More City Sims!!

[Romanadvoratrelundar Ghost]

Its not a surprise that Bay City has become the 'in' place to have land, and that people are willing to pay more to live there.

The city Sims build a strong community in second life, so isn't it fair to say that there should be more of these Sims?

If the Lindens know that Bay City is popular why don't they create more Sims like this? 

Another reason to create more City Sims is that putting more city Sims in would mean more communities. 

Another idea to create community Sims is use them to replace the premium member homes. Premium members may get a home, but the area is crowded and mostly empty. Unlike the city Sims, there is no seance of community. 

(while I may not be a premium member, I know a lot of people who are, and all of them seem to agree that they don't see their homes as a community area but instead more like a vacation rental* 

*as shown in the picture to the left)

 

So building more city Sims and letting a small portion of it rented to normal avatars and a large portion of it housing Linden homes.

 

What do you think? 

Should there be more City Sims, and if so how should they go about building them?

[Alicia Sautereau]

They killed the land market enough as it is, let estates do it as there are a few that actually do...

Buying even a small plot over there is more expensive then buying an entire mainland region with money to spare to pay tier, let alone a larger plot, not to mention not many move out as they payed a heap amount of money and won`t egt scraps for it back, so they stay

[Qwalyphi Korpov]

The resident who provided the previous content, if any, has replaced it with this generic statement.

[Qie Niangao]

As much as Bay City is a product of an active community of residents, the ability to attract those residents is a product of double-prim allotment and LDPW infrastructure.

In contrast, the "Kama City" section of Zindra provides a kind of testing ground for the effects of these factors. The bulk of Kama City is single-primmed -- and most of it sells for the same or less than the average for Zindra, despite having LDPW roads, monorail, etc.  There are some exceptions for the reallly exceptional LDPW builds, but generally, the infrastructure alone doesn't make a city sim appealing enough to fetch a premium.

Wherever it's double-primmed, however, Kama City land sells for more than the best of Bay City.  The thing is, so does other double-primmed parts of Zindra. This stuff is all so rare that it's hard to compare apples to apples, but my general sense is that those non-city double-primmed sections of Zindra are in at least as much demand.

It's important to realize that double-primmed land is valuable for other reasons besides the number of prims that can be rezzed. In fact, that's the least of it, IMHO.  Land that's double-primmed is on sims that are at least half vacant -- either water or protected space between resident parcels. Those features add a lot to the value of single-primmed Mainland, too.

Anyway, I'd certainly not suggest minting another square meter of new Mainland.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  They really need to find a way to make Mainland more attractive than Linden Homes so they can shut down some of those Linden Homes regions.  (It should be much easier to prune back the LH regions; they're pretty much interchangeable within a theme anyway.)

It may be possible to make double-primmed regions from existing all- or mostly-abandoned Mainland sims, but it would take some creative parcel design--and a heck of a lot of Moles with parcel adjustment powers. A lot of work, but it may be one way to start undoing the Linden Homes mistake, if they can get most of Mainland double-primmed in an attractive way.

[Marianne McCann]

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Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

I really don't know much about the history of Bay City.  But I'll dive in anyway.

Bay City is a double prim zone.  Other areas would increase in popularity if the Lindens made them double prim also.

/me begins to hold breath waiting for my double prims.

Bay City got lots of hand holding by the Lindens to help it thrive.  For example - here in this forum two locations get a sticky posting to promote them.  One is Bay City.  This approach does not scale well over time.  It turns out the Lindens only have staffing to promote two locations.

Yes - it's true that I'm making some of this up.

here's a link to material that includes the double prim factoid.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bay_City

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I'd say there are several factors to the popularity of Bay City. First and foremost is the double prim land. You can pay the cost of a 1024m parcel, tier wise, and have the prim alottment of a 2048m. That is a win. Most parcels also have more than one protected edge, which adds to the desirability.

You have a nice themed area, with a lot of things to do/see/be a part of in a relatively small space. This is of lesser import in a world where one can teleport to wherever they wish, but it remains a nice bonus. It's also nice (and something I've been able to take advantage of on my own parcels) to have so many possible views out on to parklands and other spaces. Less views off into "less aesthically pleasing" neighbor's parcels.

You have a spot that, from its inception, has been home to high, sometimes ludricously high, land prices. This can keep the land cost artifically high (a 'bubble"). At the same time, some of those high prices are maintained by the very scarcity of "city" style land offerings like Nova Albion, Bay City, Nautilus City, and Kama City.

You also have a strong local advocacy group, the Bay City Alliance, that works to promote the area, host events, etc. This group is also why there's a Bay City "sticky" folder here, amongst other things. We (well, in that case, I) advocated for it. There is also some Linden involvement in Bay City, but not as much in the more recent months than in the past. Still, it is more common to see "the hand of Linden" than most Mainland locations.

[Marianne McCann]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Anyway, I'd certainly not suggest minting another square meter of new Mainland.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  They really need to find a way to make Mainland more attractive than Linden Homes so they can shut down some of those Linden Homes regions.  (It should be much easier to prune back the LH regions; they're pretty much interchangeable within a theme anyway.)

It may be possible to make double-primmed regions from existing all- or mostly-abandoned Mainland sims, but it would take some creative parcel design--and a heck of a lot of Moles with parcel adjustment powers. A lot of work, but it may be one way to start undoing the Linden Homes mistake, if they can get most of Mainland double-primmed in an attractive way.

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This I wholly agree with, by and large. I don't think they should get *most* ot the mainland double-primmed (more supply, less demand), but I think they could make additional "city" areas in different themes around the mainland, use these to replace the Linden Home concept. Add a "city on stilts" to the northeast of Iris, Make a "Snow City" within the snowlands, "Bayou City" somewhere near Hyles, etc. (examples off top of head)

One could cven bundle the two in a unique way. Consider if LL added a small block of Linden Home like "brownstones" in Bay City complimentary regions to the south of the existing Bay City land mass as an example. It would continue the Linden Home offering while also feeding into the City. Ditto in other areas, having these as a somewhat combined product, and allowing them to "feed" each other.

[Indigo Mertel]

I agree with what others have said in this thread. I'd also like to add that Bay City is not the only example of a nice community with a cohesive style. There are a number of communities on Mainland which have the same goals as Bay City. Rather than having Lindens build more city sims I'd like to see them supporting communities. Set some basic rules, such as communities must have a charter supporting a cohesive style and preserving their area. Offer some advantages (double prims woiuld be one), give incentives to people to join a community and let people take care of things.

On a small scale and without any incentives, the model we use in our community works. We are a small group of land owners who joined forces to create a protected area which is attractive and without the typical chaos of Mainland. In its 4 years of existence, the East River Community grew from having land in 3 sims to a total land mass of 6+ sims and a presence in 7.

This would be a good way to improve Mainland and counteract abandonment and loss of value. LL used to have a Community Partnership Program and then killed it. It never really worked in the beginning but if LL got serious about it, it could be an attempt worth to try. It certainly would do no harm.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Of all the double primmed regions on mainland, Bay City is the -only- one with a vibrant and stable community. SOme thought should go into why that has happened - when it failed to happen for Zindra's double prim land, Nautilus City, and even Novia Albion next door to Bay City.

Also look at the Shermerville sims - these are -NOT- double primmed, but have enough space that they could be. And yet they still fetch high prices. Not as high as Bay City, but high.

- That implies that the city layout, the 'LDPW' preconfiguration, does in fact have some impact all by itself. Its just not all of the story, no more than double primming is all of the story.

I -have- seen double prim 512 and 1024 lots in Zindra going for as low as the teens, under 20kL. It happens. While Bay City is very community, Zindra downtown is the exact opposite - extremely anti-community. To the point that it has lobbying agencies dedicated to destroying community efforts of each other and others - such as opposing residential builds on one side, or opposing 'business FIC' on the other... or more like: simply there for the purpose of opposing stuff; with the nature of what is opposed varying by the times.

Nautilus City is a curious creature. Double primmed, strong LDPW theme, all kinds of community spots left by the lindens... and yet nothing. There are community groups for it, but they are all dead. Why this one failed to take, I don't know. The only practical difference between Bay City and Nautilus City seems to be that Nautilus land is all, or almost all, 1024 squares with multiple protected sides. Bay City lots vary in shape and size.

- I think the success of Bay City therefore, largely has to be given credit to its most charismatic residents, like Marianne above.

 

As for all the support the lindens give to Bay City... its easy to find out why. Good relations. Bay City's core folks don't fight with the lindens, they work with them (when you can get a Linden to log in. ).  I suspect Lindens like to do things in Bay City, because folks there say thanks, even if the result is not 100% perfect, they enjoy the parts that are. Contrast that with Zindra. If a Linden does something in Zindra and gets it 99% right, the groups there will rake hem over the coals over the 1% that was wrong, and claim the other 99% was built just to favor a few FIC... So I suspect Lindens don't do jack in Zindra unless management tells them to.

 

[Moni Duettmann]

#Marianne McCann: Now that you say it.... it's really strange that Linden chose to "ban" their prefab homes into seperate sims and continents. Why not place them in small portions near to mainland areas and cities? That would be so much better!

Speaking of development, (sorry this is slightly off-topic): Do you have an idea, wether or when the Suburbs will get the two missing beach/water sims? Or do you happen to know how/whom to ask about it? 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Moni Duettmann wrote:

#Marianne McCann: Now that you say it.... it's really strange that Linden chose to "ban" their prefab homes into seperate sims and continents. Why not place them in small portions near to mainland areas and cities? That would be so much better!

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Simple process of 'copy - paste' builds. The prefab homes are all automated in their build. They drop down a sim, and stamp it with a preconfigured set of things, all in a formulaic pattern. They repeated that across an entire mini-continent. And when it filled up, they just selected the entire continent from its backup on the database, and pasted it onto the world again. There are at least 3 entire mini-continents of them now. All 100% identical save for the original one have parts of it declared as infohubs.

Too formulaic for it to be on anywhere occupied. If they'd made it an addon to the existing world, it would have been harder to keep duplicating. Though that said, they -could- have done this the way they doubled Bay City recently. Just keep extending the pattern out in a direction, and lay out a grid of roads such that they always meet at some common point on the edges...

But that solution would have taken a day or two more work, configuring the point where it met with some existing part of the world, likely with a bridge similar to that between Novia Albion and Shermerville.

 

[Moni Duettmann]

Oh my... where's the creative spirit that fired the makers of SL? Don't they know that people want some individuality? Just imagine sitting in those uniform sims and not even being able to build!

[Romanadvoratrelundar Ghost]

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Moni Duettmann wrote:

Oh my... where's the creative spirit that fired the makers of SL? Don't they know that people want some individuality? Just imagine sitting in those uniform sims and not even being able to build!

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i agree, why would you want to live in  house that looks the same as everybody else's. same color , same design, 

would it really have killed them to vary their designs in houses 

no one wants a identical vacation home!

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

Romanadvoratrelundar

Ghost

wrote

:

---

Moon

Attendant

wrote

:

Oh

my

...

Where's

the

creative

spirit

that

fired

the

makers

of

SSL

?

Don't

they

know

that

people

want

some

individuality

?

Just

imagine

sitting

in

those

uniform

Sims

and

not

even

being

able

to

build

!

---

I

 

agree

,

why

would

you

want

to

live

in

 

house

that

looks

the

same

as

everybody

 

else's

.

Same

color

,

same

 

design

, 

would

it

really

have

killed

them

to

vary

their

designs

in

houses

 

no

one

wants

a

identical

vacation

home

!

---

Linden homes were designed that way on purpose.  The Lindens came up with the idea hoping that people would get get a taste of home ownership in SL and then want more, so then move out to other locations where they could have more choice in style, size and their environment.  It was actually a plan to boost the demand for main land  and private estates.   Unfortunately people that get a Linden Home generally don't do this.  They are content with mediocrity. Hence one of the reasons there is such a glut of empty land now.  If  people want more, they can still move out and buy or rent land that suits them better.  So i see no need to make Linden Homes more attractive, as it would make the land glut situation even worse.  In fact, if LL were smart they would limit the time people could occupy a Linden Home.  People would  then move out to mainland and use their 512 land allowance there or to a private estate.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Quoting a person who is in turn quoting Phillip from this article:

http://pandodaily.com/2012/07/06/philip-rosedale-the-media-is-wrong-secondlife-didnt-fail/

****************

Rosedale said one of the biggest surprises he had building SecondLife was how when given total creative license, most of the houses just looked like ones in Malibu. Most people just covet the things they know, he says. And in the US, perhaps that life is attainable enough. And for those who can’t attain it, there are already well-trod ways to escape into it, through television, music videos, or RomComs set in Manhattan where everything winds up okay. Perhaps they want the culture that’s already built for them, not the responsibility to build it themselves.

****************

Thus, Linden Homes bother people a lot less than they want to sound cool by not admitting. People like living in 'Pleasantville'... Just look at the avatars in SL to know that most folks here want to all be identical.

Similar, skin, hair, AO, and fashion on most folks. Often I can't tell who somone is by looking at them in SL, they look just like the other 5 avatars around them or that I've encountered in the last day. I have to resort to their name tags. Even people who on the forums or in their profile will pronounce their individuality, and make comments about 'not changing their shape to fit something' - reguarly have the same shape as most of the rest of the crowd, live in the same style of SL house, go the same music places, and are basically just being 'different in the same way all the other Barbies are different.'

So Linden Home success is really not all that suprising. It lets people avoid being individuals - which is something that scares many folks.

 

 

[Hintswen Guardian]

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Alicia Sautereau wrote:

Buying even a small plot over there is more expensive then buying an entire mainland region with money to spare to pay tier, let alone a larger plot, not to mention not many move out as they payed a heap amount of money and won`t egt scraps for it back, so they stay

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Sorry what? Looking around my home location I see land for L$60,000-L$80,000 (1024m parcels aprox). Last time I checked a full mainland sim costs more than that and then you are left with high tier payments.

Oh and FYI those people that payed a "heap" for the land can sell it back to someone else and get quite a lot for it.

[Qie Niangao]

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... Looking around my home location I see land for L$60,000-L$80,000 (1024m parcels aprox). Last time I checked a full mainland sim costs more than that ...

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Yes. (To be fair, that one is an exceptionally nice sim, with easy navigation to Blake Sea.)

[Pussycat Catnap]

Are we going there?

Old topic is old.

What was this one even about anyway?

 

[Faye Blackheart]

I know this is a super old thread, but I was just buzzing through it out of boredom.  I have lived in Bay City for over a year, and it is such an active and welcoming community.  I believe the question was posited regarding what it was about Bay City that made it so unique, so desirable, and so active...was it the double prim land?  The LDPW builds?  I can tell you flatly, it is all of those things, but what makes it a thriving community is hands down the activity of its members.  We are very lucky to have some extremely active and kind people advocating for Bay City and keeping the community alive.  We all are in groups in SL, that are full of people, but totally inactive.  What makes them active?  People who care and put some effort in.  Bay City Alliance, the group for residents of Bay City, thrives because of Marianne McCann, who, if there was an election for office, would be the president of Bay City.  She is front and center for all that is Bay City, and she is surrounded my many others who are also very active in furthering events and the community feel of Bay City.  Their involvement, eagerness to help, willingness to befriend new residents, and general enthusiasm for our home is infectious.  I would never even consider leaving Bay City.  If I were to leave Bay City, it would be because I was leaving SL for good.  Bay City is the kind of place I spent years seeking out but never found in other mainland areas, or estates.  The closest similarity was on roleplay sims, where you saw the same people, made friends, had a themed environment, and lots of community activity.  Unfortunately, those kind of sims are unstable and subject to the whims of dictators.  Bay City offers all the benefits of a private themed community, but with private land rights.  There is no power struggle, there is no issue with dictatorship, the land is as stable as Linden Lab (which is hopefully stable!!), and with the high price of land, people seem to show some respect for it.  Most people have better than average builds (there are a few eyesores, but no where near the level of the rest of mainland), and many people use there land to create public spaces.  I have seen people use their land to offer the public cafes, gyms, bars, breweries, public rezz zones, courthouses, police stations, taxi cab depots, hotels, etc.  I could go on for days.  Some come and go as people decide to build new things, but the point is, that infection of community spirit coming from Bay City Alliance's members spreads to even the newest of residents.  It only takes one enthusiastic and active person to make something special, and that's what Marianne has done for Bay City, IMHO.