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Imagin Illyar

Mesh Clothing - Do you design for STANDARD AVIE or STANDARD SIZING?

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So, according to Qarl, the deformer that LL is now starting to integrate into their viewer is only going to work with the standard SL avie (default with no slider mods).  See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogXxjITaNi0&context=C43c3d5eADvjVQa1PpcFN0Vi9Xn54J7bb-UEu2JOdMI2suiP-sctI=

So this means that clothes designed for avies with the Standard Sizing in mind won't work when the deformation is implemented.

Oz Linden saying that they are implementing the deformer:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Deformation-on-custom-avatars/m-p/1461193#M13049

More info on Standard Sizing here:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Standard-Sizing-Package/2894727

So, with all that in mind - if you are designing rigged mesh clothing - what are you developing for - Standard Avie or Standard Sizing?

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Nope, that's what I been trying to explain to people. Making all those extra sizes was a totally pointless affair and I was trying to keep people from waisting a huge amount of time. This doesn't mean that extreme shapes will fit mesh clothing perfectly tho. I'm sure there will be some tricks of the trade and special rigging configurations for extreme shapes. This was my point, that the time spent creating all those different meshes for different sizes would have been much better spent tweaking the vertex weighting on their mesh clothing to fit the most people the best.

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I would assume that the deformer will be based on an opt-in system per mesh - so hopefully, older style mesh clothing made pre-deformer release won't be broken. Obviously, if the deformer is used on them, unpredictable results would occur due to the different AV shape it is based upon.

Any clothing I plan on making (when I learn rigging in the near future) will be based on my OWN AV's shape, since it will initially only be for personal usage. However, once the deformer is officially released, it won't take much effort to slightly reshape the clothing mesh to fit the standard SL AV and re-rig accordingly. All it really means is going back a few steps in the mesh process, pushing around the vertices slightly until they fit correctly, and rigging from there. (I've had prior experience making clothing to fit DAZ figures (for personal usage), so I have a fair idea of how SL rigging will work, and the general process of fitting clothing meshes to different figure shapes etc).
If a merchant has a massive inventory of clothing meshes not compatible with the deformer, it would be entirely up to them as to whether or not they go and redo the clothing. Most likely, merchants will probably have to clearly specify whether or not their clothing is specifically deformer compatible or not.

So personally - I am planning to just rig my clothing for my own specific AV shape for now. When the deformer is eventually released, I will switch over to fit to the standard SL AV, and convert any of my existing clothing as well.
(Who knows, the deformer might be officially released by the time I get around to creating much mesh clothing - but not holding my breath on it being any time soon).

:matte-motes-smile:

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It will also be good to note that any mesh that goes near your head, namely hoodies, will be massively distorted by the facial morphs. Same would go for hands. Feet is a whole other issue. I haven't tried any hair, so I can't say anything about that.

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I am on dial up right now or I would do the research to verify this but I am pretty sure that Qarl has said that clothes made pre deformer will not work once he releases the deformer. Cool viewer and several other viewers have the beta release built in so go try it.

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According to the website with Cool Viewer you can only upload mesh with the Linnux and Mac versions.  Says nothing about the mesh deformer - you sure about that?  Anyone know of a viewer that for sure has the mesh deformer?

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When I make custom mesh items for merchants that later use them in their creations, I give them the item fitted to the default SL avatar and the standard sizing set if they want. If you know what you are doing, it isn't time consuming to re-fit the clothing item for the five extra standard sizing avatars. The way I see it, you might as well be ready for the future.

As for the deformer and old clothing, I think Qarl already stated that it won't work for old items. He also stated that there would be an option not to use the deformer on an item as well.

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Imagin Illyar wrote:

According to the website with Cool Viewer you can only upload mesh with the Linnux and Mac versions.  Says nothing about the mesh deformer - you sure about that?  Anyone know of a viewer that for sure has the mesh deformer?

According to Nalate's blog, Nirans version 1.25 has Mesh Deformer 0.2. http://blog.nalates.net/2012/02/17/mesh-deformer-0-2-update/

I'm not sure if the later versions of Nirans' viewer still has it though.

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Whether or not the pre-deformer mesh items will work depends on how the switch to use or not use the deformer is implemented. Chances are good the Lindens will find a way to keep them compatable. A mesh without a flag or an Off Flag will not use the deformer is most likely solution. So, it is very likely all pre-Deformer rigged mesh will not use the Deformer and be just fine.

Several viewers added what has become known as Deformer 0.1. Nirans Viewer 1.25 has the Deformer 0.2 a later revision by Qarl. It took some effort on NiranV's part to get it to work. NV 1.32 has Deformer 0.2 but there are some problems. Mesh items flash in and out of existence. Very annoying. Disable the Deformer and all is well.

Cool VL 1.26.2 (17) has a unique implementation of the Deformer. A setting allows you to switch between 0.1 and 0.2. So, for mesh experiementers this is a good choice. Advanced->Rendering->Enable Mesh Deformer Don't be fooled by Cool's V1 user interface. This is an exceptional viewer using the latest LL V3 code. You just have to like the V1 UI. The Deformer is in 1.26.3 too.

The Lab has a Deformer Project Viewer with Deformer 0.1. Problems in the Deformer 0.2 have not been resolved. The code does not work with the Lab's viewer. There seems to be some stand-off as to who is supposed to fix what. The Lab has other projects and is unlikely to spend time on fixing the Deformer 0.2.

Dolphin 3 Viewer had it for a time. It was removed about the first of March in version 3.2.8.23163. Deformer 0.2 was not working with Dolphin code, probably the parts that were LL code.

Exodus Beta 6 has Deformer 0.1. Advanced -> Rendering Features -> Mesh Deformer.

Firestorm 3.3.0 (24880) was being released around the time Deformer 0.2 came out, I think. The FS/PH team decided to leave it out feeling it was too buggy.

I have articles in the blog comparing the two, 0.1 and 0.2. Deformer 0.2 works much better as far as deforming goes. But, it is slow. When you put on a mesh it takes a minute or two, as in 60 to 120 second, for things to start working. Initially the delay confused me and I was trying to figure out what was wrong. I can select a lot os things to click and stuff to type in 2 minutes. 

It is probably possible to optimize the Deformer code and make things work better. But, for now the project appears to be stalled and seems to have been since early February.

As to using the Deformer to assist with design... I'm not sure it is worth the effort. It is certainly work experiementing with to understand what it does. But, there are still some render problems even with the Deformer. My hope is they will get ironed out in Deformer 0.3... whenever that may be.

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Nalates Urriah wrote:

Several viewers added what has become known as Deformer 0.1. Nirans Viewer 1.25 has the Deformer 0.2 a later revision by Qarl. It took some effort on NiranV's part to get it to work. NV 1.32 has Deformer 0.2 but there are some problems. Mesh items flash in and out of existence. Very annoying. Disable the Deformer and all is well.

 

Thanks for that information. :)

Do you know where the on/off switch is for the Deformer in the latest Niran's version? I can't find it in preferences.

As for Cool VL, the upload for models is greyed out in the 1.26.3 version. Plus, I'm not sure where the switch is in that viewer either. :/

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But considering the deformer is view based just because you turn off the deformer in your viewer doesn't mean that others have and wouldn't see your mesh the same as you do.  Something doesn't sound right to me about that.  Perhaps it is something that you envoke or not when uploading the mesh?

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That's why there has to be a new 'deformable' flag in each mesh asset saying whether or not is will use the deformer. Then everyone with the deformer switched on in their viewer will see both deformable and (old) non-deformable meshes correctly. If they turn the deformer off in the viewer, or use a viewer without it, they will see deformable meshes incorrectly, but still see old and undeformable meshes correctly. (That's all supposition, of course).

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I was able to speak with someone from the Standard Sizing comitte who is attending the meetings with Oz and Qarl and she assured me that the final version of the deformer would work with standard sizes and that different sizes would always be necessary.  She was not a Linden or a dev like Qarl so don't take this as fact but I thought it worth mentioning here.

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Imagin Illyar wrote:

... she assured me that the final version of the deformer would work with standard sizes and that different sizes would always be necessary.

Eh what?  Wasn't the whole idea of the deformer that different sizes will not be needed?  For the deformer rigged mesh clothes are designed to the default avatar and then they will fit all avatars.  If the clothes are designed for other than the default avatar, then they will not work with the deformer.

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Yup, that was my understanding as well.  But, like I said, she was with the standard sizing comittee so would have been biased - the people behind this have put a lot of effort into it.  Also, they wouldn't want to have to tell all the creators they have behind this that all the clothes they made with standard sizing isn't going to work any more.  Personally I would hope that there would be no need for making different sizes after the deformer is working too.

I'd really like to hear from someone who really knows on this issue.

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Coby Foden wrote:


Imagin Illyar wrote:

... she assured me that the final version of the deformer would work with standard sizes and that different sizes would always be necessary.

Eh what?  Wasn't the whole idea of the deformer that
different sizes will not be needed
?  For the deformer rigged mesh clothes are designed to the default avatar and then they will fit all avatars.  If the clothes are designed for other than the default avatar, then they will not work with the deformer.

It is not that they will not work with the deformer, they just won't work well. Technically, all mesh will work with the deformer, if you throw out what the word fit means. So, technically, they are not wrong.

Any1 that knows anything about 3d creation and the deformer project, would not be suggesting any1 to waiste their time making clothing to only fit certain sizes, IMHO. The deformer itself will have unique properties to creating clothing that fits well, and the time spent playing around with that would have been the smartest thing any clothing creator could do. All the different sizes that people use will have unique problems with the deformer, which, I'm guessing, will need special distribution of vertex weights in specific areas.

Here in lies the problem. Not enough people that do understand things are speaking up to give sound advice. They don't want to step into a big muddy puddle, which will ultimately bring them grief. Me, I have no skin in the game, and have little regard for those that choose to attack others based on ignorance. My only goal from the beginning was to save my fellow creators a crapload of time, and frustration.

Whether people choose to open up whole business based on bad advice or ignorance, is of no concern to me. I've been running a semi-successfull business in SL for over 5 years now and I know very well what it is like to waste months of work on projects that eventually get abandoned. Seeing others make the same mistake with mesh clothing is painfull to watch, and even more painful to hear the customers complain. Yeah, LL should have said more, and I blame them the most.

If anything, selling uniquely weighted default avatars to fit specific body types would be a much better idea.

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What you're saying makes perfect sense in accordance with my understanding of how the deformer will work and how it will affect clothes that are not designed for the standard avatar.  It does appear at this point that standard sizing will be obsolete when the deformer becomes mainstream.  Until then - for those who want to sell mesh clothes now - they are still kinda necessary.

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Personally, I'd hate to be a clothing designer at this time, as there are many decisions to be made. You could very well be right that they are forced to do things like this to stay competitive. I have no idea as I'm not in that market. My guess is, this is more preceived than actually the case. Having some early knowledge of the issue, I would have pushed LL to pay this issue the proper attention. Admitly, I was 1 of those people begging LL to just release mesh, as we waited for so long. I didn't quite anticipate how much creators and consumers would feel compelled to have mesh clothing, especially knowing the state that it was in. That said, If I were LL, I would have seen right away just how important the issue would become, and devoted a good amount of effort to make the deformer solution happen as quickly as possible. It does seem to me tho, that LL just has too many hoops to jump through to make anything happen quickly, lol.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Having some early knowledge of the issue, I would have pushed LL to pay this issue the proper attention. Admitly, I was 1 of those people begging LL to just release mesh, as we waited for so long. I didn't quite anticipate how much creators and consumers would feel compelled to have mesh clothing, especially knowing the state that it was in. That said, If I were LL, I would have seen right away just how important the issue would become, and devoted a good amount of effort to make the deformer solution happen as quickly as possible. It does seem to me tho, that LL just has too many hoops to jump through to make anything happen quickly, lol.

I was one of the people that brought up this issue to the Lindens *a lot* during the beta program. There were a couple of other people that voiced concern about the scale issue as well. However, the Lindens didn't feel that mesh would be used for fashion that heavily. They were convinced it would only explode for rezzables and rigged avatars, not clothing. So, they were made aware in the early stages. They just didn't find it to be a priority at that time.

 

 

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Personally, I have, as indicated by suggesting the deformer and starting the funding project for it, been a proponent of one size fits all, which is what it is supposed to do. When implemented properly, this works. Ive seen it work really well. In several platforms. How it will work in SL is up to Karl and the LL devs, though I have the fullest confidence in the project, which is why I went to Karl with the idea. If you see the man, thank him, SL would be a flat world without him.

That being said, I have also been a very strong opponent of standard sizing from the very beginning, for a variety of reasons. Before I list them, I would like to say that I understand the desire for it, the reason for it, the use of it and the momentum it has gained. People want mesh clothing, want to design mesh clothing, want to sell mesh clothing and in leiu of any additional options went with standard sizing as a means to those ends.

However, in the rush to develop, wear and monetize mesh clothing, implementing standard sizing is and has been an imperfect method at best and duct-tape marketing at worst. I would like to put forth the following propositions:

• Bottom line: Standard sizing does not provide a solution. It does not fix the problem. It is a work-around that has actually introduced a variety of new problems in the process.

• Standard sizing is a MARKETING TOOL, and a brilliant one. It has worked very well for the companies that introduced it in order to sell you mesh clothing, and continues to provide the only current method for mesh fashion to be designed, sold and worn. Prior to the introduction of standard sizing, there was no way to do so without horrible results. A group of designers got together, decided what the standards were going to be and began selling items before anyone else with what seemed to be a viable alternative to not having any mesh clothing. Consider that in the process of doing so several things have taken place; THey now sell more mesh clothing than just about anyone else, and by being the creators of the standard, they place themselves firmly at the front margin of the market. From a strategic and logistical standpoint, it is a brilliant move, and I imagine that they and any other businesses in SL that are using those standards are more than willing to go to great lengths to tell you how important it is that we use that system in order to have mesh clothing that works and fits you. By doing so, they have profited considerably. Consider also that by proposing the parametric deformer, I have no personal gain in this. While my name might have been mentioned in the funding of the idea, and be on the mesh jira that originally suggested the idea, I have not monetized on this, and will not do so. I have nothing vested in this except a desire to see mesh clothing work. My sales are not based on it. If it is introduced, then we may all be able to benefit by it. It is an actual SOLUTION to the problem, not a way for me to sell something before or in greater volume than anyone else.

• What are the standards? Who got to decide them? Why and by what authority? Again, from a marketing perspective, standard sizing is extremely effective. It has helped them considerably to sell you clothing. However, how often has the system of standards NOT worked for you personally? I have spoken to so many people who have an inventory full of mesh clothing that does not work as they wish, even with the standard sizing. I have a good number of mesh items that I also will not wear because it simply does not fit, standard or no. (it should be noted, also, that mens standard sizing is even more limited than that of the womens market). The majority of it STILL does not work as it should, and as a result I wear about 5% of what I bought. This is because, again, standard sizing does not actually FIX the problem.

• The standard sizing process introduces media- and market-driven standards of acceptance, body-consciousness and ideals of beauty into our second lives. This is actually my biggest regret about the use of standard sizing. I believe that SL has been for the most part (that is to say, in most practical situations) a world free of the majority of the social stigmas which exist in society. Up until now, this has been a very magic place for most of us, a place where being black, white, male, female, gay, straight, thin, fat, rebublican, democrat, foreign or domestic, coal or solar powered did not really exist as part of the world most of the time. Those things often tend to be at the front of social awareness of others in our first lives. For me and many of us I believe a big part of what makes SL special is that those things don't generally come into play. I don't give a ____ about those things, I care about how you are in SL. I know only the you that you present to me, based on your actions and your character. Why would anything else really matter? They don't in SL, and that is a big part of what makes this amazing. And then, standard sizing was introduced.

With this single step, women across SL are now being forced to identify with a body consciousness that could only be established by the same profession and with the same intention as those in RL who have done so - the fashion industry. Now, you must choose the size they label you with, or be forced to go into an edit-mode slider diet in order to conform to the shape that they think you should have in order to "be beautiful." What's next, a Lane Bryant store in SL? How would that make you feel? Has trying on mesh clothing made you, as a woman, conscious of your body not fitting it? Have you had to suffer some snarky size-0 sales clerk looking down her nose at you while exlaiming,"oh, we dont have YOUR size here." Coming soon, the mens big and tall event! Yay!

This is a tragedy, and a travesty. Much like in RL, standard sizing is a marketing tool designed to allow businesses and marketing firms to establish themselves as the ideal. Just wear this, you can be beautiful, but only if your breasts are this and your waist is that. They are the mattel of SL, and want you all to be the ideal Barbie. This is how marketing works, and so far, lacking any other method to market to you, SL is buying into it. Even the name "standard sizing" is brilliant, because, as it suggests, it has now become the standard. We are all buying into it, to our great detriment.

I don't know a woman in SL or RL who wants to change her shape to fit into a pair of jeans. Yet they are doing so in increasing numbers. From the many whom I have spoken of about this, however, they are not happy about it anymore than they are about not fitting into size ___ jeans in RL. Its just easier to adjust the sliders here.

• Just like in RL, there are conflicting sets of "standard" sizing out there. A few brilliant individuals decided that the original set of standards wasnt good enough, so they introduced their own standards. Now a plethora of standards exist, none of which solves the problem of mesh clothing not fitting you, all of them which allow the companies who introduce them to SELL YOU MESH CLOTHING.

• The alpha layer: Just make yourself invisible so you can wear, see and be seen in our clothing. I think this pretty much sums it up.

_____________________________________

Now, here is what the parametric deformer project was originally intended to do:

• Fit you, not make you fit it. Keep your shape, and your identity.

• Eliminate the need to do rigging and weight adjustment

• Prevent the need to do multiple sizes

• Prevent the need to create or use alpha layers underneath it.

Whether or not any or all of those goals are accomplished remains to be seen, but it CAN and DOES work that way in places like blue mars, WoW, Aeon, Guild Wars and a number of other game environments. It is actually somewhat common. 

I am sure that in saying all this that there will be some who agree and some who are very upset that I have done so. It is not intended to hurt anyone, but it is intended to try and look at the larger picture in regards to mesh clothing. I suggest that we consider our use of standard sizing. Be unique.

I think we all shold consider pushing harder to have the deformer established, and let LL know that we want this still. If we continue to adopt standard sizing as the means to solve the problem, they will be more than happy to let us provide it as the solution, rather than working with Karl to deveolop one which actually works.

I will be designing clothing, when the time comes, based on the standard SL avi.

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I'm waiting for automated scaling before I do much in the way of clothing. Meanwhile, I'm creating rigged avis and building parts that mostly don't sell. I'd love to make vehicles, but the scripting burden makes that a waste of time.

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Ashasekayi Ra wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

Having some early knowledge of the issue, I would have pushed LL to pay this issue the proper attention. Admitly, I was 1 of those people begging LL to just release mesh, as we waited for so long. I didn't quite anticipate how much creators and consumers would feel compelled to have mesh clothing, especially knowing the state that it was in. That said, If I were LL, I would have seen right away just how important the issue would become, and devoted a good amount of effort to make the deformer solution happen as quickly as possible. It does seem to me tho, that LL just has too many hoops to jump through to make anything happen quickly, lol.

I was one of the people that brought up this issue to the Lindens *a lot* during the beta program. There were a couple of other people that voiced concern about the scale issue as well. However, the Lindens didn't feel that mesh would be used for fashion that heavily. They were convinced it would only explode for rezzables and rigged avatars, not clothing. So, they were made aware in the early stages. They just didn't find it to be a priority at that time. 

 

Yep, I was there and I remember you bringing it up. At the time, I was waiting on mesh to release my newest large project. I understood that to fix the clothing issue would push the release date, for mesh, back months and months. Plus, considering how long it takes LL to push anything out, it didn't seem to be the smartest thing to wait on. When Qarl announced he was making the deformer, I thought this would be the best solution. LL should of made an announcement about this to clothing designers, and advised people to wait for the deformer, IMO.

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Are there any mesh meetings still happening?  Is there anyone who could ask for a statement from LL on this AND get a reply?  At this point it seems senseless to design mesh clothing yet there is a market for it.  LL makes money on marketplace sales, they should be concerned.

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