Mesh clothing makers I beg of you

[Sephina Frostbite]

Please please make and option for smaller booties and a little bigger breast size. I love mesh clothing and I love my curves but the size of the curves on the butt are huge. I am not a phat azz lover (no offense to those who like it). I dont mind a butt with oomph but I dont want my butt to go on for days. Please add a little less hip and ass. Thank you. 

[Syo Emerald]

Finally someone says it! I had found a wonderful store with not so mainstream clothes and I thought it would be easier to get mesh clothes that are not made for women with the horsebutts....but wow, I could never been so wrong! Even their XS size had the bootie that couldn't be called average in most places of the world.

[Venus Petrov]

This is why I try demos first.  Not all mesh makers make asses as wide as horse trailers.

[Sassy Romano]

Well, just when we thought we had a deformer that worked (end of problem to a degree), Jedi Linden decided that was not the deformer that the customer was looking for and instead we have been offered a different deformation solution in the form of rigging to collision bones, where Bone Linden has added boob and butt and saddle bag bones.

However, this is going to be a clusterf**k of a mess because whereas with the originally created deformer by Qarl Fizz, anyone uploading mesh content could upgrade older mesh content and only needed to upload it again but with a check box selected to enable the deformer.

What we will have to do now is go right back to the beginning and re-weight each individual item and even then, the results are variable depending on the type of item.  Skirts?  Total pain.  In practice I doubt that many will do this, it's too much of a task per item if they have many items.  Also, the proliferation of low cost templates that have been so widely textured means that many who sell mesh content do not have the option to upload it and upgrade to a deformable solution.

So the practical situation that we will be in is that there will continue to be much mesh content that will be in standard sizes that assume that everyone has large boobs even for small avatars and they just get bigger and given the volume of template content, I rather suspect that the volume weighted items will be quite scarce.

[Sephina Frostbite]

Thanks for explaining Sassy and Syo I get that old templates can't be changed easily but the new stuff would be nice with options for smaller hips and butt and a little bigger bust. Im not talking huge but Id like to represent me in RL a little better and on my avi a larger bust looks fine. Sliders closer to 70 or even a little bigger. I get the trend that every one wants to be shorter. I conformed and may myself shorter because I was able to keep my shape. I am a little taller then Id say most woman and Shorter then most men. But this trend with huge hips and butt isn't for me. I absolutely DEMO.  I can wear a small usually well unless a dress and big hips and butt, then I have to go xs or xxs which makes my bust very small. Too small to be honest for me.  Sorry after hours of shopping I found very little that I personally could use. Not upset just a request. 

[Venus Petrov]

Yes, all of us are forced to conform in one way or the other to the standard sizes.  Unfortunate, but that is the way it is right now.  The alternative, of course, is to purchase non-mesh clothing.

[Sassy Romano]

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

Thanks for explaining Sassy and Syo I get that old templates can't be changed easily but the new stuff would be nice with options for smaller hips and butt and a little bigger bust

---

I hear you entirely, the problem is exactly how many variations would do it?  Someone wants slightly smaller bum, someone wants slightly bigger and so on, no matter what is done, each single one is a different edit and upload.  That's the point behind the deformer but as I said, that's another can of worms.

 

I offer a custom edit to fit for one of my items but only 2 people have ever taken that service which tells me that either the rest don't care and have adjusted their shape somewhat to accommodate sizing or they're not interested in the item after all.  It does cost extra to have custom fit because it's a hand edit of the mesh to your shape.

The best one i've seen so far is a mesh skirt with 17 different variations and that's just awesome. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

XS – EXTRA SMALL

• Body Fat: 5
• Torso Muscle: 31
• Breast Size: 48
• Love Handles: 25
• Belly Size: 2
• Leg Muscle: 45
• Butt Size: 34
• Saddle Bags: 30

- That's hardly a big rear. If you find it to be so, it might be your perceptions of a normal human body that are off.

But if you must, you can always wear XXS bottoms with some other size top:

XXS – Extra Extra Small

• Body Fat: 0
• Torso Muscle: 21
• Breast Size: 32
• Love Handles: 22
• Belly Size: 0
• Leg Muscle: 40
• Butt Size: 24
• Saddle Bags: 22

 

[Sassy Romano]

Except when it's a dress or similar

[Tari Landar]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

XS – EXTRA SMALL

• Body Fat: 5
• Torso Muscle: 31
• Breast Size: 48
• Love Handles: 25
• Belly Size: 2
• Leg Muscle: 45
• Butt Size: 34
• Saddle Bags: 30

- That's hardly a big rear. If you find it to be so, it might be your perceptions of a normal human body that are off.

But if you must, you can always wear XXS bottoms with some other size top:

XXS – Extra Extra Small

• Body Fat: 0
• Torso Muscle: 21
• Breast Size: 32
• Love Handles: 22
• Belly Size: 0
• Leg Muscle: 40
• Butt Size: 24
• Saddle Bags: 22

 

---

You may have the numbers here, but you're failing to realize that a LOT of mesh items are made to *look* like the butt, or boobs are either too big, or too small. That's the same problem I have had with things. Yes, changing the dials, sometimes things fit just fine and dandy. But the WAY the item is made, the butt looks huge(to some, including myself). The numbers don't really matter an iota when it's the design of the item itself that makes certain body parts look, well, not my style. Huge butts are a big problem for me too. A lot of bottoms, skirts, and dresses are made with a butt that sticks out much further than mine does. Sure I "fit" under it just fine, but that doesn't mean a big butt looks good on me, or that I'll like it.

I have the same problem with tops. I don't have small breasts in rl, I don't have small ones in sl either. But some designers seem to think they know "ideal"(not unlike rl of course-I can't say I blame them for that). Which means even when I change myself to fit, according to the dials, and the clothing fits just fine, the way it's made just seems so wrong *to me*. It doesn't look right *on me*. My chest isn't that small, and I don't want the design of a top to make it look like it is or should be(it's also not huge, which is the other extreme some people choose to go for). There isn't a whole lot of wiggle room, or even middle ground-regardless of the size and numbers used. Boobs and butt often "look" not proportioned correctly *to me*. So most mesh, is just not my style, even if I love the item and can get it to fit nicely. That doesn't necessarily mean it will still look ok, despite fitting. Just like in rl, some styles are not so flattering for all body shapes, even if the article "fits" by all standards.

But that is entirely because we don't have a good enough deformer to account for such things. As already, and better, described, what they're giving us, just opens up an entirely different set of problems, and doesn't actually address let alone solve, most of the problems people have.

[Kelli May]

---

Tari Landar wrote:

You may have the numbers here, but you're failing to realize that a LOT of mesh items are made to *look* like the butt, or boobs are either too big, or too small. That's the same problem I have had with things. Yes, changing the dials, sometimes things fit just fine and dandy. But the WAY the item is made, the butt looks huge(to some, including myself). The numbers don't really matter an iota when it's the design of the item itself that makes certain body parts look, well, not my style. Huge butts are a big problem for me too. A lot of bottoms, skirts, and dresses are made with a butt that sticks out much further than mine does. Sure I "fit" under it just fine, but that doesn't mean a big butt looks good on me, or that I'll like it.

I have the same problem with tops. I don't have small breasts in rl, I don't have small ones in sl either. But some designers seem to think they know "ideal"(not unlike rl of course-I can't say I blame them for that). Which means even when I change myself to fit, according to the dials, and the clothing fits just fine, the way it's made just seems so wrong *to me*. It doesn't look right *on me*. My chest isn't that small, and I don't want the design of a top to make it look like it is or should be(it's also not huge, which is the other extreme some people choose to go for). There isn't a whole lot of wiggle room, or even middle ground-regardless of the size and numbers used. Boobs and butt often "look" not proportioned correctly *to me*. So most mesh, is just not my style, even if I love the item and can get it to fit nicely. That doesn't necessarily mean it will still look ok, despite fitting. Just like in rl, some styles are not so flattering for all body shapes, even if the article "fits" by all standards.

But that is entirely because we don't have a good enough deformer to account for such things. As already, and better, described, what they're giving us, just opens up an entirely different set of problems, and doesn't actually address let alone solve, most of the problems people have.

---

Exactly. I have a medium frame by the 'Standard Sizing' model, and still find that some mesh clothing billows out beyond my butt.

Another problem is the height that some mesh is designed for. Mesh may conform to fit avatar height and limb length, but often it's designed for someone much taller. What might be a nicely curved tush on a tall avatar becomes a disproportionate bulge on someone shorter. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Tari Landar wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

XS – EXTRA SMALL

•  
• Leg Muscle: 45
• Butt Size: 34
• Saddle Bags: 30

- That's hardly a big rear. If you find it to be so, it might be your perceptions of a normal human body that are off.

But if you must, you can always wear XXS bottoms with some other size top:

XXS – Extra Extra Small

•  
• Leg Muscle: 40
• Butt Size: 24
• Saddle Bags: 22

 

---

You may have the numbers here, but you're failing to realize that a LOT of mesh items are made to *look* like the butt, or boobs are either too big, or too small.

---

I have a mesh clothing inventory in the multiple thousands of items now. I have seen that occur less than a handful of times.

I have pants, capris, shorts, leotards, undies, bikinis, harnesses, catsuits, dresses, gowns, skirts, corsets, armor, costumes, capes, cloaks, etc... Just about anything.

More often before I wear the alpha, a portion of my rear set to those numbers can be seen slightly coming through where it is mostly flush to the outfit.

For the general situation, you are imagining this. Exceptions are rare.

 

Further:

My avatar is 5'3" tall. Mesh clothes made using the 'standard size shapes' which are about 7' tall fit me just fine, and stretch to fit those tallers ones just fine (some of my furry forms go up there or above and still wear the same sizes).

- The very fact that a poster above me mentioned height tells me some of you are speaking without much actual experience in using. Mesh stretches with the height sliders. In fact it will already deform to every slider not on the list I put in my earlier post, except for those in the head, hands, feet, plus cleavage and breast gravity.

Some of you are just running around making stuff up because you're afraid, rather than actually looking. Its a bit like the paranoia on Fox News up in here sometimes... While it happens, its not common.

 

[Tari Landar]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

---

You may have the numbers here, but you're failing to realize that a LOT of mesh items are made to *look* like the butt, or boobs are either too big, or too small.

---

I have a mesh clothing inventory in the multiple thousands of items now.

I have seen that occur less than a handful of times.

I have pants, capris, shorts, leotards, undies, bikinis, harnesses, catsuits, dresses, gowns, skirts, corsets, armor, costumes, capes, cloaks, etc... Just about anything.

More often before I wear the alpha, a portion of my rear set to those numbers can be seen slightly coming through where it is mostly flush to the outfit.

For the general situation, you are imagining this. Exceptions are rare.

 

Further:

My avatar is 5'3" tall. Mesh clothes made using the 'standard size shapes' which are about 7' tall fit me just fine, and stretch to fit those tallers ones just fine (some of my furry forms go up there or above and still wear the same sizes).

- The very fact that a poster above me mentioned height tells me some of you are speaking without much actual experience in using. Mesh stretches with the height sliders. In fact it will already deform to every slider not on the list I put in my earlier post, except for those in the head, hands, feet, plus cleavage and breast gravity.

Some of you are just running around making stuff up because you're afraid, rather than actually looking. Its a bit like the paranoia on Fox News up in here sometimes... While it happens, its not common.

 

---

Umm, no, personal style has a lot more to do with things than you think. It has nothing to do with paranoia or making things up. To put it bluntly, my butt in rl is not a bubble butt. It does not stick out very much at all. In sl, I'd prefer it be the same, that's why I made it the same, lol. What YOU think looks great, others may not agree on. That really is the most simple way to put it.

The fact that you seem to think you know everything there is to know about mesh and anytime anyone has even the smallest issue with mesh, you start rambling on about the numbers, tells me a lot. I'm not going to say it tells me you know nothing, or very little, however, unlike you. You do know a lot about the numbers about standard sizing, and about bodfy proportions. I too, happen to know a lot...about what I like, what I think is ideal and what I think looks good on me and the shape I enjoy having in sl. I'm no more making up what I think looks good *on me*(I can't possibly emphasize that anymore than I have already-I don't speak for a general public, merely myself) than you are making up what you believe the standards and propper proportions are. I'm not sure why you feel the need to suggest that, lol.

I don't like bottoms of any sort that make my butt look bigger, or boobs smaller, than I'd like. I don't like it in rl. I don't like it in sl. My butt fits just fine in a lot of mesh clothes, without changing the dial. It actually fits under most mesh, without poking through(even pre-alpha), because I have a smaller butt than some of the size numbers suggest you need for that size. So, to have a butt in an article of clothing that actually sticks out, doesn't quite fit my body style. I am guessing, it doesn't fit others, either. It has nothing to do with setting my numbers in appearance to the right spots, they're fine. It has everything to do with how something looks once it's on-AFTER we can clearly see it fits the shape fine.

You have a butt that pokes through, without the alpha, so clearly we do not have the same kind of body style. I don't have that problem with a lot of things.

Not every style will suit everyone. I'm not sure why you have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with others who like those things(in this case, bigger butts, or smaller boobs). I say, whatever tickles your pickle. But it's not my style, and not likely something I would wear, even if it's made wonderfully and by all "standards" it actually fits my shape just fine. How something actually looks on me, to me(and to my hubby, because I trust his honest nature and his judgment, completely) does make a difference as to whether or not I'd buy it. Hence why I buy a LOT of demos, lol.

You don't need a mesh inventory in the thousands to see what does and does not look right on you. I'm not sure why you mention that, it doesn't much make a difference. It doesn't make your ideal styles any better, or worse, than mine. They're just different. You like what you like, I like what I like. Bigger butts and smaller boobs, don't fall on my list of likes. I do, as others have said, see a lot of creators that make things with those two attributes, and I don't like them. They're not my style and I really wish there was a more middle ground. Or, better yet, no reason for sizing at all and just have the mesh conform to the body properly based on whatever settings I put it at (but that's an entirely different can of worms, as we all know).

[Lunar Core]

And others realize that you are nothing more than a single user, assuming that your experience is the norm.

Newsflash Catnap, you're nothing more than a single user who likes to pretend that her experience is the norm.

It is not.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Lunar Core wrote:

And others realize that you are nothing more than a single user, assuming that your experience is the norm.

 

Newsflash Catnap, you're nothing more than a single user who likes to pretend that her experience is the norm.

 

It is not.

---

I can flip that back at you - and given how much mesh clothing is out there, and how often one sees it on the grid, I think I'd win this one.

With a mesh inventory in the thousands what I can tell better than you folks is what is normal for mesh items.

1. The height squish issue is a pure fiction. I have a 5'3" avatar and if it was true I'd not be able to wear any of my stuff. I have never encountered this problem.

2. The butt isssue is pretty rare. I've seen it on a small few items that built beyond what the shape was too. In a mult-thousand inventory, its less than a handful of the things I have.

3. I travel the grid a lot, and I visit a LOT of mesh shops. I see people in them from my height on up to the 7-8' giants, and I myself have a few giant shapes in my furry collection. The standard sizes are much more stretched tall than my shape - I have only very rarely seem someone not fitting into their mesh. And I've never seen it as a complaint in chat from those in these stores - where I have heard a number of other things voiced about style choices or getting conflicting props to work together.

4. If mesh couldn't handle different heights and shapes - it would not be doing so well.

5. Its always the same few people in the forums voicing the same complaints, and most of them claim to own very little mesh... Ie: they lack experience or perspective.

6. Flip through the popular fashion blogs and flickr groups these days. Mesh - seen pretty often, appears on a very wide array of different shapes of avatar. Again, if it couldn't handle this, the "fashionistas" - who are a lot more like some of you than they are like me - would not be using it so much in their artwork, and would not be blogging about its latest styles so often.

 

[Sephina Frostbite]

I usually don't care to be honest. Just recently I've had an issue finding clothing that weren't enlarge in the hips and butt area. Not complaining at all just making a request. Im glad you told me you to make customs clothing. Ill have to get in touch with you.

[Sephina Frostbite]

My perception is not off. I can show you the clothing I am talking about. One can even see that with the avis inworld that this is becoming common. I do have to wear the xs or xxs but my issue there is I become very small breast because they make the chest size smaller, I don't want the chest size smaller I want smaller hips and butt. Some clothing are not proportional which is okay. I am simply asking if they could add some with a smaller size butt and hip size when it comes to medium and up. With each mesh outfit I make a new shape body to fit that outfit. That isn't my issue.

EDIT to add: Leg muscles at 40 for a xxs or xs is not possible on a lot of dresses. In fact a few dresses I just bought I had to make my legs way to skinny. Not the dresses fault however that's sl sliders fault.

[Czari Zenovka]

I've never been a fan of mesh clothing, and Pussycat and I have had several rounds on this issue in the past so I don't mean to resurrect another one; however, my perception of what may be causing the big butt issue with mesh is what I call the "starched clothes" look.  I actually purchased one mesh skirt from a well-known, long-time designer because I liked the style and color and have another mesh outfit that I enjoy (a coat, boots & hat) from a hunt but they still have this "starched" issue which may be from how mesh is made.  What I mean is, the look of natural wrinkles, etc. in some of the mesh clothing I've seen & worn are made into the clothes in such a way that the items (usually skirts, coats, and some tops) look like they could stand on their own if not worn, like some over-starched shirts in RL.

I think this *could* be what contributes to the butt issue since some of the skirts & coats stand out a little distance from the avatar, regardless of the size.  I've tried on everything from a S-XL in the coat I have and the butt stays the same.  I see this same look in mesh crop tops - the top seems to protrude out a bit from the body, I'm assuming to have the look of the indentations, wrinkles, etc.

 

 

[Kelli May]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

Lunar Core wrote:

And others realize that you are nothing more than a single user, assuming that your experience is the norm.

 

Newsflash Catnap, you're nothing more than a single user who likes to pretend that her experience is the norm.

 

It is not.

---

I can flip that back at you - and given how much mesh clothing is out there, and how often one sees it on the grid, I think I'd win this one.

With a mesh inventory in the thousands what I can tell better than you folks is what is normal for mesh items.

1. The height squish issue is a pure fiction. I have a 5'3" avatar and if it was true I'd not be able to wear any of my stuff. I have never encountered this problem.

 ...

---

You win this one? Is there a competition? Who is judging? Are there prizes?

Just because you have never encountered something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You are taking your point of view and claiming it is everyone's. Please don't tell me my experience is fiction. 

 

 

[Sephina Frostbite]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

I've never been a fan of mesh clothing, and Pussycat and I have had several rounds on this issue in the past so I don't mean to resurrect another one; however, my perception of what may be causing the big butt issue with mesh is what I call the "starched clothes" look.  I actually purchased one mesh skirt from a well-known, long-time designer because I liked the style and color and have another mesh outfit that I enjoy (a coat, boots & hat) from a hunt but they still have this "starched" issue which may be from how mesh is made.  What I mean is, the look of natural wrinkles, etc. in some of the mesh clothing I've seen & worn are made into the clothes in such a way that the items (usually skirts, coats, and some tops) look like they could stand on their own if not worn, like some over-starched shirts in RL.

I think this *could* be what contributes to the butt issue since some of the skirts & coats stand out a little distance from the avatar, regardless of the size.  I've tried on everything from a S-XL in the coat I have and the butt stays the same.  I see this same look in mesh crop tops - the top seems to protrude out a bit from the body, I'm assuming to have the look of the indentations, wrinkles, etc.

 

 

---

I think that is also part of the issue as well. 

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

I can flip that back at you - and given how much mesh clothing is out there, and how often one sees it on the grid,

I think I'd win this one

.

---

I don't believe you would... simply because you fail to grasp the real reason why people find standard sized, non-deforming mesh so objectionable.  There is certainly a faction of SL mesh wearers who care little about what shape they wear, as long as it looks good with whatever they're wearing.  These are the type that change their shape and skin as if they were merely additional articles of clothing... I would guess that the fashionistas and bloggers which you've mention would mostly fall into this category.

Alternately, there are those who are very emotionally invested in the shape of their avatar, which includes the breast and butt's size and shape.  These are the ones that have spent hours upon hours (if not months and years), perfecting exactly the look that they wish to represent.  I agree that some minute modifications wouldn't necessarily detract from their overall look, but there are instances where a mesh is made which completely contradicts the shape to which they are so attached.  In which case, there's nothing that can be done except reject it altogether.  You seem to imply that a few slight modifications should be able to satisfy anyone wishing to wear mesh clothing... it won't.  You're simply wrong on the matter.

For example, most mens mesh pants that I've tried on are rather lacking in the back side.  Now, I've given my avatar an ass that could almost jump out and slap you in the face for a reason... no way am I wearing a pair of pants that make my avatar look as if it has nothing more than a pancake which defecates.  No readjustment of sliders is going to help that situation... therefore, I must pass on wearing most mesh pants.  Now, when I find a pair that gives me the look I'm accustomed to, I'll wear the crap out of them, because I freaking love mesh clothing... when they work for me.

You may want to work on your ability to empathize with those who do not share your exact experiences.

...Dres

[Tari Landar]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

Some of you are just running around making stuff up because you're afraid, rather than actually looking. Its a bit like the paranoia on Fox News up in here sometimes... While it happens, its not common.

 

---

I can site all kinds of products that I, do not personally like, for *me*. I don't like the way they make certain attributes of mine look-even though I don't need to change sliders to "make it fit". The end result is just something I don't like. That doesn't make them bad, it doesn't mean they're made *wrong(again, I never said ANY of it was made wrong, just not my style). It simply means, I do not like it. I don't believe for two seconds you like ALL designs in sl. Not everything will look the same on everyone, and not everything will even be a style everyone will like. Sort of like rl. It's not, yet another, topic on how mesh "doesn't fit". It's a topic discussing why certain things just don't look right, for certain people, on themselves.

The butt issue is not rare for all. It may be for you, but that is your experience, and not mine, clearly it's not others' either. I never said the butt sticks out a mile, or looks completely disproportionate altogether. It simply sticks out more than I'd like. You are confusing my opinion of what I'd like my butt to look like, with, well, I don't know what you're confusing it with, lol. The fact remains, I don't like the way the butt looks like in a lot of things.

Just like I don't like certain clothing styles. It's not the end of the world to say you don't like something. Nor is it some kind of blaspehmous statement made against mesh as a whole. It almost seems as if you take anything remotely not 100% positive about mesh, as some kind of personal attack because you've devoted so much time to mesh-which you clearly want known because you keep mentioning it over and over. Which, again I am sure you'll attribute to my perception being off entirely, because it's not *your* perception of how things should look.  Your perception of things look on you is no more right, or wrong, than my perception of how things look on me It's not paranoia to not like something, and I'm not quite sure why you seem to think it is.

I have some pants and dresses/skirts I absolutely love because the butt shape made into the mesh itself, actually mirrors my butt shape. It's a nice subtle round, without too wide of hips, and without sticking out too much. For now, I tend to stick with those. That doesn't mean I stop looking altogether. I still buy demos, I still try things out. When I find something I enjoy, I buy it. When I don't, I move on. But I suppose it's not worth going rounds over. My mileage just varies from yours. I can accept that.

[Knowl Paine]

---

Venus Petrov wrote:

This is why I try demos first.  Not all mesh makers make asses as wide as horse trailers.

---

 

:smileyvery-happy: horse trailer should be an official measure.

 

 

 

[Knowl Paine]

I bought some mesh boots, they didn't fit.

That's my mesh experience. It wasn't even my idea. I'm glad that they didn't fit. Stupid boots.

 

:smileyhappy:

[Sassy Romano]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

I think this *could* be what contributes to the butt issue since some of the skirts & coats stand out a little distance from the avatar, regardless of the size.  I've tried on everything from a S-XL in the coat I have and the butt stays the same.  I see this same look in mesh crop tops - the top seems to protrude out a bit from the body, I'm assuming to have the look of the indentations, wrinkles, etc.

 

 

---

If I can provide a little further input here as I suspect there's a more subtle reason and that's because rigged mesh is fixed in position such that each vertex making up the mesh has a defined position relative to the avatar.  The problem is that there is no layering as such and most people expect to wear something over something else.

As such, there has to be a little bit of room allowed such that if you're wearing a mesh skirt, an untucked mesh shirt needs to be bigger than the mesh skirt, which is itself already a bit bigger than the avatar so as to avoid clipping.

So there's a compound problem.  Now, if you wear system clothing jeans and that mesh shirt or coat (same issue), then there will be quite a gap and the item will appear to have quite large compared to the underlying avatar shape.

From this, it should be clear that despite standard sizing, there's simply no way to know just what else the avatar may be wearing and thus from a creation perspective, one cannot make directly to that standard size otherwise skirt and shirt would intersect in an odd fashion.  As a result, the creators challenge is to factor in a fudge, an offset that totally guesstimates just how much of an offset to choose.

This doesn't get any better with a deformer either because even if my skirt and shirt examples here were both deformable, there is no information in the deformation method to know how each is layered so this problem won't go away.

I usually just make mesh items for myself because that's the only way that I can decide for me, what i'm going to wear them with and how much room I leave in various places and there are still things that won't work as I would really like but it's something that has to be accepted.

Probably the most frustrating for me is mesh hair of which there is some that I like but much that I don't but being small boobed, the hair is made to "stand off" such that it fits above mesh clothing.  If I now wear a system top or nothing at all, i've got this mega sugar starched hair clumps standing away from my chest by a ridiculous amount.