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Phil Deakins

SL isn't the same any more

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6 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Ok. I really thought those two pictures could speak for themselves but since you ask so nicely:

  1. Both trees are fairly detailed mesh trees. They are not elaborate feature items but nor are "planar trees" as you call them. More to the point: their designs are of about the same complexity.
  2. The trees represent the overall quality of their respective makers very well.
  3. I do not know how long the two makers have been in SL but they are both old enough to have legacy names and they both started their businesses long before I entered Second Life.
  4. The maker of the first tree is one of the most prestigious names in SL landscaping. He has won several awards and you see his builds everywhere.
  5. The maker of the second tree has a small and faithful group of fans but she has never managed to catch the eye of the majority of SL users and I have yet to see any of her trees anywhere in SL except for at her store. I happen to know that she doesn't make enough sales to cover the tier for the homestead sim she rents for her store.
  6. This example is not unique. It is fairly typical of what you see in SL.

Please let me know if you have any further questions on the matter.

if the second tree is from a person whose firstname is Nadine, you are wrong. She's famous. Shes a kind of exception to what i just said in my previous post (but i could name a few like that.. not that much tho)

For me she does the BEST trees in SL.

i have them all over my sim and i can tell you i see her trees all around SL . Because again... they are the best from far. 

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12 minutes ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

if the second tree is from a person whose firstname is Nadine

It isn't. I was actually going to use a Nadine Reverie tree as an example of a good one but decided not to. Her trees are so expensive the price difference would have made it an unfair comparasion. Besides, as you say, she may not sell much but she is indeed famous and her prices are high enough she may well make a decent income from SL anyway.

That reminds me of an important point I forgot: the trees in my pistures are in about the same price range.

Edited by ChinRey
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2 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

It isn't. I was actually going to use a Nadine Reverie tree as an example of a good one but decided not to. Her trees are so expensive the price difference would have made it an unfair comparasion.

That reminds me of an important point I forgot: the trees in my pistures are in about the same price range.

expensive ?

i dont find them particularly expensive. Of course, if you want the copy version, it can be a bit pricey but still not that much if you compare with the market. And you may buy the no copy versions , so you get exactly what u need and you can mix and match the trees and its not expensive, imho. 

And also the land impact is good. 

But who is the one you said then ? i am always in search of good items for my sim lol...

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30 minutes ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

i dont find them particularly expensive. Of course, if you want the copy version, it can be a bit pricey but still not that much if you compare with the market.

Oh yes, I agree her trees are well worth the money but it still wouldn't be fair to compare them to a much cheaper work by somebody else

 

30 minutes ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

But who is the one you said then ? i am always in search of good items for my sim lol...

I may have posted something she once told me in private and that means I can't really give her name. Sorry.

Edited by ChinRey
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Trinity, I agree on quite a few of those points. Brand recognition is huge! Those brands have exposure because they invested in marketing and created an identity. Its the reason why someone can charge an exorbitant price for a product or service. It how a brand stays relevant in a mass of competition. They've created value.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I've never heard of anyone leaving SL because they...couldn't mod their mesh outfit or head.

I never said people were leaving because they couldn't mod their outfit or head, I pointed out that the ability users have to personalize their avatars has been diminished and suggested this is one of multiple issues contributing to SL's troubles in drawing in and retaining new residents.

Another issue is the added complexity. For example, there are currently three different kinds of rigged mesh because LL really didn't want to do rigged mesh right the first two times, so now every new user to SL needs to learn this and the differences between these different kinds of mesh, before they go shopping or they will end up even more aggravated and confused. 

There was that long period where LL started new users with fully mesh avatars which could not be customized in any of the traditional means. These new residents were dropped into SL with an avatar where they couldn't use any of the appearance editor features the tutorial was still telling them to use. They couldn't change their skin or clothes and they had no idea why.

There are other issues, of course.

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

If they had a choice between returning to the early days of SL when they could make a prairie skirt like Home Ec in 1974 on their system avatar template, or have beautiful mesh things, they will take mesh. Being able to edit your prairie skirt doesn't mean anything when it is surpassed hundreds of leagues by mesh.

I'm not saying mesh is bad, just that there are better ways LL could have handled it. I'm definitely not saying that LL should have kept SL stuck with 2005 era prim content.

And with regards to being able to edit, you can edit mesh content so long as it's set modifiable. Sure, you can't move every little piece around individually, but you can retexture, apply custom materials, add/remove scripts, again only if it is set modifiable by the creator. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to enjoy the benefits of mesh and the creative freedom we enjoyed before no-mod became so prevalent. 

Speaking of the benefits of mesh, mesh should have made SL run a lot better for most people. There are things LL did and failed to do which made the opposite happen, pushing SL's hardware requirements higher and higher.

 

To be reiterate, I don't think SL should go back to how it was years ago. Change isn't necessarily bad, but LL could have handled certain things a lot better.

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5 hours ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

if those talented photographers worn it on their pic it cant be that bad ! The demo not fitting me ? naaaa , that's my fault.. i maybe dont see it well... if its good for the flikr photographers i must have it !!

Loved your post and going back to like-clilck it but wanted to comment on this particular part AND I wanted to comment again on the OP (way back there) if I don't forget what I wanted to say while typing to you - LOL.

I have been blogging long before I was creating (I think I tried making texture clothes and was pretty marginal at it) 4,600 plus fashion and design post in the can on my MAIN blog.  I have also blogged for some of the top designers and still do for a nice group of people's work I admire. 

There aren't all that many blogger - creators out there. Some folks blog and some folks create but not many do both daily :D. And it can be a very hard road to travel sometimes as you see both sides of the -- well let's call it commerce.  Now and then designers have dropped me from their lists (no issues that I know of as I try and do a good job featuring everyone) but more often I have left their groups. Sometimes it has been the rules since I don't do well in "blogger corrals" and don't take kindly to being yelled at because of other people's actions (that group thing). 

But not too long ago I left some groups simply because I wasn't willing to advertise things that I didn't really think were great. Not all items shown on my blog are my style, but most are and others are "on the edge" and well made and often pretty damn impressive. I thought that was going to cut down on my blogging, by happily I am still posting most days.  I HAVE blogged less than stellar items from folks that I have been featuring for ages when they have changed methods (like going into mesh clothing) thinking that they would improve with some experience -- and they definitely did. So, I don't have a 100% top quality record either -- I admit that. 

Since I have been blogging for so long and take pretty good pictures I know most of the tricks to make things look good that are not. But I try to show things clearly as well as prettily. I also, as a designer, REALLY HATE those cluttered H and G (house and garden) blog photos with so many things in them and SO DARK AND MISTY that you can't actually see the products being "featured". To that end I rarely give out blogger copies any longer.  So it is a viscous circle and one it would be very good to break, but as Trinity says, there is that sheep mentality along with the laziness. This isn't just SL :D. 

And I still remember my thoughts on the OP so I will write that next. 

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And my thought on the OP after rereading :D. 

I make mesh now. I have for four years or so, but before that I worked like many folks with prims. I still love prims. I actually sometimes work with "mesh prims" when MESH is a criteria. I did that over at SL14B with a very minimalist and low lag installation for the Live Performance Stage. AND I spent a year over in Opensim making prim stuff and enjoyed myself a lot.  

There are certainly things you can make in mesh that you cannot make in prims --- that is just a fact.  BUT in many ways we could still have a quite fabulous SL world by using prims if the land impact wasn't such an issue.   In Opensim where land is free or almost free ($5 per sim in some cases) there is no need to worry about prim count. That land impact cost has a lot to do with the popularity of mesh in SL -- it is not nearly as popular in Opensim even though it is just a pretty (I sell stuff there too).

 

The PRETTY part is the texturing. And that was NEVER an inworld activity. Long ago and far away Marcus Inkpen had the most (or some of the most) glorious buildings on the grid. Why? He hand painted his textures (I believe in a 3D program but HE didn't state that, someone else did). Then he brought them in and put them on the same prims that the newbies were  using inventory library textures on :D.   So while there WAS an even playing field so far as prims, there was NEVER an actual even playing field.

The ability to make textures now WITHIN 3D programs has evened the field somewhat and those of us that don't hand paint can now make some fairly impressive stuff by combining various nodes, tweaking and playing. 

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41 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

BUT in many ways we could still have a quite fabulous SL world by using prims if the land impact wasn't such an issue.

I know this isn't the main point of what you're saying, but I did want to single this out and go into more detail on the land impact issue.

Simply doing away with Land Impact, as Open Sim does, is not a good solution to anything, because prims have varying levels of impact on performance. A prim as rendered by your videocard is a mesh model, for all practical purposes, your videocard does not make any distinction between a mesh chair or a chair made out of prims. The reason you can make a mesh chair for one Land Impact, while a nearly identical looking prim chair is going to cost more, comes down to how many vertices each version of the chair uses. If the mesh chair is well made and down to one Land Impact, it is in all likelihood using far fewer vertices, making it far easier for your videocard to render.

All else being equal, if you make two identical looking environments, one using prims and the other using mesh, the mesh one is going to give you the higher framerates.

 

An alternate approach to this issue would be for LL to investigate next-gen building tools, similar to EverQuest Next, which allows people to build using basic prim shapes, then bake those shapes into a single mesh object (removing hidden vertices/faces) and applying a softening feature to edges to round them out for more organic shapes. This would allow for the simplicity of SL's in-world prim tools, but still let you create content comparable in look and Land Impact to mesh content.

Now, content made in external tools will always have an edge in that you have more direct control, more options, etcetera, but advanced next gen tools could make creating inworld fun and practical again.

And that's an important point. It used to be a lot of fun creating inworld. It made the creative side of SL more social and engaging, particularly for those who aren't already 3D artists. LL's mistake is believing that the creating side of SL was never that important, that it could be offloaded to external tools and relegated to importing, when a big part of SL's early popularity was in that you could log in and create. The quality of the content was only part of the equation, the engagement factor creating that content had was huge, but it's no longer as much a part of the SL experience as it used to be. Not in the way it used to be. Today, Minecraft better captures that aspect of early SL than modern SL does.

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For years, I said the the soul of creating stuff is the texturing of it. I made furniture, of course, so it was solid objects made from prims that I was refering to. I had no idea about clothing - and I still don't. Many people didn't pay enough attention to the texturing, and some people did. That's where a person's aptitude for creating good stuff comes in, or came in with prims. It was the texturing.

I never painted my own textures, but I did create and upload some. For a very long time, my pillows were the best around to look at. (That wasn't just my opinion). They were pure prim with sharp prim edges, and in competition with sculpties. It was attention to detail in texturing that did it. Making it impossible to see whether or not a sharp edge could be seen took attention to detail, and set stuff apart from things where the angles could be seen. My prim furniture was the same. I wouldn't put an item up for sale if sharp edges could be seen - unless a sharp edge is needed, of course.

Skill with texturing was the soul of creating with prims. I thought I'd mention it since you mentioned textures in your post, Chic :)

Edited by Phil Deakins
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2 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

An alternate approach to this issue would be for LL to investigate next-gen building tools, similar to EverQuest Next, which allows people to build using basic prim shapes, then bake those shapes into a single mesh object (removing hidden vertices/faces) and applying a softening feature to edges to round them out for more organic shapes.

The voxel building tools in Landmark were actually very impressive, and if LL were to implement a similar in world building system where people could create things using basic voxel building tools and then have a mesh object automatically generated based on a similar process to the "wrap" method they use to calculate physics models in the mesh uploader (you could even use the same mesh upload window for generating the LOD models), that alone would be an amazing addition to in-world creativity.  Of course you'd have the issues of UV mapping, but even if it were limited to planar mapping only it would allow users to create all sorts of organic shapes and objects for landscaping and scenery, etc that you simply can't do efficiently with prims.

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7 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

For years, I said the the soul of creating stuff is the texturing of it. I made furniture, of course, so it was solid objects made from prims that I was refering to. I had no idea about clothing - and I still don't. Many people didn't pay enough attention to the texturing, and some people did. That's where a person's aptitude for creating good stuff comes in, or came in with prims. It was the texturing.

I never painted my own textures, but I did create and upload some. For a very long time, my pillows were the best around to look at. (That wasn't just my opinion). They were pure prim with sharp prim edges, and in competition with sculpties. It was attention to detail in texturing that did it. Making it impossible to see whether or not a sharp edge could be seen took attention to detail, and set stuff apart from things where the angles could be seen. My prim furniture was the same. I wouldn't put an item up for sale if sharp edges could be seen - unless a sharp edge is needed, of course.

Skill with texturing was the soul of creating with prims. I thought I'd mention it since you mentioned textures in your post, Chic :)

And how things have been so unfair for texturers !! how unfair ! yes...

you can see "original mesh" on vendors with pride... you rarely see "original texture"... 

When mesh became a thing, if you were not able to do original mesh (or to cheat, like 80 % do), you were nothing. ... leave the mesh work to the ones skilled for that and use your skills doing beautiful textures fpr templates you buy legally and in compliance with the SL tos ? naaaa ... you are bad ! you are nothing ! you are zero and not worthy to go in the good events where the customers are... you still can go to the ones that are empty... that's for you...

So at some points, we had a few choice : 

     --- learn blender, maya or any other 3d software u ll make mesh with .... monthes, years of pain, tears, discouragement... and well finally one day, you start to see the end of the tunnel and get pride and fun with it. but OMG that pain ! (i think it show... how much i did hate being forced to learn blender, and on the other hand. how much im super happy now... but yeah.. oh the pain !)

   --- cheat and lie.. using mesh you dont do yourself but still proudly saying you do

   --- and the third alternative has been when appliers became possible and so giving a new opportunity for ppl skilled for texture to make tattoo, lingeries and all sort of appliers.

  ---  and ultimately stick with templates and keep doing what you are talented for (texture) and be ignored half of the time 

 

but yet... you will barely see 100 % original texture proudly print on vendors... 

I know a lot of brands with great mesh and horrible textures... but for this too.... who cares ? Really, come on !! its all original mesh !!! wooot !! (we are not even sure its really original but let's pretend we believe it)  , who cares the texture really ? texture is for the weak... and texturer are nothing... talent ? them ? naaaa... mesh is the talent... 

 

well, humans remains humans... 

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39 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

And that's an important point. It used to be a lot of fun creating inworld. It made the creative side of SL more social and engaging, particularly for those who aren't already 3D artists. LL's mistake is believing that the creating side of SL was never that important, that it could be offloaded to external tools and relegated to importing, when a big part of SL's early popularity was in that you could log in and create. The quality of the content was only part of the equation, the engagement factor creating that content had was huge, but it's no longer as much a part of the SL experience as it used to be. Not in the way it used to be. Today, Minecraft better captures that aspect of early SL than modern SL does.

To me, this is really the crux of Phil's thread topic

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1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

Simply doing away with Land Impact, as Open Sim does, is not a good solution to anything, because prims have varying levels of impact on performance

Yes, I understand that completely and that really wasn't my point. My comment was directed at the OP and then at the following comments about why mesh is so popular. I do understand that a tortured prim is just as bad as many sculpts or as some very dense or badly made mesh. 

What I was referring to is the POPULARITY of Mesh in SL verses in Opensim and the main reason why. 

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1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

I know this isn't the main point of what you're saying, but I did want to single this out and go into more detail on the land impact issue.

Simply doing away with Land Impact, as Open Sim does, is not a good solution to anything, because prims have varying levels of impact on performance. A prim as rendered by your videocard is a mesh model, for all practical purposes, your videocard does not make any distinction between a mesh chair or a chair made out of prims. The reason you can make a mesh chair for one Land Impact, while a nearly identical looking prim chair is going to cost more, comes down to how many vertices each version of the chair uses. If the mesh chair is well made and down to one Land Impact, it is in all likelihood using far fewer vertices, making it far easier for your videocard to render.

All else being equal, if you make two identical looking environments, one using prims and the other using mesh, the mesh one is going to give you the higher framerates.

Optimized mesh, yes. But not always. In any case, render cost is not a factor in the land impact calculation, LI is all about how much load an items is presumed to add to LL's servers and connections, client-side load is completely ignored.

In addition to that, the land impact calculation has some serious flaws. Those sky high physics weights attributed to some twisted prims is one of them. As far as I know, there is no indication those numbers reflect any actual physics load increase, nor is the phenomena mentioned anywhere in the HAVOK documentation. Another flaw is that it seems to give assets server load far too much significance compared to sim server load and bandwidth and that is the main reason why prim builds tend to end up with higher LI than similar mesh ones. Even so, yes, it is better than the old prim count.

Edited by ChinRey
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6 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I do understand that a tortured prim is ...

Do you mean 'tortured prim' or do you mean a prim that has been changed as normal in the edit box - e.g. hollowed, twisted, etc.? There's a difference.

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1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

Do you mean 'tortured prim' or...

It's only torture if you forget to sedate the prim first. A small doze of tranqualizer and the poor li'l prim won't feel a thing.

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9 hours ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

However, i think you all forget one super important element : the usual "sheep behavior" of the market. 

Isn't that the same as in RL though? Marketing reps, from companies all over, bank on the fact that the masses will flock to their product (even if its crap) with the right advertising.

9 hours ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

ie those shoes with string over the legs we see endlessly in ALL the events... 

I couldn't agree more. They have been in EVERY event for at least a year now.

9 hours ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

Also you lie to your customers implying you made yourself the mesh but who cares ?

Actually a lot of people. There's an entire website dedicated to calling creators out for doing just this.

9 hours ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

Because you are famous. Because they know your name... (you may then even release the first cube that comes in Blender when u open it, and slap on it a pic of your rl cat or of your rl feet and they will buy by thousands... 

Yes and no. There are definitely users that are loyal customers that like the style of their favorite creators. I think it has less to do with them being famous and more to do with people knowing a name and trusting it. It is the same concept as you purchasing a certain brand of socks because you like them and consistently like them. Of course there are exceptions for this and just as you stated, sheep mentality flocks to items that are advertised well. You can also blame bloggers and photographers for this technically as they market for their sponsors and essentially become walking billboards. 

9 hours ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

The demo not fitting me ? naaaa , that's my fault.. i maybe dont see it well... if its good for the flikr photographers i must have it !! That' s all... yes ? photographers are posing, so rig doesnt matter ? yeah well i wont move my avi while wearing this *****  adorable coat ! that's all

Have you REALLY heard someone say "the demo doesn't fit, so it must be my fault?" I can say I have not. That's a bit silly. I think its safe to point out that you seem to have a really big problem with others' personal preferences. Of course people see that an item on a blogger and decide that they want it. They see how they can style the item and like the way it looks. That's really not hard to relate to.

9 hours ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

you sell bec your name is famous. it  does the effect of a switch on your brain. Everytime u see the name, there is a something happening in your cortex that makes you click the buy button. How do u make your name famous ? Mystery.

It's really not that mysterious... If you market yourself well and appeal to enough people, you become a SL household name. Again, this is parallel to RL.

9 hours ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

You work hard for the quality of your item ? naaaa... instead... work on the fame of your name, work on licking the right asses and you 'll get the sales.... work on quality never did anything except for a small portion of the population who arent the majority bec if they were, our world would be really different right now.

I'm not sure what events/stores you are shopping at but there are a lot of creators with lovely products in both texture and mesh. I could be missing something here, but everything you seem to have an issue with is that people on SL market the same way they would in RL. You can say "RL people don't steal others work." but that's incorrect. I can guarantee that you have something in your RL possession that is not original by nature. 

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19 minutes ago, Annika Velde said:

Isn't that the same as in RL though? Marketing reps, from companies all over, bank on the fact that the masses will flock to their product (even if its crap) with the right advertising.

 

sure it is, Read till the end of my post, i say SL is same than RL

19 minutes ago, Annika Velde said:

Have you REALLY heard someone say "the demo doesn't fit, so it must be my fault?" I can say I have not. That's a bit silly. I think its safe to point out that you seem to have a really big problem with others' personal preferences. Of course people see that an item on a blogger and decide that they want it. They see how they can style the item and like the way it looks. That's really not hard to relate to.

 

Yes i did hear some saying that and i know people doing it. 

Also i wonder how you can decide i have a big problem with other personal preferences. I wasn"t aware of it. I usually, really really, accept the idea other ppl have a different taste and opinion than i do..So well, just by explaining i know people buying even if the demo does not fit but bec its a famous brand and they must omg have the item and bla bla bla, makes me having a problem with other ppl preference ? Well... i didnt know that... and i strongly disagree... i find a bit impressive the way you judge me (not my opinion or what im saying, but the way i am - ie having a problem accepting other ppl preference)- while we never met neither discussed anything, except today in this forum.. Im impressed, yes. 

19 minutes ago, Annika Velde said:

I'm not sure what events/stores you are shopping at but there are a lot of creators with lovely products in both texture and mesh. I could be missing something here, but everything you seem to have an issue with is that people on SL market the same way they would in RL. You can say "RL people don't steal others work." but that's incorrect. I can guarantee that you have something in your RL possession that is not original by nature. 

i go to about all the popular events listed on seraphim website. You think everything u see there is originally done 100 % by the designers in most of the cases ? You are wrong. im not saying they stole anything. They didnt. But in a lot of cases (and some well placed persons would tell you 80 % , but i wouldnt go so far i would say 50 %) the mesh are not done by themselves while the vendor claims otherwise and while the SL TOS forbide you to upload anything you dont own the copyright for ..

i thank you for worrying so much about what im supposed to have a problem with, but in order to make you feel better, i can tell you  i have no problem, all is fine... the convo in the thread came about what sells more and why and i was giving my 2 cents on the topic and saying, exactly like you, that SL is same than RL (you sems to have missed this point). This is my own opinion. you seem to have a problem with it, on your end.. but no worries, i also accept really well that not everyone agrees with me when i say something. So it's fine for me :)

Edited by Trinity Yazimoto
making the point 2 more clear and some typos corrections

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58 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Do you mean 'tortured prim' or do you mean a prim that has been changed as normal in the edit box - e.g. hollowed, twisted, etc.? There's a difference.

Well as I understand it -- and I am sure others that know more will pipe in. Any prim that is no longer in it "rez" state (that is CUBE that has only been resized and perhaps tapered? don't really know that) isn't loaded into the viewer the same as a regular prim. Regular prims -- again told to me by some techie folks --- have their intrinsic "primness" recognized by the viewer.  

I specifically meant things like prims that turned into "flowers" and such after much manipulation -- hence they weren't even close to the prim they started from.  I suspect (but do not know) that the more you change a prim from its initial state the further away it is from "instant loading" (and we know it isn't that instant :D but still).

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16 minutes ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

i go to about all the popular events listed on seraphim website. You think everything u see there is originally done 100 % by the designers in most of the cases ? You are wrong. im not saying they stole anything. They didnt. But in a lot of cases (and some well placed persons would tell you 80 % , but i wouldnt go so far i would say 50 %) the mesh are not done by themselves while the vendor claims otherwise and while the SL TOS forbide you to upload anything you are dont own the copyright for it .

It is important to remember that SOME venues are perfectly happy with folks making things from templates so the creators are not breaking any rules. Venues each have their set of rules with the most prominent one being "it must be NEW and EXCLUSIVE to the event during the time of the event". Beyond that the rules and the attitude of the venue owners can be very different on the subject. Some really want to know who is cheating and other SO DO NOT. Kinda like The Lab, they simply want to cover their posteriors. 

The other perfectly legal method of being in the mesh game (mostly fashion - at least I don't know any H and G folks that do this but they certainly could) is to purchase work for hire exclusive mesh and then texture that . That is both completely with the rules of the venues (at least I have never been in one where you couldn't do that) AND fine with the LL TOS as in that case the person uploading DOES own the copyright to the mesh files. It is a bit like high class designers taking credit for something made in their workshops. Presumably they had input on the style and design and likely had a RL photo to send to the mesh maker. 

 

I have no idea if your statistic are correct or even close. I DO know that some folks cheat and put up template (again often clothes) when they are supposed to be original. It is silly really and kinda funny when two or more brands have the SAME clothes textured differently in booths not far from each other.  Heads sometimes roll :D.

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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yes and i have friends working with templates and creating beautiful things and happy to go to events accepting them. But you cant compare traffics of those venues with the other "big" ones (you know which ones i am talking about). Althought im really happy finally to have dived in blender, and so have pushed my limits, i still think that sometimes its best to let talented ppl do what they do the best and leave the rest to other ppl more talented on another aspect of the work. 

Also yes, i know also about those who hire meshers.. and its not illegal either, nor against sl tos, yes... but still..usually ppl think (and maybe the mistake is on the side of thoses ppl), that 100 % original mesh means done by the creator themselves. Of course, noone says that it is true.. noone claims it... but well, still it is misleading most of the ppl. it would probably change nothing to a decision of buying or not, imho. But... what is the difference with buying a template and texture it finally ? You can also buy an exclusive template or semi exclusive. The fact is that you didnt made the mesh yourself and your job consist on texturing only (which is of course a lot of work and imho, not less than meshing), so what is that different from ppl using templates obviously and not allowed in most of the biggest events ? 

For me the problem lays here. i dont mind who does what, as long it is honnest and things are fair.

but In SL market, just like in RL, i see no fairness..;.. Well, there is long time im not expecting any anyway, rl or sl lol

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13 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well as I understand it -- and I am sure others that know more will pipe in. Any prim that is no longer in it "rez" state (that is CUBE that has only been resized and perhaps tapered? don't really know that) isn't loaded into the viewer the same as a regular prim. Regular prims -- again told to me by some techie folks --- have their intrinsic "primness" recognized by the viewer.

Not sure exactly what you mean by that.

But a prim is stored in the assets server and transferred to the viewer as a set of parameters, known as "prim properties" and the viewer uses the values of those prim properties to calculate the object's shape before it converts it into mesh. This is the same process regardless of how much or little the prim has been twisted.

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24 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Not sure exactly what you mean by that.

But a prim is stored in the assets server and transferred to the viewer as a set of parameters, known as "prim properties" and the viewer uses the values of those prim properties to calculate the object's shape before it converts it into mesh. This is the same process regardless of how much or little the prim has been twisted.

OK. So other was bad info then. I know that a torus is harder on the server (at least I have been told that repeatedly) than a cube. Is that what Penny meant then?  Whatever. I need to leave this for now and continue my new adventures in Blenderland. Thanks for the info. 

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21 minutes ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

Also yes, i know also about those who hire meshers.. and its not illegal either, nor against sl tos, yes... but still..usually ppl think (and maybe the mistake is on the side of thoses ppl), that 100 % original mesh means done by the creator themselves. Of course, noone says that it is true.. noone claims it... but well, still it is misleading most of the ppl. it would probably change nothing to a decision of buying or not, imho. But... what is the difference with buying a template and texture it finally ?

Oh, original work...

Is it ok if I talk about textures? I'll get to other porducts eventually.

Take a look at this one:

592dc801c2e8f_Textureexample.png.457faba4fc9721a2869f463540dbe589.png

It's mine, I made it myself. It took me a whole minute of hard work!

One of the bigger texture houses in SL sells an original texture that as far as I can see is identical - there may be some minor differences in shading. The owner of that store made it herself, it's her original.

The reason is we used the same texture creator tools and only made one very minor modification to one of the factory presets.

I think it's fair to say that more than half the textures that are lsited for sale in SL these days are made this way with exactly the same software. How original is that?

There's a program called Make Human that does pretty much the same with mesh clothing. You have to rig the clothes yourself but most of the hard design work is already done for you, I think it's fair to say that more than half of the "original" mesh clothing you see on MP today is made that way.

Compare that to somebody who buys a full perm template on MP and spends hours carefully creating their own unique texture for it. Which aproach is the most "original"?

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