Not good enough to volunteer

[Paul Hexem]

So, this was interesting, and I feel like sharing.

The story is harder to tell without naming names, but I'm gonna go for it anyway.

My friend is in a group that teaches how to build and texture and whatnot. Very large and popular group (which is why the response was so surprising). She complained to me that they don't teach many beginner level scripting or building classes.

So, I thought I'd volunteer. Help out. I went down to their sims, joined their groups, searched a little bit, and found no information on it. So, I asked in group, and got a single answer.

It was a polite enough response, but I saw right through that crap- I've worked customer service. I know a polite cover when I see one, and that was a polite cover for, "We don't have volunteers. We have instructors, and there's a long process to make sure we like you enough to be one of us".

I was blown off, and none of my follow up questions were answered. That's really surprising to me. The way the group operates, practically begging for donations, with unpaid "instructors", you'd think they'd be excited when someone offered to volunteer, not give a clique-ish response.

It's weird, and further reinforces what I keep saying. People don't actually want help, they just want to complain that no one will help them.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I can understand that they may want to screen volunteer teachers to make sure they have both the skills they are teaching and are good teachers.  After all, you can be an expert at something but be a lousy teacher because teaching is another set of skills all together. 

Even so, I agree it was a rude response.  The least the person responding could have done is to direct you to the person that is in charge of teachers so you could at talk to them about it and see what the process was.

If I were you, I'd send a notecard to the owner and tell them what happened.  They can't expect people with the skills they need to volunteer if that is the way they are treated.  If the owner blows you off, then you probably don't want to waste your time volunteering there anyway. 

I'd be interested to hear what happens if you do this, as I am pretty sure I know what group/school you are talking about.  People ask me all the time about learning to build.  If that organization operates that way I would reconsider recommending them as they apparently wouldn't be interested in getting the best teachers, only teachers that have connections to get in there.

If you are really interested in teaching a class there are other places you could volunteer.  You could also just have an independent class that you organize and advertise on your own.

[Astrid Kaufmat]

A movie that I watched many many many times, ,Gadget, people who offer skills for free are bannished, and sent to the edges of the world. This happens cause many sell what people like you and like me would do as free help.

There are people who have ideals that bring them to live like you( a way that fits my lifestyle too ) others who have other ideas.

Sadly ideals, idea and opinions are like the back hole we have where the sunbeam wouldn't kiss us (everybody got one).

I skilled up myself learning alone( guess why).

With scripting , cause of lack of good books and documentation free ( least for advanced stuff I am still working with it)

of course there is wiki but it lacks of organic organization and organic structure to drive you through a rational, scientific learning process made of right steps.

if you want a free broke student *raises hand*

 

[Paul Hexem]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I can understand that they may want to screen volunteer teachers to make sure they have both the skills they are teaching and are good teachers.  After all, you can be an expert at something but be a lousy teacher because teaching is another set of skills all together. 

Even so, I agree it was a rude response.  The least the person responding could have done is to direct you to the person that is in charge of teachers so you could at talk to them about it and see what the process was.

If I were you, I'd send a notecard to the owner and tell them what happened.  They can't expect people with the skills they need to volunteer if that is the way they are treated.  If the owner blows you off, then you probably don't want to waste your time volunteering there anyway. 

I'd be interested to hear what happens if you do this, as I am pretty sure I know what group/school you are talking about.  People ask me all the time about learning to build.  If that organization operates that way I would reconsider recommending them as

they apparently wouldn't be interested in getting the best teachers, only teachers that have connections to get in there.

If you are really interested in teaching a class there are other places you could volunteer.  You could also just have an independent class that you organize and advertise on your own.

---

Exactly the impression I got- only their friends can do the job.

But anyway, if you know other places, feel free to send me a message in world. Or in my feed. Or whatever.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I can understand that they may want to screen volunteer teachers to make sure they have both the skills they are teaching and are good teachers.  After all, you can be an expert at something but be a lousy teacher because teaching is another set of skills all together. 

Even so, I agree it was a rude response.  The least the person responding could have done is to direct you to the person that is in charge of teachers so you could at talk to them about it and see what the process was.

If I were you, I'd send a notecard to the owner and tell them what happened.  They can't expect people with the skills they need to volunteer if that is the way they are treated.  If the owner blows you off, then you probably don't want to waste your time volunteering there anyway. 

I'd be interested to hear what happens if you do this, as I am pretty sure I know what group/school you are talking about.  People ask me all the time about learning to build.  If that organization operates that way I would reconsider recommending them as

they apparently wouldn't be interested in getting the best teachers, only teachers that have connections to get in there.

If you are really interested in teaching a class there are other places you could volunteer.  You could also just have an independent class that you organize and advertise on your own.

---

Exactly the impression I got- only their friends can do the job.

But anyway, if you know other places, feel free to send me a message in world. Or in my feed. Or whatever.

---

But whatever you do, don't send him a notecard! 

[Paul Hexem]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I can understand that they may want to screen volunteer teachers to make sure they have both the skills they are teaching and are good teachers.  After all, you can be an expert at something but be a lousy teacher because teaching is another set of skills all together. 

Even so, I agree it was a rude response.  The least the person responding could have done is to direct you to the person that is in charge of teachers so you could at talk to them about it and see what the process was.

If I were you, I'd send a notecard to the owner and tell them what happened.  They can't expect people with the skills they need to volunteer if that is the way they are treated.  If the owner blows you off, then you probably don't want to waste your time volunteering there anyway. 

I'd be interested to hear what happens if you do this, as I am pretty sure I know what group/school you are talking about.  People ask me all the time about learning to build.  If that organization operates that way I would reconsider recommending them as

they apparently wouldn't be interested in getting the best teachers, only teachers that have connections to get in there.

If you are really interested in teaching a class there are other places you could volunteer.  You could also just have an independent class that you organize and advertise on your own.

---

Exactly the impression I got- only their friends can do the job.

But anyway, if you know other places, feel free to send me a message in world. Or in my feed. Or whatever.

---

But whatever you do, don't send him a notecard! 

---

Damn right!

A Martian never forgets?

[Czari Zenovka]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I can understand that they may want to screen volunteer teachers to make sure they have both the skills they are teaching and are good teachers.  After all, you can be an expert at something but be a lousy teacher because teaching is another set of skills all together. 

 

---

My immediate thought was along these lines.  Being an effective teacher/instructor is definitely a separate skill set.

@Gadget - Here is my RL experience re: something similar:

Keep in mind this was back in the 80's when the personal PC was still very new.  One basically had to know enough DOS to power up the PC, and then learn the application software. I had background experience in outside sales which led to being hired in this capacity by a franchise store that sold the IBM Personal Computers (at a cost of $7500 without the monitor).  I attended training classes, etc. but eventually realized why I had gotten out of sales.

A friend of mine was teaching computer application software as an Adjunct Professor at a Jr. College in the adult education division.  People who had purchased these new contraptions were signing up in droves to learn how to use them.  The college also provided contract classes to train the employees of major companies.  My friend kept trying to get me to apply and the pay was excellent - $20.00/hr. - and again, this was in the mid-80's.  I protested saying I didn't have enough PC knowledge to teach.  She responded that I had the teaching skills and I could at least teach the "Introduction to PC" classes. 

I finally applied and, during the interview, my soon-to-be supervisor said something I have never forgotten:  "Since this is part-time work and the pay is good, we get people applying who have Ph.D's in computer science but they cannot relate to our average adult student; they talk way over their heads.  I would rather hire someone who may know less but can relay that knowledge in an understandable, interesting manner."  I ended up teaching there for 12 years (continuing to increase the classes that I could teach) and was chosen as the "demo" instructor when the college was bidding for the Walt Disney University contract.  We won the contract and I was asked to be the lead instructor.

None of that was meant as bragging, but a RL experience that illustrates what could be at play here.  I also taught for a time in SL during my first two years.  I also took a LOT of classes and noticed that the various SL schools tended to have different "personalities."  One school wanted their instructors to be "peppy" and encourage the students to enter contests, for example.  The school that I taught with wanted mature, professional instructors, preferably with a background of RL teaching experience.  I had several long interviews, was required to submit a resume that indicated past teaching experience, was assigned a mentor, had to attend X number of classes where I "shadowed" my mentor, until I finally taught my first class  (another requirement was the instructors had to write their own classes) with my mentor, the school owner, and several other faculty attending.  I was critiqued and after all that...approximately 4 months, was able to schedule & teach classes without supervision.

I'm sorry you had the rude experience for which there is no excuse, but, based on the above experiences, I can understand the thinking behind it.

[Senobia Xenga]

I think I know which group you're talking about and the non-response is NOT surprising to me...a long time member of said group. (If it's the one I'm thinking of....)

In their defense, the owners of the sim/group rarely participate in chat so they don't know the extent of the piss poor people skills that are encountered there.

My advice would to be go to them directly and inquire. They have been nothing, but super nice, helpful and friendly when I've contacted them outside of the group.

[Paul Hexem]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I can understand that they may want to screen volunteer teachers to make sure they have both the skills they are teaching and are good teachers.  After all, you can be an expert at something but be a lousy teacher because teaching is another set of skills all together. 

 

---

My immediate thought was along these lines.  Being an effective teacher/instructor is definitely a separate skill set.

@Gadget - Here is my RL experience re: something similar:

Keep in mind this was back in the 80's when the personal PC was still very new.  One basically had to know enough DOS to power up the PC, and then learn the application software. I had background experience in outside sales which led to being hired in this capacity by a franchise store that sold the IBM Personal Computers (at a cost of $7500 without the monitor).  I attended training classes, etc. but eventually realized why I had gotten out of sales.

A friend of mine was teaching computer application software as an Adjunct Professor at a Jr. College in the adult education division.  People who had purchased these new contraptions were signing up in droves to learn how to use them.  The college also provided contract classes to train the employees of major companies.  My friend kept trying to get me to apply and the pay was excellent - $20.00/hr. - and again, this was in the mid-80's.  I protested saying I didn't have enough PC knowledge to teach.  She responded that I had the teaching skills and I could at least teach the "Introduction to PC" classes. 

I finally applied and, during the interview, my soon-to-be supervisor said something I have never forgotten:  "Since this is part-time work and the pay is good, we get people applying who have Ph.D's in computer science but they cannot relate to our average adult student; they talk way over their heads.  I would rather hire someone who may know less but can relay that knowledge in an understandable, interesting manner."  I ended up teaching there for 12 years (continuing to increase the classes that I could teach) and was chosen as the "demo" instructor when the college was bidding for the Walt Disney University contract.  We won the contract and I was asked to be the lead instructor.

None of that was meant as bragging, but a RL experience that illustrates what could be at play here.  I also taught for a time in SL during my first two years.  I also took a LOT of classes and noticed that the various SL schools tended to have different "personalities."  One school wanted their instructors to be "peppy" and encourage the students to enter contests, for example.  The school that I taught with wanted mature, professional instructors, preferably with a background of RL teaching experience.  I had several long interviews, was required to submit a resume that indicated past teaching experience, was assigned a mentor, had to attend X number of classes where I "shadowed" my mentor, until I finally taught my first class  (another requirement was the instructors had to write their own classes) with my mentor, the school owner, and several other faculty attending.  I was critiqued and after all that...approximately 4 months, was able to schedule & teach classes without supervision.

I'm sorry you had the rude experience for which there is no excuse, but, based on the above experiences, I can understand the thinking behind it.

---

I see where you're coming from, but here's where it flops; I wasn't even asked my skillset. I wasn't asked what I'd want to volunteer to do, I wasn't put on the spot for my teaching skills or knowledge. I wasn't screened at all.

We skipped everything you just said and jumped right to "You're not in our clique, so you're probably not good enough."

The conversation was basically

"Hey, I'd like to volunteer to help out."

"We have an extensive process and we don't take everyone."

"So you're not looking for any volunteers at all?"

Ignored.

[nijushrestha]

            voulunteering is a vvery good jodb in any areas . volunteer hwlps to solve many problem in tinme but there are some people who do not like to be hleped . It may be because they are not habitual in getting help or they whant show that they are able enogh to do their work.

 

[nijushrestha]

keeping book ideal at home is not gona help yuo any more . it only may be the waste of space but instead if you give them away the it is really gana help for the one who needa it.

 

[Ren Toxx]

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

"We have an extensive process and we don't take everyone."

"So you're not looking for any volunteers at all?"

---

Your answer there seems to me a bit of a jump into (negative) conclussions, Gadget, and while I agree that theirs didn't sound any friendlier, if you're truly interested in something it's always good practice to develop a bit of a thick skin when trying to achieve it; a more logical follow-up would've been: “Ok. So how do I begin this extensive process?”. Maybe even add the good old courtesy “please” word, since in that context you were essentially asking for information (and maybe to someone who wasn't, in fact, the person responsible for providing it).

I'll agree that you shouldn't have to jump through too many hoops, especially for something like volunteering... but the opposite is also true: you shouldn't be discouraged too easily :smileywink:

[Jasmin Helstein]

You only had one short discussion in group chat with one person that probably didn't know you and then it's easy to misunderstand someone. "You're not in our clique, so you're probably not good enough." seems such an unlikely thing to say, even if that's what the other person was thinking. I wouldn't feel so strongly about it.

I can imagine they don't get exited just because someone claims to be able to fill a gap. If they don't know you what reason could they have to let you try anyway ? They don't know if you will be a good teacher, someone should take the time to see  how you are doing, maybe you will quit after two or three attempts, you would probably have to be fitted in a schedule at the expense of someone else's time. So volunteer or not it would require time and effort from them as well.

If you really want to teach you may get to know the group a little better first and let them get to know you better as well.

[Paul Hexem]

---

Ren Toxx wrote:

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

"We have an extensive process and we don't take everyone."

"So you're not looking for any volunteers at all?"

---

Your answer there seems to me a bit of a jump into (negative) conclussions, Gadget, and while I agree that theirs didn't sound any friendlier, if you're truly interested in something it's always good practice to develop a bit of a thick skin when trying to achieve it; a more logical follow-up would've been: 

“Ok. So how do I begin this extensive process?”

. Maybe even add the good old courtesy 

“please”

word, since in that context you were essentially asking for information (and maybe to someone who wasn't, in fact, the person responsible for providing it).

I'll agree that you shouldn't have to jump through too many hoops, especially for something like volunteering... but the opposite is also true: you shouldn't be discouraged too easily :smileywink:

---

You're missing the point (And yes, they were responsible for providing it- I asked to talk to the person responsible for providing that sort of information, and they stepped up).

 

---

Jasmin Helstein wrote:

You only had one short discussion in group chat with one person that probably didn't know you and then it's easy to misunderstand someone. "You're not in our clique, so you're probably not good enough." seems such an unlikely thing to say, even if that's what the other person was thinking. I wouldn't feel so strongly about it.

I can imagine they don't get exited just because someone claims to be able to fill a gap. If they don't know you what reason could they have to let you try anyway ? They don't know if you will be a good teacher, someone should take the time to see  how you are doing, maybe you will quit after two or three attempts, you would probably have to be fitted in a schedule at the expense of someone else's time. So volunteer or not it would require time and effort from them as well.

If you really want to teach

you may get to know the group a little better first and let them get to know you better as well.

---

Except I don't. You're not only missing the point, you're making up totally random ones. And ignoring previous replies in the thread.

Here's my reply for both of you;

This is not a case of me wanting to fulfill my lifelong dream of teaching. This is not me wanting to take over a position in this place. I was told they need help, so I wandered over to check it out when I got free time. This is not some strong desire of mine that I want to fulfill. When I got to the sim, they had signs up and tip jars out, BEGGING for help. They have affiliate vendors everywhere, with crap saying all proceeds pay for the sim, and it's non-profit, yadda yadda. So, I shrugged and decided to be a nice guy and offer help.

The response I got was to f-off, because I'm not good enough. And that's fine, I simple won't help. It's not my loss. Doesn't bother me at all. I'm still in script help groups, and people can still come to me anyway. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing.

What it did do was it surprised me, considering all the begging they're doing on their sim. They're begging for help, then they blow you off when your help isn't in the form of cash. That gives me insight into the group's attitude and I thought other people should know about it.

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

It was a polite enough response

---

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

The response I got was to f-off, because I'm not good enough.

---

This kind of exaggeration is silly.

[Syle Devin]

If your not trying to discourage anyone from going to that sim or anything of the likes than what good does it do to focus on the "rejection"? From the souds of what was actually said, and not what you assumed was said, they didn't even say no. They just said it was hard. If you took that as a "no chance" then that isn't their fault. As others said sometimes you have to get to know people before you try to join in on what they do. If you realy want to volunteer for the group then you should try a different tactic. Just my two cents.

[Paul Hexem]

Yeah, but it drives home a point.

[Paul Hexem]

They said it was hard, then put me on ignore. That's an odd response for a group begging for help, isn't it?

[Jasmin Helstein]

I could have added "and if you don't then don't" to my last sentence but that wouldn't have changed the meaning of my words would it ?

All I said really was that you had one short response from one complete stranger in group chat and that under those conditions it is easy to misunderstand someone. Besides ... just a few words from one stranger do not reflect the doings of the entire group. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

Yeah, but it drives home a point.

---

Is your point that your sense of pride is more important than providing new users with an organised location at which to learn skills?

Or is it that you can denigrate these volunteers as much as you like, because they 'clearly' don't want help?

When you push your own assumptions to the limit in order to discredit someone elses behaviour with obvious moral repurcussions (volunteers telling people to f-off, how very dare they!), you do any point that you might have a severe disservice. There's a lot of assumptions that could be made about this thread, all of them negative (at least, the ones I can find). It wouldn't be very fair of me to push those to the realms of ridiculousness and then make statements about your character.

[Paul Hexem]

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

Yeah, but it drives home a point.

---

Is your point that your sense of pride is more important than providing new users with an organised location at which to learn skills?

Or is it that you can denigrate these volunteers as much as you like, because they 'clearly' don't want help?

---

I think I see what's going on here... You're getting defensive because I'm bashing this supposedly helpful group aren't you?

[Paul Hexem]

---

Jasmin Helstein wrote:

I could have added "and if you don't then don't" to my last sentence but that wouldn't have changed the meaning of my words would it ?

 

All I said really was that you had

one

short response from

one

complete stranger in group chat and that under those conditions it is easy to misunderstand someone. Besides ... just a few words from one stranger do not reflect the doings of the entire group. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

---

Except it wasn't some complete random stranger. It was a member of management acting as a spokesperson for the group, that stepped up after I asked for someone in charge. Guess what? When they put on that manager title and stepped up to my inquiry, yes. They were reflecting the entire group.

[Qie Niangao]

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

They said it was hard, then put me on ignore. That's an odd response for a group begging for help, isn't it?

---

(Sorry, I have a newbie question to start: How do you find out when they put you on ignore?)

A couple posts earlier you said:

"When I got to the sim, they had signs up and tip jars out, BEGGING for help. They have affiliate vendors everywhere, with crap saying all proceeds pay for the sim, and it's non-profit, yadda yadda. So, I shrugged and decided to be a nice guy and offer help."

I don't know this group or their situation, but just from reading this thread, I can imagine that the help they need might be strictly financial--they may not have revenue enough to support the classes they currently offer, and if that were the case, it may well be that yet another instructor of yet another class could be the very last thing they need.

In RL, a lot of non-profits basically put up with volunteers because it makes people feel good, but what they really need is money to pay the rent. The volunteers save the non-profit a bit of money (and prevent them from offering an entry-level job to the unemployed), but mostly the hope is that those volunteers will be motivated to donate some cash, please God, before the power gets cut off.

(For all I know, however, the "begging for help" signs here may be explicitly asking for volunteer instructors, in which case forget all that.)

[Paul Hexem]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

They said it was hard, then put me on ignore. That's an odd response for a group begging for help, isn't it?

---

(Sorry, I have a newbie question to start: How do you find out when they put you on ignore?)

A couple posts earlier you said:

"When I got to the sim, they had signs up and tip jars out, 

BEGGING

 for help. They have affiliate vendors everywhere, with crap saying all proceeds pay for the sim, and it's non-profit, yadda yadda. So, I shrugged and decided to be a nice guy and offer help."

I don't know this group or their situation, but just from reading this thread, I can imagine that the help they need might be strictly financial--they may not have revenue enough to support the classes they currently offer, and if that were the case, it may well be that yet another instructor of yet another class could be the very last thing they need.

In RL, a lot of non-profits basically put up with volunteers because it makes people feel good, but what they really need is money to pay the rent. The volunteers save the non-profit a bit of money (and prevent them from offering an entry-level job to the unemployed), but mostly the hope is that those volunteers will be motivated to donate some cash, please God, before the power gets cut off.

(For all I know, however, the "begging for help" signs here may be explicitly asking for volunteer instructors, in which case forget all that.)

---

I don't know if the person actually put me on ignore, or just plain ignored my IMs. It's the same result. I had follow up questions, and none were answered.

You could be right about the rest of that. It would make sense. Although if that were the case, I would have preferred they said that, instead of making a forced "polite" answer. There's nothing wrong with saying "We got enough help, give us cash, there's costs here."

[Paul Hexem]

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

Gadget Portal wrote:

Yeah, but it drives home a point.

---

Is your point that your sense of pride is more important than providing new users with an organised location at which to learn skills?

Or is it that you can denigrate these volunteers as much as you like, because they 'clearly' don't want help?

When you push

your own assumptions

to the limit in order to discredit someone elses behaviour with obvious moral repurcussions (volunteers telling people to f-off, how very dare they!), you do any point that you might have a severe disservice. There's a lot of assumptions that could be made about this thread, all of them negative (at least, the ones I can find). It wouldn't be very fair of me to push those to the realms of ridiculousness and then make statements about your character.

---

Updated post deserves updated response.

I'm not denigrating all the volunteers of that group. I'm sure there are good people there. What I'm saying is a spokesperson for the group blew off and ignored a potential volunteer. I'm not assuming- that DID happen. I just phrase it a lot less politely. Ether way, this reflects poorly on the group, and considering what the group does, it's a surprising response to get.

If you read one of the first few responses this thread got, you'll see it's not an isolated incident, either.

Further, I don't care if people make negative assumptions about this thread. I'm a jerk, I swear too much, I'm angry and bitter, I'm whining about nothing, whatever you want. I can do that. I'm an individual expressing my opinion. It's my god given right to look like a douche bag. However, as soon as I'm representing a group or a workplace, all this goes away and I change my tune, because I know my actions will reflect on the group, and I do what's best for not only the image of the group, but also what's best for the group's needs.

This person had no problem making the group look bad, and since this person was trusted to be in charge, well.. It speaks volumes towards how the group is run.