Bernie Shippe Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Phil Deakins wrote: You are totally wrong. If you were to copy something that you don't have permission to copy, you'd have two instances of the thing but you'd only have paid for one. That's theft. If you have two instances but you'd only paid for one, the seller will have lost a sale. I've always sold my furniture with the mod and transfer permissions, but never with the copy permission, and there is a very good reason for that. Many people rent out furnished homes and, if they could pay for one couch, for instance, and make copies to put in all their homes, I would have sold just one couch but the buyer would be using many of them. And that's not very fair, is it? If you bought a couch from me, made a copy of it and put one in each of two rooms, you'd be getting two for the price of one, and that wouldn't be very fair to me, would it? even though you didn't sell or give away either instance of the item. There are reasons why sellers set permissions on their stuff, and circumventing those permission is wrong and often theft. If you circumvent the permissions, and you end up with two copies of an item, even if one of them never leaves your inventory, you'd be a thief, and you'd deserve to be punished as a thief. If an item isn't exactly what you want, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. nope. there's a difference between multiple copies in inventory and multiple copies rezzed. i buy your couch. i break the perms. i keep a copy of the original because i don't trust LLs inventory and i want the original to go back to in case i mess something up. i make a copy and shrink and fudge with it to make it the way i want. i rez and use one instance. you think that makes me a theif. well good for you, but i frankly don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Shippe Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Phil Deakins wrote: Just a quick reply... If the desired colour/pattern isn't offered, don't buy it. It's not a justification for circumventing the permissions. Just out of interest... Some of my furniture is sold in fixed colours or fixed textures, and they are priced at a certain amount. I also do the same items in colour/texture-changing versions that are priced a little higher. if the color/pattern i want is offered in the color/texture changing version, i'd buy that one. if it's not (and i can't find a suitable product elsewhere), then i'd buy either the fixed or changing one depending on what interested me. then if i could break the perms i would to change it to what i wanted. don't like people owning your products? don't sell products. but, like i said before, i never used and never will use copybot since it's way too risky so it's all hypothetical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Levenque Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Bernie Shippe wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: Just a quick reply... If the desired colour/pattern isn't offered, don't buy it. It's not a justification for circumventing the permissions. Just out of interest... Some of my furniture is sold in fixed colours or fixed textures, and they are priced at a certain amount. I also do the same items in colour/texture-changing versions that are priced a little higher. if the color/pattern i want is offered in the color/texture changing version, i'd buy that one. if it's not (and i can't find a suitable product elsewhere), then i'd buy either the fixed or changing one depending on what interested me. then if i could break the perms i would to change it to what i wanted. don't like people violating the permissions under which you sold your products? don't sell products to me. FIFY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 You can rationalize all you want. You agreed to the TOS when you created your account and no matter what you think you can't now decide some of it doesn't apply to you. Copybot is banned from SL. If you use copybot or ANY copy tool that circumvents the permissions you are a thief and can be banned for it period. If you just want to make a copy of something that is legal to copy you can easily enough. There is no need to use copybot for any legitimate reason. If you don't like the fact that you can't mod something, don't buy it. Buy something that allows you to mod it. Merchants don't want you as a customer at all if you are not going to respect their user license and the permissoin system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Bernie Shippe wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: You are totally wrong. If you were to copy something that you don't have permission to copy, you'd have two instances of the thing but you'd only have paid for one. That's theft. If you have two instances but you'd only paid for one, the seller will have lost a sale. I've always sold my furniture with the mod and transfer permissions, but never with the copy permission, and there is a very good reason for that. Many people rent out furnished homes and, if they could pay for one couch, for instance, and make copies to put in all their homes, I would have sold just one couch but the buyer would be using many of them. And that's not very fair, is it? If you bought a couch from me, made a copy of it and put one in each of two rooms, you'd be getting two for the price of one, and that wouldn't be very fair to me, would it? even though you didn't sell or give away either instance of the item. There are reasons why sellers set permissions on their stuff, and circumventing those permission is wrong and often theft. If you circumvent the permissions, and you end up with two copies of an item, even if one of them never leaves your inventory, you'd be a thief, and you'd deserve to be punished as a thief. If an item isn't exactly what you want, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. nope. there's a difference between multiple copies in inventory and multiple copies rezzed. i buy your couch. i break the perms. i keep a copy of the original because i don't trust LLs inventory and i want the original to go back to in case i mess something up. i make a copy and shrink and fudge with it to make it the way i want. i rez and use one instance. you think that makes me a theif. well good for you, but i frankly don't care. Ok, you don't mind being a thief. I can't argue with that. As I said in the post that you quoted, if an item isn't exactly what you want (in this case, if it's no copy) don't buy it. It's perfectly simple. Or you could ask the seller to sell you a 'copy' version and perhaps offer more for it. But if you buy a 'no copy' item and circumvent the permisiions so that you can copy it, and then you do copy it, you're a thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Bernie Shippe wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: Just a quick reply... If the desired colour/pattern isn't offered, don't buy it. It's not a justification for circumventing the permissions. Just out of interest... Some of my furniture is sold in fixed colours or fixed textures, and they are priced at a certain amount. I also do the same items in colour/texture-changing versions that are priced a little higher. if the color/pattern i want is offered in the color/texture changing version, i'd buy that one. if it's not (and i can't find a suitable product elsewhere), then i'd buy either the fixed or changing one depending on what interested me. then if i could break the perms i would to change it to what i wanted. don't like people owning your products? don't sell products. I do like people owning my products. That's why I sell them. You've got it the wrong way round. It should be, "don't like something about the product? Don't buy it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Czari Zenovka wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: MyAlt4099 wrote: If I were to copybot something and not sell it, I am not depriving the creator of anything. Not even a sale they otherwise would have made, since I'd still need to buy the item to copy it. I've always sold my furniture with the mod and transfer permissions, but never with the copy permission, and there is a very good reason for that. Many people rent out furnished homes and, if they could pay for one couch, for instance, and make copies to put in all their homes, I would have sold just one couch but the buyer would be using many of them. And that's not very fair, is it? If you bought a couch from me, made a copy of it and put one in each of two rooms, you'd be getting two for the price of one, and that wouldn't be very fair to me, would it? even though you didn't sell or give away either instance of the item. There are reasons why sellers set permissions on their stuff, and circumventing those permission is wrong and often theft. If you circumvent the permissions, and you end up with two copies of an item, even if one of them never leaves your inventory, you'd be a thief, and you'd deserve to be punished as a thief. If an item isn't exactly what you want, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. Thank you for posting this, Phil. I have wrestled with copy vs transfer for my furnishings. When I first started selling my items, I made them mod/trans because, as a customer, I liked being able to give an item to someone else if I didn't want it anymore or *coughs* held a yard sale. Then I started hearing people in the forums complain about trying to mod an item and essentially "breaking" it or not being able to get it like they want and stating that if an item is sold as mod, it should be sold as copy so a fresh version is always available. I then did a small survey here in the forums to see if people preferred mod/copy or mod/trans and if a home furnishing item was mod/copy would they pay more for it than a mod/trans. The responses were mixed. With the asset server sometimes "eating" inventory, I like having a copy of anything I purchase tucked away so I sold my items mod/copy The copy vs trans "debate" is still stuck in my head, however. The reasons you mentioned above are what plays into leaning toward trans perms. Especially for the low prices of my products, I think going back to mod/trans is prudent for me. I never had to debate the copy / trans issue when I started to sell furniture because, at the time, I had a skybox rental business and selling the furniture was just a little sideline. So I was well aware of the potential of selling one sofa, for instance, to one person, and copies of it ending up in dozens of rental homes. So I've never sold anything in my store with the copy permission. Actually, that's not totally true. I do sell a cushion that's copy. I often got people in the home rental business asking for copy items, and they offered 2 or 3 times the normal price, but I never did it. Instead I offered quantity discounts - 20% for 5+, 25% for 10+, and a third off for 20+. That satisfied most of them. When people have tried to modify something, and made a mess of it, I've always helped them out, either by doing it right for them or by replacing the item. That doesn't happen very often though and when it does happen, it's usually that they've tried to texture something else and accidentally textured the item instead and I just need to put the original texture back. I don't think I've ever had anyone get in touch because the item was 'eaten' by the system. People do get in touch when they think they've lost things because they don't know about coalesced objects, and I've always helped them to recover stuff. So, in all the years I've been selling furniture, the fact that it's no copy has never been even a slightly significant problem. Furniture is not like some other stuff, such as clothes. Selling clothes with the copy/no trans permissions is fine because one avatar can't wear 2 instances of the same dress simultaneously, but multiple copies of a piece of furniture can be used simultaneously and, in some cases, a great many copies of it would be used simultaneously. ETA: Some years ago I made and sold a temp rezzer. It demonstrated itself in the store by rezzing various sets of furniture in a living room situation. But temp rezzers for furniture need the furniture to have the copy permission, and I didn't sell any copy furniture. For some time, I debated in my head about that and eventually stopped seliing the temp rezzer, because it was silly that a furniture store didn't sell any furniture that was suitable for the temp rezzer, especially since the rezzer was demoing with furniture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you? Admitting that you would use a copybot viewer to break the perms on something if you felt like it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Shippe Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Dillon Levenque wrote: Bernie Shippe wrote: don't like people violating the permissions under which you sold your products? don't sell products to me. FIFY i'll grant you your ip rights. obviously, me buying your product doesn't automatically give me ownership of your designs and other ip. i'll also grant you certain copy restrictions because of the digital nature of second life. what i don't grant you is the right to tell me i can't mod, tweak, or in any way customize *my* item that *i* bought and that *i now own*. as far as i'm concerned, now you're infringing my rights as a consumer. law, tos, permissions system, eula - all be damned. so, to fify your fify - want to violate your customer's rights? don't sell products to me. i'd rather not support your business. btw, that doesn't mean i think all merchants who uncheck modify are infringing my rights. i know that no-mod is used to help stop copying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Shippe Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: You can rationalize all you want. You agreed to the TOS when you created your account and no matter what you think you can't now decide some of it doesn't apply to you. Copybot is banned from SL. If you use copybot or ANY copy tool that circumvents the permissions you are a thief and can be banned for it period. If you just want to make a copy of something that is legal to copy you can easily enough. There is no need to use copybot for any legitimate reason. If you don't like the fact that you can't mod something, don't buy it. Buy something that allows you to mod it. Merchants don't want you as a customer at all if you are not going to respect their user license and the permissoin system. ah yes, the easy road. "it"'s against the rules and if you do "it" (doesn't matter what "it" actually is) that makes you a horrible terrible person. i remind you that i said i don't use copybot or recommend that anyone do. all this is really just hypothetical what if i were to buy a car. it's copy, no mod, no trans. it looks great but drives poorly. as it is i can remove scripts but not add my own. say i figure out a way to bust perms with an exploit or whatever. i remove their scripts and add my own. now it looks great and drives great. i keep it all to myself never giving or selling it. am i a theif? am i a horrible person? to you and anyone else - if you think so, ban me from your store. you don't want me as a customer and i don't want you as a merchant. "win-win" but i tell you what. just keep thinking to yourself that bernie would use copybot if he could and that makes him a bad person. don't you dare think about the possibility that someone might use the program in a way that's not at all harmful to anyone. that requires too much work and imagination and creates confusion. just stick with against the rules equals bad. that will keep life simple for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Shippe Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Phil Deakins wrote: Ok, you don't mind being a thief. I can't argue with that. As I said in the post that you quoted, if an item isn't exactly what you want (in this case, if it's no copy) don't buy it. It's perfectly simple. Or you could ask the seller to sell you a 'copy' version and perhaps offer more for it. But if you buy a 'no copy' item and circumvent the permisiions so that you can copy it, and then you do copy it, you're a thief. whoosh. totally missing the point. it's not about "copying"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Shippe Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Phil Deakins wrote: I do like people owning my products. That's why I sell them. You've got it the wrong way round. It should be, "don't like something about the product? Don't buy it." naw, you've got it wrong. don't like something about the product (and nothing else comes as close to exactly what you want but you know how to fix it)? buy it and then mod it to fit your needs. in your world you don't get my money. in my world you do. but if you don't want my money, ban me. i'm ok with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Shippe Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 that's a mighty large graphic you got there. your message must be extra special important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Phil Deakins wrote: MyAlt4099 wrote: If I were to copybot something and not sell it, I am not depriving the creator of anything. Not even a sale they otherwise would have made, since I'd still need to buy the item to copy it. You are totally wrong. If you were to copy something that you don't have permission to copy, you'd have two instances of the thing but you'd only have paid for one. That's theft. If you have two instances but you'd only paid for one, the seller will have lost a sale. I've always sold my furniture with the mod and transfer permissions, but never with the copy permission, and there is a very good reason for that. Many people rent out furnished homes and, if they could pay for one couch, for instance, and make copies to put in all their homes, I would have sold just one couch but the buyer would be using many of them. And that's not very fair, is it? If you bought a couch from me, made a copy of it and put one in each of two rooms, you'd be getting two for the price of one, and that wouldn't be very fair to me, would it? even though you didn't sell or give away either instance of the item. There are reasons why sellers set permissions on their stuff, and circumventing those permission is wrong and often theft. If you circumvent the permissions, and you end up with two copies of an item, even if one of them never leaves your inventory, you'd be a thief, and you'd deserve to be punished as a thief. If an item isn't exactly what you want, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. I understand how the choices in the permissions is designed to protect copyrights and the owner thereof. When it comes to items made with 'objects' they break down into two categories for the consumer: Wearables and Rezzables. It becomes sometimes very frustrating for the consumer. In your instance, with your furniture, you are right. A Landlord could rez a thousand copies of your couch in all of their rentals. But wearables, that is clothing, is another issue. There is a greater need to be able to Mod in order to get an accurate fit, which also means I have a greater need to have a back up copy in case I break something. But even then the potential for abuse exists. I wore the same freebie full perm boots for several years. I modded them to my liking and now have several different pairs I retextured with different snakeskin textures. I really do wish I knew a solution that could make every one happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Bernie Shippe wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: I do like people owning my products. That's why I sell them. You've got it the wrong way round. It should be, "don't like something about the product? Don't buy it." naw, you've got it wrong. don't like something about the product (and nothing else comes as close to exactly what you want but you know how to fix it)? buy it and then mod it to fit your needs. in your world you don't get my money. in my world you do. but if you don't want my money, ban me. i'm ok with that. Now you're being very silly. I never did want your money but I never had any reason to ban you. If you don't find exactly what you're looking for, you can't buy a no-mod item and modify it - not without breaking the ToS, that is, and risk being banned from SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Bernie Shippe wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: Ok, you don't mind being a thief. I can't argue with that. As I said in the post that you quoted, if an item isn't exactly what you want (in this case, if it's no copy) don't buy it. It's perfectly simple. Or you could ask the seller to sell you a 'copy' version and perhaps offer more for it. But if you buy a 'no copy' item and circumvent the permisiions so that you can copy it, and then you do copy it, you're a thief. whoosh. totally missing the point. it's not about "copying"! I didn't miss the point at all. There was a discussion about copying and I joined it. If you'd read my posts, you would have known that. Who did you say missed the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 @Perrie. Yes, I mentioned that clothing would suit the copy/no trans permissions. There isn't a solution that would make everyone happy. But there's no need for a solution because there isn't a problem. My furiniture is no copy, which is not a problem for me. If anyone wants copyable furniture they can find search around and find some, so it isn't a problem for them either. It would only be a problem for them if they were forced to have no copy furniture that isn't forced on anyone. It's the same with clothing. The permissions that the sellers set isn't a problem for the sellers. If a person really wants clothing with different permission, they can search around and find some, so it's not a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Phil Deakins wrote: @Perrie. Yes, I mentioned that clothing would suit the copy/no trans permissions. There isn't a solution that would make everyone happy. But there's no need for a solution because there isn't a problem. My furiniture is no copy, which is not a problem for me. If anyone wants copyable furniture they can find search around and find some, so it isn't a problem for them either. It would only be a problem for them if they were forced to have no copy furniture that isn't forced on anyone. It's the same with clothing. The permissions that the sellers set isn't a problem for the sellers. If a person really wants clothing with different permission, they can search around and find some, so it's not a problem. You are right, a person can always shop around for something else. But sometimes you find that perfect something except for one little detail. Sizing is usually the biggest problem. Or the couple of pairs of no mod boots I have that the invisiprims are linked to the boots. The Merchant has never responded to my request for help so although I love their foot wear they have lost me forever as a customer. It's a matter of being able to do that little tweak that makes it work perfect for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuria Augapfel Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Bernie....unfortunately I have dealt with some copybotters through time in my SL business and reading your posts you have exactly the same mentality and arguments that all of them. You do NOT have rights to circumventing the permissions of SL products W-H-A-T-E-V-E-R the reason. You can scream all the way that you have them but It will not make it real If someone sells an item NO-MODIFY you have 2 options: buy it or go ahead to buy something else if the no-mod is a problem for you. Break the permissions and if the merchant catch you, check your e-mail waiting for DMCA notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Shippe Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Phil Deakins wrote: Now you're being very silly. I never did want your money but I never had any reason to ban you. cool. Phil Deakins wrote: If you don't find exactly what you're looking for, you can't buy a no-mod item and modify it - not without breaking the ToS, that is, and risk being banned from SL. agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Shippe Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Phil Deakins wrote: I didn't miss the point at all. There was a discussion about copying and I joined it. If you'd read my posts, you would have known that. Who did you say missed the point? you're replying to me and my point all along was really about modifying an item that i own. making a backup copy of the original plays into that so i'll concede that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Shippe Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 cool story bro. since i don't use copybot (never have never will) i have no way to do that so i have nothing to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madman626 Fall Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Nope you would had not got ban no because none would had knew but now you came here and told on yourself * smart move *. Now I will say this I see both side of this after reading 8 pages of this there been some good points and bad points,,,but I have to say this to the buyers where do you get off at trying to go around and make something mod.That was`t meant to be ,, don't like how it looks build it your dang self what I really think wait I not done yet ,,, I see this has i`am been building a long time my self ,,,I don't think you could get to F*** up my builds either OK builder I about to piss you all off * jokes* I do believe I don't care if you made it there nothing wrong with some one adding to your build who do you think you are telling ppl what they can and can't do with there building they paid for after that you get no dang say about I don't give a sh** what you have to say about it has long he not selling or remaking it to sell you all out of line ,,hell ford motor com, don't get tell me what the hell I can do with there truck and cars same GM motor com, they can't tell me what to do with them they can not stop me from putting a 350ci, V8 in a 1932 ford car body can they ? Nope so what make you think you can here .he not breaking your copy right by doing so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 madman626 Fall wrote: Nope you would had not got ban no because none would had knew but now you came here and told on yourself * smart move *. Now I will say this I see both side of this after reading 8 pages of this there been some good points and bad points,,,but I have to say this to the buyers where do you get off at trying to go around and make something mod.That was`t meant to be ,, don't like how it looks build it your dang self what I really think wait I not done yet ,,, I see this has i`am been building a long time my self ,,,I don't think you could get to F*** up my builds either OK builder I about to piss you all off * jokes* I do believe I don't care if you made it there nothing wrong with some one adding to your build who do you think you are telling ppl what they can and can't do with there building they paid for after that you get no dang say about I don't give a sh** what you have to say about it has long he not selling or remaking it to sell you all out of line ,,hell ford motor com, don't get tell me what the hell I can do with there truck and cars same GM motor com, they can't tell me what to do with them they can not stop me from putting a 350ci, V8 in a 1932 ford car body can they ? Nope so what make you think you can here .he not breaking your copy right by doing so Nobody has said anything about that. You can add to anything you buy. You can't link the addition to a no-mod object but linking isn't essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 madman626 Fall wrote: ... I don't care if you made it there nothing wrong with some one adding to your build who do you think you are telling ppl what they can and can't do with there building they paid for after that you get no dang say about I don't give a sh** what you have to say about it has long he not selling or remaking it to sell you all out of line ,,hell ford motor com, don't get tell me what the hell I can do with there truck and cars same GM motor com, they can't tell me what to do with them they can not stop me from putting a 350ci, V8 in a 1932 ford car body can they ? Nope so what make you think you can here .he not breaking your copy right by doing so In case you hadn't noticed this is not RL and a different set of rules apply called the TOS and DMCA. Again, you can't join SL and agree to the TOS to do so, then later decide some of it doesn't apply to you. You agreed that you do not actually own something you buy, in the same sense as RL, but only are purchasing the right to use it under the terms set by the creator. You agreed to the fact that creators have a right to specify any terms of use they care to and you will respect and abide by that. If you want ot make your items modifiable, that is your right. But you have no right to tell other creators what permissions they should set. The only thing you can do is vote with your pocketbook.If you want to mod something, don't buy no mod items. There are plenty of products out there you can mod. Buy those. These concepts are really very simple. I don't understand why the OP and some people in this thread have such a hard time understanding this or that they think they are so special they are above the law and the TOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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