They don't quite "get" death, let alone "mommy and daddy left us".. Before this all happened, I would have told you those two were amazing parents...because they were. When push came to shove, however, the only one using his brain was the kids' father, and if he had been given more time to think about it..may very well not have made that choice. He had every intention of keeping them there with him and his wife..and they too would have perished, along with their pets.

Now, I am going to go back to helping pack this truck so it can leave in a few hours to head out with the rest of the convoy.  My anger doesn't cloud my judgment, nor will I allow it to cloud my ability to feel empathy, sympathy...and help out others when they desperately need it. It will, however, cloud my ability to talk about this any more, because some people will never "get it" the way I seem to think they should, but I feel compelled to try anyway(though I don't know why), and I've got to learn to accept that it's perfectly okay for others to not "get it".  Especially since it's taken me an hour and a half just to type this...You may think I am cruel, heartless, or simply "casting stones" for being angry, but I assure you that thinking is so far off the mark it's not even in the same universe. I am angry for so many reasons...but mostly...because I have two tiny little beings cuddled up on my bed, who greatly depend upon the choices others make....and they are not alone.  Though I do appreciate the discussion, it helps to read others' perspectives, whether or not we see eye to eye..I am struggling with this topic far more than I probably should be. Perhaps it's simply too raw for me, so best I bow out.  

[Pamela Galli]

I am so sorry for your loss Tari.

[Madelaine McMasters]

6 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I cant even begin to express how much empathy and sorrow I feel for those that were stuck, those that were cut off by the flash flooding that happened so rapidly and harshly, they had no choices. I can imagine precisely how it feels, because I have been in that situation before, we lost a home some years ago to the same kind of flooding, had to swim to get to rescue boats, and lost everything in the process, including a couple of pets that could not be saved. My heart truly aches for everyone down there, even those that I am angry with, despite what some might think. My heart aches just as much for those out there bringing aid, and trying to rescue people that were literally cut off from the rest of the world due to the flooding, those that cannot get out, and those trying to get some people out but struggling. Many have perished, including those trying to rescue and save others, and that is a pain that will never go away.. I can both grieve for(and with) them, while still being angry that some took the chances they did when they chose to stay back. Its too mind boggling to continue thinking about.

No matter how much anger I feel, I can't change the choices people made. I can't bring back the kids' parents. I can't change what happened. I can, however, hope that people will open their eyes, make better choices when push comes to shove, perhaps rethink how they prioritize people(and things) in their lives, I can hope that more people will be brought to safety and will be able to rebuild when this is all over and done with, and reunite with loved ones. I can console these kids and know that they will be in a better place in life, regardless of how hard it's going to be, or how long it's going to take, to get them there. I can be grateful they are young enough that the impact this has on them may not be as everlasting and what they are feeling and expressing now will ease their little overburdened hearts and minds. Mostly..I can hope that people begin to LEARN from these things, and take heed to warnings, understanding the potential repercussions. When things like this happen, like the flash flooding, which we cannot control...we ought to take better control of the things we CAN...we have no excuse not to, 

Please don't try and justify staying behind because "stuff" is valuable, or because pets are "more valuable" than human life, to me, unless you're going to come here and help me deal with the aftermath of these "choices". Not when I have to look into these little eyes, the little eyes that when they got here were still happy go lucky little kids, and now it's difficult to get them to stop crying, difficult to get them to go to sleep, and difficult to just sit there and hold them when they can't handle it anymore. They don't quite "get" death, let alone "mommy and daddy left us".. Before this all happened, I would have told you those two were amazing parents...because they were. When push came to shove, however, the only one using his brain was the kids' father, and if he had been given more time to think about it..may very well not have made that choice. He had every intention of keeping them there with him and his wife..and they too would have perished, along with their pets.

Now, I am going to go back to helping pack this truck so it can leave in a few hours to head out with the rest of the convoy.  My anger doesn't cloud my judgment, nor will I allow it to cloud my ability to feel empathy, sympathy...and help out others when they desperately need it. It will, however, cloud my ability to talk about this any more, because some people will never "get it" the way I seem to think they should, but I feel compelled to try anyway(though I don't know why), and I've got to learn to accept that it's perfectly okay for others to not "get it".  Especially since it's taken me an hour and a half just to type this...You may think I am cruel, heartless, or simply "casting stones" for being angry, but I assure you that thinking is so far off the mark it's not even in the same universe. I am angry for so many reasons...but mostly...because I have two tiny little beings cuddled up on my bed, who greatly depend upon the choices others make....and they are not alone.  Though I do appreciate the discussion, it helps to read others' perspectives, whether or not we see eye to eye..I am struggling with this topic far more than I probably should be. Perhaps it's simply too raw for me, so best I bow out.  

I too am saddened by your loss, Tari.

I don't think you should bow out of the discussion, unless it's for your own good (taking 90 minutes to write a post would kill me). While the ignorance that angers you is simply too prevalent (and increasing here in the US if not elsewhere) for me to share with your intensity, if it's motivating you, go for it. I absolutely don't think you're cruel, heartless, or casting stones. Nor do I think it's perfectly okay for you to accept that others don't get it the way you think they should. It's only a little okay. People won't ever get it if their ignorance isn't educated away. Your voice educates, so use it. (Even if you were dead wrong, I'd want you to speak up, to increase your chances of being shown wrong. ;-).

But again, ignorance is everywhere. The cowboy ethos I mentioned earlier is, I think, largely responsible for the willfully ignorant urban planning of the Houston area. We actually CAN, to a limited extent, control or avoid flash flooding. We didn't. So direct some scorn at people who knew better and said nothing, eventually drowning the rest in a slow rise of false sense of security. Of course it's not as simple as that. Urban planning is as complex as the individual life situations of those who made wrong choices during Harvey. Take on the challenge of reducing ignorance and the damage it creates, in your own way.

Because, unless I'm misreading the trends, this rising wave of ignorance threatens us all.

[Wyntersprite]

5 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I too am saddened by your loss, Tari.

I don't think you should bow out of the discussion, unless it's for your own good (taking 90 minutes to write a post would kill me). While the ignorance that angers you is simply too prevalent (and increasing here in the US if not elsewhere) for me to share with your intensity, if it's motivating you, go for it. I absolutely don't think you're cruel, heartless, or casting stones. Nor do I think it's perfectly okay for you to accept that others don't get it the way you think they should. It's only a little okay. People won't ever get it if their ignorance isn't educated away. Your voice educates, so use it. (Even if you were dead wrong, I'd want you to speak up, to increase your chances of being shown wrong. ;-).

But again, ignorance is everywhere. The cowboy ethos I mentioned earlier is, I think, largely responsible for the willfully ignorant urban planning of the Houston area. We actually CAN, to a limited extent, control or avoid flash flooding. We didn't. So direct some scorn at people who knew better and said nothing, eventually drowning the rest in a slow rise of false sense of security. Of course it's not as simple as that. Urban planning is as complex as the individual life situations of those who made wrong choices during Harvey. Take on the challenge of reducing ignorance and the damage it creates, in your own way.

Because, unless I'm misreading the trends, this rising wave of ignorance threatens us all.

No matter how great a drainage system is, it all has to empty out somewhere and when there is 50+ inches of rain water falling down on one place, there is nothing that can be done but watch it rise up. They did manually lower some levees but again, where does that empty out too? No we are not "ignorant" but I am also bowing out of this as well because the more I read about how stupid we are for staying the angrier I get because unless you lived through what we have you have NO right to calls us stupid or in your terms ignorant!

Enjoy your glass houses. 

[Madelaine McMasters]

46 minutes ago, Wyntersprite said:

No matter how great a drainage system is, it all has to empty out somewhere and when there is 50+ inches of rain water falling down on one place, there is nothing that can be done but watch it rise up. They did manually lower some levees but again, where does that empty out too? No we are not "ignorant" but I am also bowing out of this as well because the more I read about how stupid we are for staying the angrier I get because unless you lived through what we have you have NO right to calls us stupid or in your terms ignorant!

Enjoy your glass houses. 

Of course nobody planned for 50 inches of rain, though that's now on the table. But you could dissuade people from building within the confines of reservoir areas, or require construction that affordably survives flooding. A great deal of money is being spent to rebuild New Orleans in a way that's still vulnerable. Along my own Lake Michigan shoreline, the DNR is approving bluff protection projects that are creating collateral damage up and down the coast, while building codes still allow construction of houses so close to the lake that historical average erosion rates predict they'll be destroyed in a century.

As I said, ignorance is everywhere. And that's why I don't get angry at Harvey's victims. There will be individual stories of willful ignorance at every level, but the vast majority of people really were trying to do their best with the information they had.