MMO Player Perspective on Sansar

[Rhonda Huntress]

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ChinRey wrote:

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HarrisonMcKenzie wrote:

Sansar isn't SL2.

 

You mention that early on, but it's clear that it hasn't sunk in.

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That is a problem of course. Linden Lab, creators of the famous Second Life, is building a new virtual reality. Despite all the known facts, it's very hard

not

to think of it as "SL2". That probably explains the contradictions Nalytha mentioned: Just like everybody else, Ebbe and the other Lindens can't help thinking of Sansar as a Second Life replacement. Even though they know better, it's still there in the back of their minds.

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While they are congruent in the large view because they will both be virtual worlds it is going to be a massive change.  I believe it will be a distillation of SL.

Second Life = Woodstock

Sansar = Super Bowl half time show.

 

In another perspective, take the 80/20 rule and run Machiavellian with it.  Of everything that made money, what were the top 20%?  Expand those aspects, protect them from beiang copied, worked around or achieved through other processes and chop everything else.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Rhonda Huntress wrote:

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ChinRey wrote:

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HarrisonMcKenzie wrote:

Sansar isn't SL2.

 

You mention that early on, but it's clear that it hasn't sunk in.

---

That is a problem of course. Linden Lab, creators of the famous Second Life, is building a new virtual reality. Despite all the known facts, it's very hard

not

to think of it as "SL2". That probably explains the contradictions Nalytha mentioned: Just like everybody else, Ebbe and the other Lindens can't help thinking of Sansar as a Second Life replacement. Even though they know better, it's still there in the back of their minds.

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While they are congruent in the large view because they will both be virtual worlds it is going to be a massive change.  I believe it will be a distillation of SL.

Second Life = Woodstock

Sansar = Super Bowl half time show.

 

In another perspective, take the 80/20 rule and run Machiavellian with it.  Of everything that made money, what were the top 20%?  Expand those aspects, protect them from beiang copied, worked around or achieved through other processes and chop everything else.

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Actually that's a near-perfect analogy, because Second Life wasn't designed to become what Second Life now is and Woodstock wasn't intended to be what Woodstock became.

Woodstock was originally supposed to be a profit-making concert - it became a massive free concert by accident. After the concert and the lawsuits by surrounding landholders the organizers were $1.4 million in debt. They were eventually bailed out due to proceeds from the record and movie. Hippie chicks weren't the only ones losing their shirts...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock

Second Life was originally supposed to be a small, coherent world. There are notecards of early meetings (i.e. before there was a Teen Grid) where the Lindens said there would only be 150 accounts per last name. The economy wasn't a major concern. At the very, very beginning what became Second Life was a combat sim with terraforming by grenades.

Things we take for granted like private estates and large, profitable merchants weren't on the radar and there are many things we take for granted that not only weren't expected but that the architecture is completely unsuited for. Mainland skyboxes/skydomes are idiotic - there is absolutely no reason to simulate a full region constantly connected to eight others in a massive grid for something that is built in such a way that the owner wants it to be completely isolated. It only works that way in Second Life because the system was designed for connected ground-level regions.

The ability to build in-world in real time is a huge load on the simulator system despite the fact that very few people actually do it regularly and even when they do they only do it occasionally. There are many regions that literally haven't been changed in years but the simulators still have to check for changes eight to forty-five times per second 24 hours a day.

After Woodstock nobody tried to do it again for 20 years. The Super Bowl brings in huge amounts of money every year. There may be a pattern here...

[Bobbie Faulds]

I wasn't here but have seen pictures of SL when it first opened. None of what we take for granted was here. You had to pay to rez a prim or to TP to anyplace other than a hud in the sim you were going to. You did get your money back when you took the prim up, btw. It took time to get where SL is.

Sansar will take time to build the buildings. Notre Dame in Paris, the Great Wall of China, the Kremlin, etc had to be built from the ground up. Same applies in Sansar.

Now. my understanding is you rent a domain from LL but you have to find your server space on your own and pay for it separately. LL won't be hosting the sims themselves. This means that each space's performance is going to vary, depending on how good the host server is. These spaces won't be connected to the SL inventory server, hence why you won't be able to take your inventory with you. 

As for comparining SL to WoW, there is no comparison. WoW uses a set of textures that are optimized and used on everything in the game and are preloaded onto your computer. SL, however, is about 98% user created. That means everything you look is was made by someone in SL and has to be loaded into your system. This means the prims/sculpts/mesh, textures, animations, etc. Considering that every time you look around you're loading new stuff, SL does a pretty good job. 

So, we'll see how it all shakes out when Sansar opens.

[wherorangi]

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

 

Now. my understanding is you rent a domain from LL but you have to find your server space on your own and pay for it separately. LL won't be hosting the sims themselves

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am not sure about this. Is possible and if so then it would seem to be a Enterprise Edition for some specialist standalone large org purpose. A off-the-grid thingy

if private servers were connected to the grid then there would be issues in this for carriables (avatar models, layers, clothing and accessories). Is very similar to the issues that Opensim has with this aspect

for sure there would be some creatives who would enter into RL contracts with Enterprise Edition owner/providers for content for that enterprise, but I am not seeing how that would eventuate into a millions and millions participant market

 

[Nalytha]

"As for comparing SL to WoW, there is no comparison. WoW uses a set of textures that are optimized and used on everything in the game and are preloaded onto your computer. SL, however, is about 98% user created. That means everything you look is was made by someone in SL and has to be loaded into your system. This means the prims/sculpts/mesh, textures, animations, etc. Considering that every time you look around you're loading new stuff, SL does a pretty good job. "

Sorry, my intention was not to compare Second Life to any particular MMO. The MMO reference has more to do with the similarities in development phases, releases/launches, advertising,  etc. When I talked about people moving from one MMO to its successor, I meant to address mainly the other things brought up -- time invested in the first one, friendships made, memories, and work. All of that disappears when you shift games. It's tough, but there's a payoff. You get to embark on a new adventure. 

You are right. Most of SL is user created. And the idea of a new world without all of the stuff we've worked for being in it seems hard. But most of what has been created in Second Life has ALREADY been abandoned by its creators. This game is so old, that most items you see, the creator probably doesn't even play anymore. Second Life DOES do a good job, all things considering. But even LL knows SL has problems. They have an opportunity with Sansar to please TWO audiences at once. The content creators/advertisers and the current general SL userbase. It seems like they are going for only one target while hinting that the second audience is something that will eventually follow. 

Edit: If I was going to compare SL to a particular game, it wouldn't be one like WoW. Maybe some of the old school text MMOs. Like the Iron Realm games which have been around for 20 years and are still running. Much of those games are user created. Sure, it's only in text. But people spent decades working on building a world and economy, pantheos and politics. They built buildings and homes. Sure, it's primitive, in text. Iron Realms made subsequent games. The people who played the earliest one may have decided to not transition to the new ones. You know what happened by them creating parallel worlds but wanting to keep their foot in the door of each? The population for each one lowered. The population is spread out between the games and because of this, all of the games suffer. Each game has revenue generating possibilities, but with the population spread thin, new players are less likely to stay and spend money.

[Bobbie Faulds]

You assume that Sansar is directed at the same players SL is. From what I've read, it's aimed at a different group of people. Yes, I'll probalby visit, but I doubt I'll stay. It's like comparing the players that like games like Myst to players that like Doom. Both have worlds you explore and things to accomplish but both are totally different games.

[Perrie Juran]

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ChinRey wrote:

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Nalytha wrote:

I don't see the necessity for a landmass.

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Many don't. But there are also a lot of Second Life users who regard that as one of the most essential features of SL and they will not consider Sansar relevant as a replacement.

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When we first asked Ebbe if there would be a Mainland (or equivilant) he acted surprised that we were surprised that he said, "No."  That conversation ended with Ebbe saying they'd have to look that over again.

 

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ChinRey wrote:

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HarrisonMcKenzie wrote:

Sansar isn't SL2.

 

You mention that early on, but it's clear that it hasn't sunk in.

---

That is a problem of course. Linden Lab, creators of the famous Second Life, is building a new virtual reality. Despite all the known facts, it's very hard

not

to think of it as "SL2". That probably explains the contradictions Nalytha mentioned: Just like everybody else, Ebbe and the other Lindens can't help thinking of Sansar as a Second Life replacement. Even though they know better, it's still there in the back of their minds.

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My first gut reaction to your statement, "Linden Lab.... is building a new virtual reality," was nope, that's wrong.  At least in part it is but I'm not sure if in whole.

So far the way that Sansar has been described they are building a new platform for others to build realities in.  When SL opened, while yes it was a paltform also, there was a virtual reality (a small mainland) there for people to explore.  (Am I splitting hairs here?)

 

[Nalytha]

Eh, I think to a point you are splitting hairs, but that doesn't mean you are incorrect. Yes, SL has a mainland, but for the most part, SL is user created. Almost everything you experience in SL was made by fellow residents. And I don't think that's far off from what Sansar is about at all. 

“New Platform Enables User-Created Social VR Experiences” 

"Over the past few months, a small number of creators have already made an impressive variety of awesome social VR experiences with Project Sansar, from virtual versions of real-world locations to fantasy worlds and stylized game-like environments, and more."

http://www.roadtovr.com/project-sansar-creator-preview-sign-ups-are-now-open/

[Perrie Juran]

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wherorangi wrote:

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ChinRey wrote:

Ebbe mentioned something like that early in the process. But it turns out the biggest simulation Sansar can manage is 4x4 km - the euqivalent of about 250 sims. Anything bigger than that and the physics become "unpredictable".

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it depends on the math library (and underlying hardware/chips) the effect of [float] math rounding. Not sure if Sansar will be using 32bit or 64bit server hardware. If 32bit then 4K is about right. Is why the Z (sky)  in SL is 4K also

eta [float]

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But Gordon Moore did say, "It can't continue forever. The nature of exponentials is that you push them out and eventually disaster happens."  To avert disaster you'd have to break Murphy's Law.  That could be very dangerous.  It could be the ultimate, "Something went wrong."

[Perrie Juran]

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

You assume that Sansar is directed at the same players SL is. From what I've read, it's aimed at a different group of people. Yes, I'll probalby visit, but I doubt I'll stay. It's like comparing the players that like games like Myst to players that like Doom. Both have worlds you explore and things to accomplish but both are totally different games.

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I've been saying for quite a while now that SL Users are not LL's target audience and that they really don't care if we migrate.

[Nalytha]

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I've been saying for quite a while now that SL Users are not LL's target audience and that they really don't care if we migrate.

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I can conceed that this may be true. In my very humble opinion, this would be a mistake. They can capitalize on targeting BOTH audiences at the same time. It will draw MORE users in. More users = more opportunity for making profit. 

 

Edit: Geeze, I really need to figure out how to quote properly. 

[Perrie Juran]

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Nalytha wrote:

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I've been saying for quite a while now that SL Users are

not

LL's target audience and that they really don't care if we migrate.

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I can conceed that this may be true. In my very humble opinion, this would be a mistake. They can capitalize on targeting BOTH audiences at the same time. It will draw MORE users in. More users = more opportunity for making profit. 

 

Edit: Geeze, I really need to figure out how to quote properly. 

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To target the SL audience then they would need to do the thing that so far they have said they don't want to do:  Duplicate the SL experience in Sansar. 

Yes, it's possible the wow factor will be so great that we will make the jump.  But even with all its warts and wrinkles and other assorted glitches I kind of like SL.  Sure I'd prefer a better engine under the hood, one that doesn't rely on hand cranking to get it started.  But I do still enjoy the ride.

[Rhonda Huntress]

No, reusing the same customers will not increase revenue.  They need more, new customers to go to Sansar.  I'm sure they would prefer you lived in both to be honest.

[Nalytha]

I'm actually satisfied with SL as it is as well. I just wish more people played. And there's many reasons why they don't. It's such a huge world that can feel very lonely at times. 

[Nalytha]

I think who LL is targeting the most is the people who are actually going to spend money. So they care most about not just the casual players who never spend anything. They care about the money makers. Many people are not going to be able to afford to invest in both realms. And even those who could, if half the usebase is in each game, you are only reaching a small fraction of your potential audience. If you have everyone together in one place, the product is going to increase interest because people are actually playing in it/talking about it on the web/advertising it basically. More people playing equals more money for everyone involved. I think people are more likely to spend less money in a game that feels like it's dying. 

Also, LL is in an unparelled advantage to really take the world by storm with the VR innovative technology. Lots of people are just now getting into it and the full possibilities are unknown. LL has made a name for breaking through hurdles and creating the unimagined possibilities that exist today. 

[Parhelion Palou]

I'll toss in comments to a couple posts here, not just wherorangi's:

- Sansar will run 90 fps, because that's what the Rift needs to keep people from losing their lunch.

- LL's not that concerned with individual users in Sansar; their customers will be companies or individuals who rent(?) worlds from LL. Those companies or individuals will be expected to bring in people to their experiences. It's not LL's job. I suspect that's one of the things LL likes most about Sansar. BTW, a year or so ago Ebbe said the experience owners could set up their own registration process. I wonder if that's still in their plans.

- I thought that someone might create a small version of SL using Sansar, but then I read how the creation process works in Sansar. If you want to change your world, it has to be edited offline, then it goes through an optimization process, then your world/experience goes online. Say you rent out parcels in your Sansar world ... nobody but you (unless you want to hand out your password) would be able to modify their parcel. So much for an SL clone. Sansar is for companies to use to create VR experiences. I could see fast food companies creating small VR games with Sansar.

 

[Nalytha]

The editing offline is VERY interesting and changes a lot. 

[wherorangi]

as you probably worked out by now, everybody replying has had this convo before. A number of times now

the cool thing about you Nalytha is that you are quite passionate about pretty much everything to do with virtuals seems like. Worlds, games, experiences, etc. Is also apparent that you do research stuff, and think about it. You have a curious mind. How does that work ? Why does it work like that ? Who does that ? How could it be done another way ? Why would it be done in that another way ? And on and on and on

i think thats really cool. The curious mind. Lots of people who have sustained SL over the time, thru just showing up and doing whatever, have curious minds. Even when they can sometimes think they dont. And at other times can sometimes get or feel a bit jaded or a bit worn down

we can be a bit self-deprecating about it all sometimes as well. Like. Topic. Chat chat chat blah de blah blah. ooo! look! a shiny !! Totes distraction (:

+

i am reasonably sure that you are going to love SL, deeply and passionately. Like most of us, you maybe develop a healthy dose of skepticism about the provider LL, but SL (the world itself and the people within) is where we come from pretty much. And is ok this

also bc you do research stuff and think about it, is why you are being replied to here by everyone (who have had this same convo a lot). Your curiousity and pursuit of shiny is really appealing to some/many SLers (:

 

[wherorangi]

thanks (:

that makes sense to me. I am not sure that I like it, but it does make sense. I dont know anyone on the Sansar Invite list. So basically I just guess (:

 

 

[wherorangi]

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Parhelion Palou wrote:

 

- I thought that someone might create a small version of SL using Sansar, but then I read how the creation process works in Sansar. If you want to change your world, it has to be edited offline, then it goes through an optimization process, then your world/experience goes online. Say you rent out parcels in your Sansar world ... nobody but you (unless you want to hand out your password) would be able to modify their parcel

 

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I suppose it could be worked this. Tenant parcel terraforming probably be out. So a planned estate, similar to Linden Homes and other SL planned home private estates

it would be possible I think to emulate terraforming with mesh objects, assuming the experience owner allowed this in the convenant

Ebbe Linden did say once that the ability to mount/move/tweak objects in the runtime would be a prerequiste. Hopefully that still remains the case

 

[Nalytha]

Thank you so much for your kind words! They mean so much. 

While my age might seem young, as I said, I was actually in SL when it first came out. I've returned off and on. I've ALWAYS kept up with SL, waiting for it to get better and better and also looking for the next big fish to replace it. 

I became interested in virtual worlds as soon as I was introduced to the internet. I went from chatrooms to text based online games to eventually MMOs and virtual worlds like SL. I am very passionate about this genre. I have such high hopes for the future of VR and virtual worlds in general. Technology is amazing. 

It just saddens me a little to see so many traditional MMOs advancing leaps and bounds and the leader in virtual worlds seems to cautious and hesitant to move forward. I just KNOW LL could make something even more amazing than SL. 

[wherorangi]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

But Gordon Moore did say, "It can't continue forever. The nature of exponentials is that you push them out and eventually disaster happens."  To avert disaster you'd have to break Murphy's Law.  That could be very dangerous.  It could be the ultimate, "Something went wrong."

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(: yes

is kinda funny weird how we go sometimes

like o.m.g !!! somebody left a whole 3 micro cycles spare. What a waste !! quick quick stick something in it. Next thing kaabooom!! and it all falls over

so get the engineer in and say to them. What have you done ??!! its not working !! fix it !!!!

engineer goes: umm! theres this thingy called physical restraints. And we go: thats sounds pretty boring. And we all fall asleep while the engineer is tell us all about it. zzzzzz !!

then after we wake up the engineer goes: Or! we could use magic !!

and we all look at each other and go: wooooo! that be cool. Like way cool ! And we say to the engineer: sooooo! where we get some of that magic engineer

and the engineer start rub their head and make a aaaaaahhhing noise. And we go: are you ok ? do you need to have a liedown. We had a liedown before. A sleep even. So you have a liedown ok and will be alright. But not to long ok. bc you still have to fix what you broke. At least until we get a magic engineer

jejeje (:

 

 

[AdamZadig]

Lots of people with lots of contradicting statements. One minute you're stressing how SAN is not SL and then you're comparing land prices and quoting LL who clearly are targetting SL Avatars to move over to SAN. 

I guess really nobody knows what the plan is. Personally, from what I've read, LL ARE targetting SL users to get involved in SAN and it does look like they expect SAN to be their main Virtual World. I would imagine that they have a long term goal to move everything over to SAN and close down SL. yes there are other uses for SAN but why wouldnt LL want to move their world on to it too?

 

Thats just based on the comments from LL.

[JoJo Aurelia]

They want a game that the players are not making more money than they are,  such as unnamed land owners.  Residents have too much power in Second life,  hence the protests the lab has to deal with all the time.  It won't be an open source. They want full control without their economy run by the whims or threats by players when they make changes.  They no longer want other viewers.   I've sat in on resident and Linden meetings.  It's no joke that residents are telling the CEO they don't like something. Or others picketing in protest.  I've seen and read the crazy,  secondlife doesn't make big money.  The kind of money SL makes is like a drip in the pan,  nor do they have a big player base.  What it is is a nice income as long as they keep the players happy.  They don't want to deal with residents anymore. 

[ChinRey]

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

As for comparining SL to WoW, there is no comparison. WoW uses a set of textures that are optimized and used on everything in the game and are preloaded onto your computer. SL, however, is about 98% user created.

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Yes and that was an important part of my point. Even a scene optimized for efficiency as much as possible in SL, won't really be good enough for Sansar as LL describes it. I tried it once and although both I and other content creators who saw it were amazed at how low the lag was, it still wasn't anywhere near that goal and it's easy to see why.