This isn't allowed? Advertising

[Sy Beck]

It's fun sometimes to answer the OP without looking at the thread and then see how the irregulars have gone off on their own version of what the OP really meant.  

[Ren Toxx]

Antumbra, to begin with, I don't even know why did you open this thread at all. You essentially asked if what you're doing is OK, everyone* told you that it's not, and now you resent it? Why make the question, then, if you weren't going to accept the answer?

 

---

Antumbra wrote: [...] 

It's not like i'm FORCING anyone to do anything! [...]

---

By that same token, hardly anything would be spam; heck, even the hordes of Hindu escort threads we suffer in these forums everyday would not be spam... after all, they're not forcing us, right? They flood with hundreds of posts, but hey, we can ignore them and we can choose not to visit those sites, so it's not spam, right?

 

And, really, Antumbra... 'uptight and antisocial' because we'd rather not be spammed? Do you seriously believe those are even remotely related concepts? If many commercials phone you or ring your home door or reach your email every day offering cable, pills, bibles, miraculous diets, travel plans, enlargements, washing machines, etc., do you honestly think all those people are trying to be friends with you? If you IM someone with the intent of advertising your store, and no matter how you sugar-coat it with 'hi, how are you? You seem an interesting person whom I'd like to be friends with... now, let me ask you something about this dress...'... your intent still *is* to sell something, NOT socialize with that person... in fact, the very fact that you act friendly merely as a profit-seeking manoeuvre, should make the pretended friendship all the less desirable; quite honestly, I wouldn't want to be friends with you -or, for that matter, even socialize with you- if all I were to you is another advertising target.

 

Um, and another thing... you seem to recommend that 'people loosen up and not take everything so seriously'. It actually is a good advice... but judging by your reaction to most of the answers here, you seem to have forgotten to follow your own advice. I already gather that you didn't like the answers but... as I said, it was you who posed the question :smileywink:

 

 

 

 

(*) And yes, I know not everyone here told you that... but since you generalized saying that 'everyone on SL are so uptight and unsocial', surely I too can generalize, right?

[Codex Alpha]

Umm, I'm pretty sure that applies to OUTSIDE advertising of websites, schemes, products like Amway or other things like that, not showing people your cool DJ crate station in a sandbox somewhere and people gather around to find out more about it.

SL should be about sharing and givng people info they are interested in is not spamming.

If the land owner forbids any kind of advertising or promotion, then so be it.

But you're going to have a hard time getting anyone to seriously ban someone for promoting their store in SL LOL.

You can't have a free market system, encourage new users of SL, then tell them they cant promote themselves.

Once again, the key is "IS IT SPAM?" Spam is repeated, annoying behaviour that is clear to all.

Goign to a sandbox and saying "HEy people, what do you think of my new couch I made??" should never be considered spam. COMMUNICATION should always be open, and I'm pretty sure most people can decide what is truly spam or not.

[Codex Alpha]

Please don't listen to the Nazis. You know if you're spamming or sharing. THere is a big difference between the two.

Some sandboxes forbid it, and others don't.

Just pay for the premium sandbox like I do, and come share/advertise get my opinion on your product.

[Dillon Levenque]

---

entity0x wrote:

Please don't listen to the Nazis.

You know if you're spamming

or sharing. THere is a big difference between the two.

 

---

 

I very much doubt that, given that what she described herself doing in the OP was exactly that. If she had spoken to people and said, "Hi, I made this dress, if you like it I'll give you a landmark for my shop", at least people would have known what she was about from the start. That might be slightly annoying, just as it would be in RL—I don't really enjoy people coming up to me on the street and offering me flyers, for instance—but at least that way everyone would have the option of saying 'No, thanks' and ending the conversation, without having to go through all the "Do you like my dress?" business and trying to find a way not to seem to mean to someone who appears to be totally clueless.

[Codex Alpha]

Nonsense. As in real life, self promotion with friends and colleagues is where you begin.

You could be having a conversation with them, and share with them the new project you have been working on, it's not a 'pitch' its sharing.

When you live in a free market society, reasonable expectation of free speech and being somewhat 'put upon' to a certain point by others is the cost of it.

I understand you don't like it. Oh well.

But calling someone who is sharing their projects that they are excited about, with others in a 'social' game, is neither a spammer or a griefer, and should never fear a ban unless they go overboard.

 

[Dillon Levenque]

No, it is you who are spouting nonsense. These aren't friends and colleagues. These are people randomly encountered in a sandbox.

[Codex Alpha]

Then you don't know what spam is, or how it is used in the TOS.

Just put people who  you dont want to hear (in whatever capacity) on ignore. Problem solved.

But you will not sit on forums in a 'social' game that has in-game trading of goods and services for FUN, and restrict the rights of others to promote themselves.

[Dillon Levenque]

I'm not restricting anyone's right to do anything. I'm saying the OP's behavior was wrong (WHICH, by the way, was my answer to the question she asked in her OP—that's what the forum is for: asking questions and offering opinions). Wrong according to SL guidelines, wrong according to how people interact with one another in society. SL/RL, doesn't matter. What she was doing was wrong.

And by the way, I know exactly what SPAM is. Even if I hadn't, it's been defined earlier in this thread. 'Unsolicited' be your key word there.

 

 

 

eta the parenthetical, since I doubt you see the forum concept as I do. You clearly don't see SL the way I do, given your use of the word 'game' to describe it.

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

entity0x wrote:

Then you don't know what spam is, or how it is used in the TOS.

Just put people who  you dont want to hear (in whatever capacity) on ignore. Problem solved.

But you will not sit on forums in a 'social' game that has in-game trading of goods and services for FUN, and restrict the rights of others to promote themselves.

---

I suppose you would have no problem if every merchant in SL were to send you a LM to their store out of the blue.  I mean, since each of them would have only done it once, it wouldn't be spam... right?

...Dres

[Perrie Juran]

---

entity0x wrote:

Then you don't know what spam is, or how it is used in the TOS.

Just put people who  you dont want to hear (in whatever capacity) on ignore. Problem solved.

But you will not sit on forums in a 'social' game that has in-game trading of goods and services for FUN, and restrict the rights of others to promote themselves.

---

First off, it's not in-game trading for "fun" we are talking about here, it's for MONEY.

Secondly, we did not write the restrictions.  Nor do we know how in this particular instance LL would respond.  I myself wouldn't waste LL's time with an AR here.  I'm more concerned with those who for example use auto subscribers when you visit their stores and people who join Merchant's and other groups and systematically go through all the members of the group to promote their products.  

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Antumbra wrote:

I totally agree with you

everyone on sl are so uptight and so antisocial

!!! When I walk into a place

I want to see everyone speaking to each other as if it was real life

not quiet because everyone is in private message. It just looks like a place full of parked avatars and in fact very boring. I think some people need to loosen up and not take everything so seriously. Also by invading their "privacy" its not like i'm bumping into them or anything I just asked them a simple question. I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't wanna go then don't go? No need to make such a big deal out of something. Like seriously just loosen up. 

---

You may believe your claim, and you may believe SL residents are obligated to deliver your wants, but in both cases I believe you're wrong. I won't go into the "legalities" of your adverting method, but I think it's deceptive, manipulative, and unlikely to work. I see evidence I'm not the only one to feel this way.

But you would not be the first person to ignore evidence that did not comport with your world view. I do that every day.

Eventually the dissonance is too big to ignore, and faced with methods that don't work on the people around me, I've found it easier to change methods than people.

Though I have done both.

;-)

[Codex Alpha]

For SOME in-game trading and selling of products is SERIOUS BUSINESS. they pay their utilitiy bills.

Its people like that that ruin this whle experience for many, and kill SL.

At least you understand that auto subs, and auto messages, etc is actually SPAM, and not the OPS actions, which are PERFECTLY REASONABLE IN A FREE AND DEMOCRATIC AND OPEN MARKET FOR ALL.

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Dillon Levenque wrote:

I don't really enjoy people coming up to me on the street and offering me flyers, for instance—but at least that way everyone would have the option of saying 'No, thanks' and ending the conversation, without having to go through all the "Do you like my dress?" business and trying to find a way not to seem to mean to someone who appears to be totally clueless.

---

I was enjoying the view at Nuuanu Pali Lookout on Oahu when a woman about my age, but higher mileage, teetered along the top of a stone wall in heels, LBD, and feather boa and asked "Do you think I'm hot?"

Talk about clueless.

Next time.

[Sy Beck]

 

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

entity0x wrote:

Then you don't know what spam is, or how it is used in the TOS.

Just put people who  you dont want to hear (in whatever capacity) on ignore. Problem solved.

But you will not sit on forums in a 'social' game that has in-game trading of goods and services for FUN, and restrict the rights of others to promote themselves.

---

I suppose you would have no problem if every merchant in SL were to send you a LM to their store out of the blue.  I mean, since each of them would have only done it once, it wouldn't be spam... right?

...Dres

---

Succinctness.  And no one sinks and sucks like you ;-)

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

entity0x wrote:

For SOME in-game trading and selling of products is SERIOUS BUSINESS. they pay their utilitiy bills.

Its people like that that ruin this whle experience for many, and kill SL.

At least you understand that auto subs, and auto messages, etc is actually SPAM, and not the OPS actions, which are PERFECTLY REASONABLE IN A FREE AND DEMOCRATIC AND OPEN MARKET FOR ALL.

---

If not for the ability of some to do exactly that which you decry as the bane of existence in Second Life, Second Life would no longer exist.

...Dres

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Sy Beck wrote:

 

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

entity0x wrote:

Then you don't know what spam is, or how it is used in the TOS.

Just put people who  you dont want to hear (in whatever capacity) on ignore. Problem solved.

But you will not sit on forums in a 'social' game that has in-game trading of goods and services for FUN, and restrict the rights of others to promote themselves.

---

I suppose you would have no problem if every merchant in SL were to send you a LM to their store out of the blue.  I mean, since each of them would have only done it once, it wouldn't be spam... right?

...Dres

---

Succinctness.  And no one sinks and sucks like you ;-)

---

I bet you tell that to all the boys. :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

...Dres

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Antumbra wrote:

I totally agree with you everyone on sl are so uptight and so antisocial!!! When I walk into a place

I want to see everyone speaking to each other as if it was real life

not quiet because everyone is in private message. It just looks like a place full of parked avatars and in fact very boring. I think some people need to loosen up and not take everything so seriously. Also by invading their "privacy" its not like i'm bumping into them or anything I just asked them a simple question. I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't wanna go then don't go? No need to make such a big deal out of something. Like seriously just loosen up. 

---

Where do you go in RL where people routinely have mass conversations with strangers?

[Tari Landar]

---

entity0x wrote:

For SOME in-game trading and selling of products is SERIOUS BUSINESS. they pay their utilitiy bills.

Its people like that that ruin this whle experience for many, and kill SL.

At least you understand that auto subs, and auto messages, etc is actually SPAM, and not the OPS actions, which are PERFECTLY REASONABLE IN A FREE AND DEMOCRATIC AND OPEN MARKET FOR ALL.

---

Perhaps this is an odd question to ask, but how does the fact that some take business in sl seriously ruin the experience for anyone else?

I mean I do understand that some choose not to take sl, business or otherwise, seriously. I respect that entirely. Then there are others who take business seriously, but likely do not necessarily need it for rl survival.  I respect that as well.  There are of course many groups of people in sl, we can all be classified in one, or another, or multiple, at any given time.

What I am failing to understand is why would the methods in which others choose to enjoy sl, serious or not, have any effect on the experience of others? Aside from griefers anyway-who can easily ruin an enjoyable experience for people, as they are likely up to no good. So that would make sense. Although we can easily move away from the unpleasant experience as well, so we all have that recourse.  But someone who makes a rl living in sl, ruining the experience for others...the mere thought is baffling.

I am pretty sure the fact that I have paid rl bills, and fed my rl children, using money I have made in sl, is not ruining the experience of anyone else.  In fact, I'd wager a guess it is actually helping others, because the reason I have made that money is because they have bought my products. They wanted them, they bought them, they enjoyed them, my family and my customers were both rewarded. It is a win-win situation. How could that possibly negatively affect anyone else?

Eh.. regardless, back to the OP.

While I don't necessarily like your tactics, I also don't believe *everyone* would be annoyed by it.  I do agree that many will be.  You may not see it as spam, but I do see it as spam. Not necessarily horrible spam, or worthy of an AR or something like that. But annoying in and of itself anyway.  To say you are only trying to be social, would be a lie. I'm not trying to be harsh, but that really isn't your goal, and I like to call a spade a spade.  Now if you really want to know if I like your outfit, go ahead and ask, I'll gladly answer(assuming I'm not busy, which if I am away from my home, I'm likely not, lol). I am willing to bet we would have a nice conversation.  During that conversation we could even talk about creating, because after reading one another's profile we would see that we're both creators. That's a great common ground to expand on. It's entirely likely I'll even ask you for your lm, or link to your mp store(assuming I didn't already get it from your profile, lol). I am more likely to shop from you when I am interested in you, and your products.

So, you see, in that way, the "advertising" you're doing, is more social than business, and isn't as likely to be seen as annoying.  But a rather one-sided conversation that basically goes "hey, what do you think about this dress", to which someone replies" I love it", and then you drop a lm on them...that's more business than social, and that's also unsolicited advertising. Of course we all get that on a daily basis, we get junk mail(and email) advertising tossed at us from every corner.. yadda, yadda...So, it's expected.  But if you really want folks to be more social, ya gotta put a little more effort into making it seem like that's what you're really after.  Some may still find your methods sketchy, you may still get an AR now and again. Though I've never personally see LL do anything at all about ARs like that, I won't say they never have, or will,  because I don't know.  Should you annoy someone with your tactics, whatever they may be, the most appropriate response would simply be an apology(and perhaps you can ask them a more appropriate way to do so, they may be willing to help, you never know). Then, just drop it. No need to be angry, or assume the person is uptight, that's just pointless. Just learn from your mistakes and move on.  You may find that overall your tactics aren't working anyway, even if no one ever tells you these things. People aren't uptight simply because they do not like something, that's just silly. Not everyone is always going to agree(that's utterly impossible) You are going to run into these things everywhere in life. It's best to learn how to deal with them, or even adapt your ways so you don't see it nearly as often, if need be.

You did ask for opinions though, so you can't really be angry that you got ones you don't agree with. You would, in fact, be doing the exact same thing this person did to you. He/she did not agree with your tactics, and your opinions, and told you so. You think the response was unwarranted then.  So why would an angry(or seemingly so) response from you to these opinions be warranted? Disagreeing with people and how they do things, or what they say, isn't always a bad thing.

 

[Sy Beck]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Sy Beck wrote:

Succinctness.  And no one sinks and sucks like you ;-)

---

I bet you tell that to all the boys. :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

...Dres

---

Yeah, but they never hear because I'm holding their ears so tightly *shrugs

[Canoro Philipp]

so what if Antumbra is being social with commercial intent?

i appreciate if a store owner smile at me while selling me the products, even offering a sample in a friendly way, instead of being all cold business with me.

we complain about reciving landmark offers without asking for them, and we do recieve them in many places we visit in SL, repeatedly, every single time we arrive, is offering a landmark when you arrive at some place spam, and therefore the owners of that place should be banned from SL?

different from those sim owners, that repetadly and without us asking for it, offer you a landmark, Antenumbra is offering it one time only, her way of advertising is less harmful and more friendly than just throwing you a landmark without even saying "hi".

i dont find it offending that a store owner promote its products in a friendly way, i appreciate it.

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Canoro Philipp wrote:

i dont find it offending that a store owner promote its products in a friendly way, i appreciate it.

---

Too bad the OP didn't do it in a friendly way.

...Dres

[Sy Beck]

And would you like them all to come here with a story to promote their wares as well?

[Canoro Philipp]

@Dres I find it more friendly to engage in some conversation about their product before offering me a landmark than just throwing me the landmark out cold.

@Sy this is a free forum, speciially in General Discussions we can talk about mostly anything, Antumbra was here talking about the negative reaction she got from her adverising technique, and to verify the legality of it, which is a valid concern, if she calls our attention and make us want to know more about her products, that is a side effect.

merchants can come to the forums to get help about their concerns.

[Tari Landar]

---

Canoro Philipp wrote:

so what if Antumbra is being social with commercial intent?

i appreciate if a store owner smile at me while selling me the products, even offering a sample in a friendly way, instead of being all cold business with me.

we complain about reciving landmark offers without asking for them, and we do recieve them in many places we visit in SL, repeatedly, every single time we arrive, is offering a landmark when you arrive at some place spam, and therefore the owners of that place should be banned from SL?

different from those sim owners, that repetadly and without us asking for it, offer you a landmark, Antenumbra is offering it one time only, her way of advertising is less harmful and more friendly than just throwing you a landmark without even saying "hi".

i dont find it offending that a store owner promote its products in a friendly way, i appreciate it.

---

Banned? No, but it certainly isn't an appealing way when it's just handed to you without a friendly connection. It's also most definitely unsolicited spam(I wouldn't report it, or really act on it at all, but I can't change what it is, lol)  I too appreciate when merchants are friendly in their advertising, or offers. I'm just not sure if "do you like my outfit" directly followed by a lm offer, is what I would necessarily consider friendly. Now a chat to go along with it, before the lm is offered, sure. But, perhaps we define friendly in a different way.