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Imagin Illyar

Mesh Clothing - Do you design for STANDARD AVIE or STANDARD SIZING?

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There are meetings every week. These are held on Nyx Linden's region at 12pm on mondays. I seriously doubt they are going to comment on the topic. Oz might say a bit more at his meeting, but I never goto those. I really should tho, cause I heard he was asking people about internal AOs. Really tho, I'd probably just get pissed that they are gonna work on internal AOs but can't fix the 5 year old anim bugs.

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No... We are very much in the alpha stage. Version 0.3 is in 'progress.' We have no idea when the next stage will be completed by Qarl. 

The Lindens have not gotten around to merging the 0.2 code with the current viewer code. There are apparently some problems with the merge and too few people to get it sorted.

We are starting to get a picture of what the final product will be like. See: #SL Mesh Deformer Project Update Wk16.

But, there is no clue as to when we will see it roll to the main grid.

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Well written Maxwell. There are some points where I disagree, but they are trivial points. However, I see the overall result differently.

Karl/Qarl's recent comments (4/20) in a Metatreality Podcast poke some holes in Maxwell's vision of what is to be. Inara Pey transcribed the audio recording in: Parametric deformer: Qarl updates (2). I think one has to hear what Qarl says to get the full impact. Listen to the Audio on Metareality in: Smoke and Mirrors - skip to the 28:00 minute mark. I've given my take on Qarl's vision and explained the problems in: #SL Mesh Deformer Project Update Wk16. If your new to this debate, my article will hopefully get you up to speed. If your interested in the history of this debate and want a more in depth background look in the post information to the right of my articles and click the tag: Deformer.

Qarl makes it pretty clear that a one-size-fits-all-avatars plan is unlikely to work. Some hybrid of the Deformer and Sizes is likely to be the final result. The Standard Sizes thing is likely to fall by the way side. Our unique avatars are not going to fit into a standard mold. While Maxwell is finding some number of people willing to change shape sizes my experience is the majority are not willing to make changes to their shape.

Also, the multiple 'standards' are going to a be a problem. I may need a shape for each designer, or groups of designers, that adopt various 'standards.' Not something I look forward to. So, while Maxwell sees the women of SL conforming to marketing pressures and the marketeers being in charge, I don't. Perhaps it is just me and my circle of friends. But, when I spoke to the Manhattan, NY models group, I don't hang in fashionesta circles, I got the impression they were far too independent to conform to marketing pressure. While I think it likely one could pay them to change shape for a modeling gig, I can;t see them giving up their everyday shape. I could be wrong.

I think Qarl is right that we will see some blend of Sizing and the Deformer. The female avatars that choose excessive endowments are not going to conform to any type of standard sizing. The bootilious girls I see in the clubs are certainly never going to fit those big butts into a standard size. It just aint gonna happen.

Plus there are the issues of how to get textures to look good when avatars are large or tiny. If the viewer has to compress or stretch a texture beyond some minor amount, it looks horrible. One has to fit the texture to the expected ender size. The deformer may be able to deform the mesh to whatever avatar settings one has selected. But, it is not going to improve the appearance of an over stretched or compressed texture. I think we have to expect some type of sixing to go along with the Deformer.

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We are all the exact same standard avatar - all our many differences come from deformation - which we do with sliders.  Those with extreme body types already suffer from texture stretching - in everything from their skins to layer clothing.  I really hope that Qarl gets the time to push this forward.

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Imagin Illyar wrote:

We are all the exact same standard avatar - all our many differences come from deformation - which we do with sliders.  Those with extreme body types already suffer from texture stretching - in everything from their skins to layer clothing.  I really hope that Qarl gets the time to push this forward.

As someone with a well-endowed avatar, I know the system clothing stretching issue very well. However, this is a common problem across programs when you use more extreme morphs on a base avatar. That issue won't change with the current technology that is used. You can minimize the problem by adding extra resolution to the stretched areas though.

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Thank you, Max, that was a really good post.

I think many of us are completely against the whole idea of being forced to change our shapes to conform to Fashion Designers' definition of 'normal' or 'standard'. I can understand the rationalle and necessity of it as a workaround, but I am still fundamentally opposed to the concept of it.

Second Life is about being who you wish to be and look how you wish to look, and it would be a great shame if the unholy workaround of Standard Sizes were to be anything other than a transient bodge just like Emerald's hacky multi attach points were. This is not something we want to have to endure long term.

I explored this a litte more in a recent blog post I made and why I genuinely believe that the Parametric Deformer is very important and why the idea of Standard Sizing has very negative ramifications, although I'm not sure how much it adds to your excellent post.

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Imagin Illyar wrote:

At this point it seems senseless to design mesh clothing yet there is a market for it.  LL makes money on marketplace sales, they should be concerned.

I love to create mesh, but I'm not going to lay my hands on clothings as long as meshes don't fit the standard size. So I spend my time on other objects now. And LL makes it's commission on those now. I guess that counts for a lot of other creators as well.

There is still a world to create in mesh, so the clothing can wait till the circumstance are okay to start designing them.

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I've been waiting on the Deformation tool.  I've got a realistic, but nonstandard shape in SL, and I don't want to have to give it up just to wear mesh clothing.  I also don't want to design to a 'standard' size.  Currently, to fit in one spot, it is too big or too small in another spot.  This isn't really acceptable to me.  I'll stick to designing non clothing mesh items as well, until I can know that one size fits most [ which ought to be the case for most types of clothing].

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I agree with most of the comments here based on the "standard sizing"  there is no standard size for anybody , just like RL ,  everyone wants their clothing to fit them perfectly ,  and to be honest I dont blaim them having that want ,  yet as one of the very very few Mesh  clothing designers for the Gor/Medieval  market I have not embraced this " 6 sizes in a pack"  system ,  as you still can not gaurantee fitting ,  or even close to fitting ,  never mind physics issues without the deformer project. And an alpha layer can not fix most of the issues you may have,  of course you can develope  complete outfits ( which is what i do)  because you also can not  gaurantee a mix and match mentality either.  this ISNT real life,  we arnt talking cotton or wool,  you are wearing a suit of wood , metal or plastic ( or rubber if you are that way inclined).  A perfect example of this was the other night ,  A customer came to me ,  and said " this item doesnt fit my AV ,  "  i suggested the alpha mask , and they replied that that wouldnt work  because they had a mesh body.  Now  I thought to myself this was a problem ,  but at 5.30  am  I was uploading the 18th  version of the pants for this customer,  and they still didnt fit ...  why not ?  because the body maker had made the AV so " buff"  that the legs were not actually within the scope of the rigging ,  so even though i stretched the inner thighs to half way inside the opposite leg they still did not fit ,  and never would  because the custoemrs mesh body developer had given ZERO thought to anything,  and All i could do after 3 hours at extream costs was laugh with the customer  and tell them " the avengers  is at the cinema ,  i recommend changing the pant texture to purple ,  painting your AV green ...  and lean how to say " gunna SMASH!!!!!!"  a lot . We both found it somewhat funny  and he did cover the upload costs ,  but the point of this is ....  mesh will NEVER fit everyone ,  even with deformers.  it will always be a problem for somebody as it isnt a perfect solution,  in game s..  mesh  is deformed because you have no body ,  your body IS the clothing ,  you overcome issues with animations with shape keys ,  and are not subject to stupid AO's  that make you wave your arms like a muppet or stand in a position that unclothed your AV skin textures are stretched beyond recognition.  WE as developers  can push as much as we like  for LL to secome to our wants ,  but ultimately ....  we are going to have customers who are loyal ,  and like how we do things ,  but we may also have the opposite.  I know I for one ,  will not be doing a " standardised"  system decided by other designers,  as certainly  if you read the reviews ..  they made 5 sizes that fit NOBODY .  we really just have be more understanding as developers and customer to the limits of mesh ,  and then let the deformer project catch the slack.

Ive tired the approach of trying to accomidate peoples needs,  but even when i offered the service of saying " give me your shape ..  and cover upload costs and i will do my best"  and you know  what .....  they complained ...  yes  complained  that i didnt make the size that was perfect for them ....  for free.  So ..  you cant win ,  so i just make an " outfit suit"  in an average size,  with an alpha mask and when deformation because front line ...  i will make for that instead.

 

Bray @ snatched

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If the only real argument for standard sizes in light of the upcoming deformer is stretching on extreme avatars it doesn't make sense.  Even the largest standard size would look stretched on an avie's extremely sized areas.  Standard sizing is just a way to sell mesh clothing right now.  I'm kinda grateful for it in a way, I do mostly fit a standard size and have been enjoying my new mesh clothes quite a bit.  However, I'd MUCH rather have mesh clothes made for the deformer because it will fit me perfectly.  I'm already noticing that not all standard sized clothes is the same in the same size.  I have to go up a size in several outfits to get the best possible fit but it's not very good at all.

Bring on the deformer - get rid of standard sizes!

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