Skilled Gaming Policy - Q & A (RECAP)

[Senobia Xenga]

Yes. I do realize there is an "official" thread on the same topic. I also realize that thread is pushing 40 pages in length. With all the back and forth and commentary and the WTFs, honestly - I just can't keep up with the actual Qs and As. I figured there were other people with the same dilemma. So, I thought having a short version of the Q & A thread would help people easily find the FACTUAL information that has been determined thus far, as per the official thread.

Maybe we can post our questions here in one handy location and someone who is more versed in the Skilled Gaming Policy can answer them for us, making the answers easier to find without all the discussion.

My questions are:

1. Are club contest boards (Best In _________) with no entry fee subject to the new policy, meaning the club owners have to comply with the policy in order to continue to hold such events?

2. Same question in regards to club Sploders that you DO have to pay into to enter.

3. Same question in regards to 7 Seas Fishing.

4. Same question in regards to table games you might have at your house (Greedy, SLopoly, Hold 'Em, etc.) for personal use.

 

I hope others will ask their questions, too. Thank you all in advance.

[Sassy Romano]

Information already succinctly provided in the policy.  Either ask yourself whether the games you mentioned fit into the definition of a skill game or not, if this is not clear, seek legal advice:-

“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law.

I've highlighted the important part, ask yourself whether the games you mentioned 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars

People shouldn't be giving anecdotal advice, this is right up there in lawyer land really, it's a massive CYA exercise so taking anecdotal advice is ill advised if you're not able to understand the policy yourself.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, just be blunt about where in legal land this lies.

[Parrish Ashbourne]

LL looks to be only answering in the thread they started on this, I agree it's getting to be a mess, some of your question have all ready been answered by LL over there. 

From my under standing of it, if there is no pay in or option for pay in then the policy dose not apply.  A good example of this is Linden realms, some where in that other post LL had commend on Linden Realms saying just that.

7 Seas by it's self should be fine, but if you have a contest board for it that pays out.  That's a good question I don't know the answer too that.

I don't think personal use has any thing to do with it, it's all about if there's a pay in with a pay out or not.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

As to Greedy, the maker, K.R. Engineering, has explained on his Facebook page that, before the end of the month, people will be able to update their Greedy tables to be given a free-to-play version with no cash payout, so they can play for the fun of it without worries.

SLopoly I don't know.  

If Hold 'Em is one of the two Texas Hold 'Em games I know about, I don't think either of them have a pay to play option or permit cash pay-outs.  They certainly shouldn't, since LL have banned poker games for cash since 2007, whatever the degree of skill involved.   If you can't play them for cash, they're not affected.   If you can, they're already against TOS.

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Senobia Xenga wrote:

Yes. I do realize there is an "official" thread on the same topic. I also realize that thread is pushing 40 pages in length. With all the back and forth and commentary and the WTFs, honestly - I just can't keep up with the actual Qs and As.

---

In other words, you're just too lazy to read through the whole thread... you're not alone.

Let me save you the effort... it seems as though any official answer in that thread is not really an answer, but merely an invitation to re-peruse the documentation which had already been provided by LL, however inadequate.  If you can't understand what they mean, you've no choice but to consult a lawyer who would then have to provide you with substantive legal advice, which would be subject to scrutiny by LL and, presumably, their own legal counsel.  They're being intentionally vague and you should not expect more from them than exactly that.

In other words, should you need specific answers to specific questions, consulting your own personal lawyer is your only alternative.  LL will not provide you with legal advice concerning their own platform, even though they must be fully aware of what you can do and not from a legal standpoint.  All they care about is covering their own asses.

...Dres

[Senobia Xenga]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Senobia Xenga wrote:

Yes. I do realize there is an "official" thread on the same topic. I also realize that thread is pushing 40 pages in length. With all the back and forth and commentary and the WTFs, honestly - I just can't keep up with the actual Qs and As.

---

In other words, you're just too lazy to read through the whole thread... you're not alone.

---

Actually, no. In other words, I did read the whole thread, but all the incessant bitching and moaning from people on that thread did nothing, but detract from the conversation at hand, infuse way too much 'hear say' or 'as I understand it' and confuse people even more. 

 

This post wasn't about whether or not I read the thread in its entirety - I did. This post was (supposed to be) about clarity and brevity because it seems that we are SOL when it comes to finding either, as they apply to this topic.

[SirJayBeeThespian]

You've got my thumbs up.  

Panic is also the word of the day here.  I've seen one message from a group in my e-mail that caused me to look at this.  

To be perfectly honest, though, the online virtual worlds are a new territory for the legal system.  Since virtual worlds involve real people on the other end, we all must be adhering to what is constitutional and just.  

Some users would be content to having the rules be eliminated here.  And if you do that, anarchy ensues and that presents a clear and present danger.  

Some rules are OK, and others are a bit arcane because many of us know better.  

[Amethyst Jetaime]

It's pretty simple

1. I you have to pay to play and chance plays a large part in if you win L's or tokens or something you can trade for L's, its gambling and not allowed anywhere.
2. I you have to pay to play or that is an option and skill is what determines if you win and you win L's or tokens or something you can trade for L's, its a skill game and only allowed on a designated gaming sim.  Further the game itself, the creator of the game and the owner of it all have to be licensed by LL.  The estate owner of a gaming sim is responsible for making sure that all games on it and the owners are properly licensed.
3. If there is no way for you to pay to play then it's neither and allowed anywhere.

 

Unless the games are in category 3, if you own games you must obtain a license to operate them, you must replace them with fully licensed games and you must move your business to a gaming sim.

 

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

---

Senobia Xenga wrote:

Yes. I do realize there is an "official" thread on the same topic. I also realize that thread is pushing 40 pages in length. With all the back and forth and commentary and the WTFs, honestly - I just can't keep up with the actual Qs and As. I figured there were other people with the same dilemma. So, I thought having a short version of the Q & A thread would help people easily find the FACTUAL information that has been determined thus far, as per the official thread.

Maybe we can post our questions here in one handy location and someone who is more versed in the Skilled Gaming Policy can answer them for us, making the answers easier to find without all the discussion.

My questions are:

1. Are club contest boards (Best In _________) with no entry fee subject to the new policy, meaning the club owners have to comply with the policy in order to continue to hold such events?

No, because it's not gambling/gaming if a player does not pay in.

2. Same question in regards to club Sploders that you DO have to pay into to enter.

Yes, because paying in and receiving cash prizes is gambling/gaming.

3. Same question in regards to 7 Seas Fishing.

4. Same question in regards to table games you might have at your house (Greedy, SLopoly, Hold 'Em, etc.) for personal use.

Greedy Grredy, as it is right now, will be subject to the new rules, but the owner is producing a free update that won't pay out, so that one will not be subject to the new rules.

 

I hope others will ask their questions, too. Thank you all in advance.

---

For something to be subject to the new rules, it must be gambling/gaming; i.e. pay in and pay out. Gambling is ok, but must be licensed. Skill games will get licenses. Games that have too much chance in them won't; e.g. Greedy Greedy is mostly chance because rolling dice is pure chance.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Senobia Xenga wrote:

Actually, no. In other words, I

did

read the whole thread, but all the incessant bitching and moaning from people on that thread did nothing, but detract from the conversation at hand, infuse way too much 'hear say' or 'as I understand it' and confuse people even more. 

---

I agree. That thread is mostly in the way of users answering questions, sometimes correctly and sometimes not, plus small discussions, opinions, and requests for futher clarifications. I've been a part of it too. It's very long and it's hard to find what you're looking for any more. But it had to go that way because, if someone asks LL a question that they have already answered, people will post the answers, ask for further clarification, etc. Many of the questions don't need asking because the answers are already given in the pages at the other ends of the links that LL posts. For instance, plenty of people asked about the Greedy Greedy game. I was the first, and I got the answer from LL, BUT, unless one particular page was updated since I asked, the answer was already given in the pages at the other end of one of the links and I needn't have asked. We do tend to ask first and read later, and fill the thread to bursting.

This thread is already getting bloated in the same way, including by this post.

[Coby Foden]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

For something to be subject to the new rules, it must be gambling/gaming; i.e. pay in

and

pay out. Gambling is ok, but must be licensed. Skill games will get licenses. Games that have too much chance in them won't; e.g. Greedy Greedy is mostly chance because rolling dice is pure chance.

---

Isn't that a bit confusing what you say Phil? In effect first you are saying that gambling is allowed, and then then you say that gambling is not allowed.

To clarify my point:

1. Linden Lab Official - Second Life Skill Gaming Approved Participants

"Gambling is strictly prohibited in Second Life and operating, or participating in, a game of chance that provides a Linden Dollar payout is a violation of our Terms of Service."

 

2. What is Gambling?

"A person is gambling whenever he or she takes the chance of losing money or belongings, and when winning or losing is decided mostly by chance."

You say that gambling is ok but must be licensed.

My understanding is that gambling activities cannot be licensed in SL at all.

 

PS.

What comes to sploders (pay in and pay out types):

The Skilled Gaming policy does not apply to them because sploders are based purely on chance.

Sploders are gambling activity, gambling is prohibited; thus sploders are prohibited.

 

[Phil Deakins]

I didn't say that gambling isn't allowed. It's allowed if it's almost all down the skill, but not allowed if too big a part of it is down to chance - like rolling dice in Greedy Greedy.

Gambling can be licensed in SL. If I bet on myself to win something skillful, I'm taking a gamble because I might not win. The #2 in your post states, "... and when winning or losing is decided mostly by chance." That's how LL describes gambling, so maybe we need another word for paying to play a skillful game and trying to win money. Because that's what's allowed if licensed. LL calls in Skill Gaming, but gaming in this context means gambling.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I didn't say that gambling isn't allowed. It's allowed if it's almost all down the skill, but not allowed if too big a part of it is down to chance - like rolling dice in Greedy Greedy.

Gambling can be licensed in SL. If I bet on myself to win something skillful, I'm taking a gamble because I might not win. The #2 in your post states, "...

and when winning or losing is decided mostly by chance

." That's how LL describes it, so maybe we need another word for paying to play a skillful game and trying to win money. Because that's what's allowed if licensed. LL calls in Skill Gaming, but gaming in this context means gambling.

 

---

I think this is where the legal opinion might become important.   I'd want to differentiate between the skill involved in (for example) playing games of pure, or almost pure, skill like chess, darts or pool, and the skill involved in betting on who's going to win a particular game.

The skills involved in breeding, training or riding a Grand National winner are not necessarily the same as the skills involved in picking one.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Senobia Xenga wrote:

Yes. I do realize there is an "official" thread on the same topic. I also realize that thread is pushing 40 pages in length. With all the back and forth and commentary and the WTFs, honestly - I just can't keep up with the actual Qs and As.

---

In other words, you're just too lazy to read through the whole thread... you're not alone.

Let me save you the effort... it seems as though any official answer in that thread is not really an answer, but merely an invitation to re-peruse the documentation which had already been provided by LL, however inadequate. 

If you can't understand what they mean, you've no choice but to consult a lawyer who would then have to provide you with substantive legal advice, which would be subject to scrutiny by LL and, presumably, their own legal counsel.  They're being intentionally vague and you should not expect more from them than exactly that.

In other words, should you need specific answers to specific questions, consulting your own personal lawyer is your only alternative.  LL will not provide you with legal advice concerning their own platform, even though they must be fully aware of what you can do and not from a legal standpoint.  All they care about is covering their own asses.

...Dres

---

I think the linking back to the FAQ is a good thing.  When LL has done it, the link has been to the specific section.

If someone thinks it really affects them they really do need to take the time out to read the FAQ.

 

While it may be a lot of material to absorb, a lot of questions really are answered in the FAQ.

This is a subject, because of the legal ramifications, it would be wrong for people to expect LL to spoon feed them on.

[Coby Foden]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I didn't say that gambling isn't allowed. It's allowed if it's

almost all down the skill

, but not allowed if too big a part of it is down to chance - like rolling dice in Greedy Greedy.

Gambling can be licensed in SL. If I bet on myself to win something skillful, I'm taking a gamble because I might not win. The #2 in your post states, "...

and when winning or losing is decided mostly by chance

." That's how LL describes gambling, so maybe we need another word for paying to play a skillful game and trying to win money. Because that's what's allowed if licensed. LL calls in Skill Gaming, but gaming in this context means gambling.

 

---

You are just twisting definitions Phil :smileyindifferent:

If some activity is "almost all down to the skill" then by definition that is not gambling in Second Life.

Gambling

:

"...The #2 in your post states, "... and when winning or losing is decided mostly by chance." That's how LL describes gambling,"

Linden Lab definitely states that gambling is not allowed in SL. What you said is: "Gambling is ok, but must be licensed."  Well, gambling cannot be licensed in SL. So in effect you did say that gambling isn't allowed in SL after all.

 

[Senobia Xenga]

Something that just came to mind is the enforcement issue. Does this new policy mean LL is going to be more active/visible in world to crack down on violations? Or is there going to be some forced upgrade to the whole infrastructure to not allow rez'g of any of this stuff by anyone who is not 'part of the compliance system'?

[Senobia Xenga]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

Information already succinctly provided in the policy.  Either ask yourself whether the games you mentioned fit into the definition of a skill game or not, if this is not clear, seek legal advice:-

“Skill Game”

or

“Skill Gaming”

shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object:

1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars

; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law.

I've highlighted the important part, ask yourself whether the games you mentioned

2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars

People shouldn't be giving anecdotal advice, this is right up there in lawyer land really, it's a massive CYA exercise so taking anecdotal advice is ill advised if you're not able to understand the policy yourself.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, just be blunt about where in legal land this lies.

---

I really don't care about the Sploders, contests, etc., but I DO like 7 Seas. The 7 Seas system doesn't pay out money, except when contests are held, but it does require an investment of at least bait and I think you can only use the 'free' rod for so long until it becomes useless - which means you eventually do have to buy one. Essentially, it's a 'game' we're paying into to play, even if it's not an entry fee or wager of a bet. 

 

Although your catches do get better as your experience level increases, it still amounts to chance because you cast, wait, then reel in whatever the server gives you (or doesn't) - by chance.

 

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Senobia Xenga wrote:

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

Information already succinctly provided in the policy.  Either ask yourself whether the games you mentioned fit into the definition of a skill game or not, if this is not clear, seek legal advice:-

“Skill Game”

or

“Skill Gaming”

shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object:

1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars

; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law.

I've highlighted the important part, ask yourself whether the games you mentioned

2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars

People shouldn't be giving anecdotal advice, this is right up there in lawyer land really, it's a massive CYA exercise so taking anecdotal advice is ill advised if you're not able to understand the policy yourself.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, just be blunt about where in legal land this lies.

---

I really don't care about the Sploders, contests, etc., but I DO like 7 Seas. The 7 Seas system doesn't pay out money, except when contests are held, but it does require an investment of at least bait and I think you can only use the 'free' rod for so long until it becomes useless - which means you eventually do have to buy one. Essentially, it's a 'game' we're paying into to play, even if it's not an entry fee or wager of a bet. 

 

Although your catches do get better as your experience level increases, it still amounts to chance because you cast, wait, then reel in whatever the server gives you (or doesn't) - by chance.

 

 

 

---

Are you asking this as someone who enjoys playing 7 Seas or as someone who operates a 7 Seas system?  

If you're an operator, I think you should be talking to whoever makes 7 Seas, at least to find out if they're applying for approval and what their legal advisors say.  

If you simply enjoy playing it, then I guess all you can do is wait until August 1st and see what happens.

 

[Phil Deakins]

---

Coby Foden wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I didn't say that gambling isn't allowed. It's allowed if it's

almost all down the skill

, but not allowed if too big a part of it is down to chance - like rolling dice in Greedy Greedy.

Gambling can be licensed in SL. If I bet on myself to win something skillful, I'm taking a gamble because I might not win. The #2 in your post states, "...

and when winning or losing is decided mostly by chance

." That's how LL describes gambling, so maybe we need another word for paying to play a skillful game and trying to win money. Because that's what's allowed if licensed. LL calls in Skill Gaming, but gaming in this context means gambling.

 

---

You are just twisting definitions Phil :smileyindifferent:

If some activity is "

almost all down to the skill

" then by definition that is not gambling in Second Life.

Gambling

:

"...The #2 in your post states, "... and when winning or losing is decided

mostly by chance

." That's how LL describes gambling,"

Linden Lab definitely states that gambling is not allowed in SL. What you said is: "

Gambling is ok, but must be licensed.

"  Well, gambling cannot be licensed in SL. So in effect you did say that gambling isn't allowed in SL after all.

 

---

No Coby. Gambling IS allowed in SL. As long as the gambling game is skill. For instance, putting money into a pot and playing a skill-based game against other players, where the winner takes the pot, is gambling - betting on yourself to win - and that is very definitely allowed now.

However LL describes things, what I described above is gambling - betting or yourself to beat the other players and win money. And that is allowed.

The word 'gaming' in this context means gambling. The word is used by all the online gamblings sites. They call themselves online gaming sites. In this context gaming means gambling, and LL allows skilled gaming. So gaming/gambling is allowed provided it meats the skill criteria.

[Coby Foden]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

No Coby. Gambling IS allowed in SL. As long as the gambling game is skill.

---

 Lab_Official - Second_Life_Skill_Gaming

"Gambling is strictly prohibited in Second Life and operating, or participating in, a game of chance that provides a Linden Dollar payout is a violation of our Terms of Service. However, games of skill are legally permitted in many jurisdictions, and Second Life’s Skill Gaming Policy establishes that skill games offering Linden Dollar payouts will be allowed, but each game, its creator, its operator, and the region on which it is operated must be approved by Linden Lab."

 

Isn't it clear from the above that:

• Games of change (pay in/pay out) are considered as gambling in SL.

• Approved skill games (pay in/pay out) are not considered as gambling in SL.

Why do you need to bring any other definitions about gambling in this context?

[Innula Zenovka]

Phil, are you distinguishing between "pay-to-play" with the winner taking a proportion of the entry fees (in effect, at least in your analysis, betting on yourself) and a separate contest whereby interested observers may bet on whether they think you or one of the other contestants will win?   If so, does it matter if the odds in the separate contest are set so that, after paying on all the winning bets, the house comes out ahead no matter who wins? 

I can see why LL would want a lawyer's advice to sort that one out, myself.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Senobia Xenga wrote:

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

Information already succinctly provided in the policy.  Either ask yourself whether the games you mentioned fit into the definition of a skill game or not, if this is not clear, seek legal advice:-

“Skill Game”

or

“Skill Gaming”

shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object:

1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars

; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law.

I've highlighted the important part, ask yourself whether the games you mentioned

2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars

People shouldn't be giving anecdotal advice, this is right up there in lawyer land really, it's a massive CYA exercise so taking anecdotal advice is ill advised if you're not able to understand the policy yourself.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, just be blunt about where in legal land this lies.

---

I really don't care about the Sploders, contests, etc., but I DO like 7 Seas. The 7 Seas system doesn't pay out money, except when contests are held, but it does require an investment of at least bait and I think you can only use the 'free' rod for so long until it becomes useless - which means you eventually do have to buy one. Essentially, it's a 'game' we're paying into to play, even if it's not an entry fee or wager of a bet. 

 

Although your catches do get better as your experience level increases, it still amounts to chance because you cast, wait, then reel in whatever the server gives you (or doesn't) - by chance.

 

 

 

---

7 Seas isn't gambling. You pay for a fishing rod and bait. You are not paying to play, you are buying something in SL. It's akin to buying a race car to drive in a race. What you buy is tangible, within the confines of SL. You actually get something, not an entry fee. If you had to pay to enter the fishing derby, that would be gambling.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Coby Foden wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I didn't say that gambling isn't allowed. It's allowed if it's

almost all down the skill

, but not allowed if too big a part of it is down to chance - like rolling dice in Greedy Greedy.

Gambling can be licensed in SL. If I bet on myself to win something skillful, I'm taking a gamble because I might not win. The #2 in your post states, "...

and when winning or losing is decided mostly by chance

." That's how LL describes gambling, so maybe we need another word for paying to play a skillful game and trying to win money. Because that's what's allowed if licensed. LL calls in Skill Gaming, but gaming in this context means gambling.

 

---

You are just twisting definitions Phil :smileyindifferent:

If some activity is "

almost all down to the skill

" then by definition that is not gambling in Second Life.

Gambling

:

"...The #2 in your post states, "... and when winning or losing is decided

mostly by chance

." That's how LL describes gambling,"

Linden Lab definitely states that gambling is not allowed in SL. What you said is: "

Gambling is ok, but must be licensed.

"  Well, gambling cannot be licensed in SL. So in effect you did say that gambling isn't allowed in SL after all.

 

---

No Coby. Gambling IS allowed in SL. As long as the gambling game is skill. For instance, putting money into a pot and playing a skill-based game against other players, where the winner takes the pot, is gambling - betting on yourself to win - and that is very definitely allowed now.

However LL describes things, what I described above is gambling - betting or yourself to beat the other players and win money. And that is allowed.

The word 'gaming' in this context means gambling. The word is used by all the online gamblings sites. They call themselves online gaming sites. In this context gaming means gambling, and LL allows skilled gaming. So gaming/gambling is allowed provided it meats the skill criteria.

---

Gambling is strictly prohibited in SL.

Games of skill are allowed.

They made the distinction, you are confusing people.

[Qie Niangao]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

7 Seas isn't gambling. You pay for a fishing rod and bait. You are not paying to play, you are buying something in SL.

It's akin to buying a race car to drive in a race. What you buy is tangible, within the confines of SL. You actually get something, not an entry fee. If you had to pay to enter the fishing derby, that would be gambling.

---

I don't think that distinction actually works. To be honest, I hadn't thought of 7Seas at all when the policy was announced, but in areas that pay out L$s for "fishing contests", those L$1 rods are a problem here because there is no way to play for free, and the objects themselves are quite obviously not sold as mechandise for any other reason than to permit playing the fishing game.

All this lawyer hocus-pocus notwithstanding, LL will still have to make decisions about what they consider skill-gaming and therefore subject to the new policy. So it in fact doesn't really matter what we think about this, nor even what it says in the policy -- it's all up to whatever the Lab wants or thinks it can get away with.

They may choose to see L$1 fishing rods as "merchandise" instead of "game tokens" even when there's a L$-payout contest, but that's really up to them and what they think they can pull over on the Feds.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Coby Foden wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

No Coby. Gambling IS allowed in SL. As long as the gambling game is skill.

---

 

Lab_Official - Second_Life_Skill_Gaming

"

Gambling is strictly prohibited

in Second Life and operating, or participating in,

a game of chance

that provides a Linden Dollar payout is a violation of our Terms of Service. However, games of skill are legally permitted in many jurisdictions, and Second Life’s Skill Gaming Policy establishes that

skill games offering Linden Dollar payouts will be allowed

, but each game, its creator, its operator, and the region on which it is operated must be approved by Linden Lab."

 

Isn't it clear from the above that:

• Games of change (pay in/pay out) are considered as gambling in SL.

• Approved skill games (pay in/pay out) are not considered as gambling in SL.

Why do you need to bring any other definitions about gambling in this context?

---

Yes it's clear from that, but LL used the word 'gaming' which, in this context actually means gambling. Why does it matter to you, Coby?

You do realise that, when this difference of opinion is over, I will want a long cuddle from you to make up. You do know that, don't you?