Caroline Takeda Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 From Siemens Media in Second Life to all our readers:Just to make clear where we stand:Freedom of Speech is not negotiable! Our sincere condolences to the families and friends of the victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Scroll a little bit down... http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/We-are-Charlie/td-p/2883033 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Alcott Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 yes... freedom of speech, but your freedom ends where it damages mine, freedom doesn't mean you can say everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Alwin Alcott wrote: freedom doesn't mean you can say everything. Actually that's exactly what it means. Making the personal choice not to believe in something doesn't change the definition for everybody else. -- Free•dom n. The condition of being free of restraints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Alwin Alcott wrote: yes... freedom of speech, but your freedom ends where it damages mine, freedom doesn't mean you can say everything. Thats not correct and incredible unsensitive. Do you think they deserved to be shoot for drawing a cartoon? A proper democracy is supposed to give everyone the safety to express their oppinion and criticize. No, it does not matter if you do not want to be criticized or if you don't like other peoples opinions. Your freedom isn't damaged by the words of others. Your freedom to follow a certain religion isn't damaged by the cartoon or joke someone makes about it. If nothing is allowed to be published out of the fear someone might be offended, then nothing can be published....not even a cooking reciepe for turkey, as this might offend some vegetarians. YES you can say everything. I can say my opinion and you can say you don't like it. Thats the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Syo Emerald wrote: Your freedom isn't damaged by the words of others. This is absolutely true. Individual freedom can only be increased by the unapologetic and flagrant use of parody/satire. For that is how it works. Cowardice, ostracization and siding with ideological persecutors categorically does not help maintain freedom. Shame on those who would use this tragedy to encourage such nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirbaz Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Shame on those who mock others religious figures through these drawings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Freedom of Speech is not an absolute. It is in no one's interests to allow libels, slanders or people to shout "fire" in crowded cinemas. Making that point is not a defence of terrorists Anyone thinking that is extremely wrong headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Je suis Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I disagree. Nothing I have seen from the French satirists amounts to anything I would consider to have gone too far. Religious "satire" is only indefensible when it is of the same sort of untruth and malicious intent as the blood libels unfortunately too frequent in the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirbaz Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 What else to expect from peopele, who have no qulams about mocking their own prophet, are you even Christian? if so then shame on you for your hypocricy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Alcott Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Syo Emerald wrote Thats not correct and incredible unsensitive. Do you think they deserved to be shoot for drawing a cartoon? Assuming things like you do now is your projecting on the case, and i'm not unsensitive, i only refuse to howl with the crowd, it's a disaster for the people involved, but in a few days we will wake up in the morning and just go as we always did. Call me unsesitive but i bet you'r not different. In a week you also will eat your chips or pizza and laugh with your friends as two days ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Alcott Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 And i DON'T defend or agree with terroristic violence in any form Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Aethelwine wrote: Nothing I have seen from the French satirists amounts to anything I would consider to have gone too far. I've seen a few jokes I wouldn't laugh at myself (for one, my understanding of the French language isn't as good as it once was), but mostly I think subjective judgements on the work itself aren't very important. We all have our senses of humour and our triggers for feeling offended. The trick is in how our feelings are made manifest. Turning a violent action rooted in ignorance and hatred into a discussion of mythology vs. mythology and bickering over whether concepts have feelings seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, but if comments that I'd dismiss have value to others then that's... kind of the point, in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Alwin Alcott wrote: Syo Emerald wrote Thats not correct and incredible unsensitive. Do you think they deserved to be shoot for drawing a cartoon? Assuming things like you do now is your projecting on the case, and i'm not unsensitive, i only refuse to howl with the crowd, it's a disaster for the people involved, but in a few days we will wake up in the morning and just go as we always did. Call me unsesitive but i bet you'r not different. In a week you also will eat your chips or pizza and laugh with your friends as two days ago. Apples and oranges. I understand the concept of being free to express opinions, you obviously don't and talk as if the people who died in this attack sort of "asked for trouble", because some things shouldn't be said/published. And yes, I think its not really sensitive in any case to place any degree of blame on the victim for what happened. In fact I do think (according to statements made in the past) that the magazine was prepared for reactions (because freedom goes both ways). They just weren't prepared for a criminal response. Comparing that to the impact this terrorist attack has on my personal daily life is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 mirbaz wrote: What else to expect from peopele, who have no qulams about mocking their own prophet, are you even Christian? if so then shame on you for your hypocricy. I can honestly say, I'm not a hypocrite. I enjoy every from of satire made about religion (no matter which). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonR Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 What everyone shouting about free speech never mentions is that with the RIGHT of free speech comes the CONSEQUENCES of your words. This was the direct consequence of what 3 extremists thought was an attack on their beliefs. Do I think the illustrators deserved what happened? No. Do I think they might have anticipated this kind of reaction in this day and age, and in light of the fact that the paper was firebombed in the past? Of course they should have, and taken proper measures to insure the staff's safety in light of the inflamatory pieces they publish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valerie Inshan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Being French and living in Paris, may I intervene in this thread to clarify that the events that happen here since 3 days now go away beyond the controversy about the cartoons that have earned their authors an abject death that nothing can justify. Since yesterday, the accomplices of those who committed the massacre of Charlie Hebdo now attack anonymous citizens, taken at random targets, and members of the police force. At the time I am writing this, two hostages-takings are underway simultaneously. Police officers were killed and wounded yesterday. At least two people have just been slaughtered in a kosher grocery store, and it is unknown how many other people are held hostages and may be killed at any time. In light of the sad events that are happening right now, it appears that the attack against Charlie Hebdo was unfortunately only the first step in a larger plan, even darker than what we expected. It is indeed a terrorist attack carried out against western values, against the French Republic and now also sadly against the Jewish community. As to the question of freedom of expression, I consider that it should not have limits other than those of intelligence and common sense, two qualities that journalists of Charlie Hebdo had more than most of their colleagues working in other so-called "politically correct"newspapers. And, yes they were very well aware of the possible consequences, some of them were under the police protection. It's just nobody could imagine that this could happen on such a scale. Should we censor ourselves for fear of offending a few fanatics, ignorant criminals? I do not think so. To do so would be bending to their madness, give them reason, let them think they own the truth. Well, they don't. ETA: I am Christian. Will a cartoon about Jesus or Virgin Mary will weaken my faith? No. Will i go cut the throats of those who denigrate my religion? Certainly not. This is a battle between democracy and obscurantism that is in question here. Personally, I have chosen my "side of the force." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardvinna Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 RonR wrote: What everyone shouting about free speech never mentions is that with the RIGHT of free speech comes the CONSEQUENCES of your words. This was the direct consequence of what 3 extremists thought was an attack on their beliefs. Do I think the illustrators deserved what happened? No. Do I think they might have anticipated this kind of reaction in this day and age, and in light of the fact that the paper was firebombed in the past? Of course they should have, and taken proper measures to insure the staff's safety in light of the inflamatory pieces they publish. You're right in a democratic country every citizen has to be responsible for his actions and his speech, and to bear the consequences for them [besides children, mentally deranged persons, and politicians]. The Consequences of the "misuse" of free speech is not being killed, at least not in democratic countries. No one in a democratic country should fear death for telling his opinion, thoughts, or feelings. For instance: If I insult you or your religious feelings, you can go and denounce me, but you can't come to my home and kill me. But the editors of Charlie Hebdo knew what they did, and I think we all have to advocate and to stand for the right of free speech, Otherwise the democracy itself is in danger, and then we can all move to North Korea and live there. Let me quote the chief editor of the Charlie Hebdo: "Je préfère mourir debout que vivre à genoux." (It's better to die standing up than to spend your life on your knees.) And an attack to someone's belief never, really never justifies a mass murder. The Satire and the humour is older then any religion in the world. It is what makes us human - to laugh and to smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valerie Inshan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Ardvinna wrote: But the editors of Charlie Hebdo knew what they did, and I think we all have to advocate and to stand for the right of free speech, Otherwise the democracy itself is in danger, and then we can all move to North Korea and live there. Let me quote the chief editor of the Charlie Hebdo: "Je préfère mourir debout que vivre à genoux." (It's better to die standing up than to spend your life on your knees.)And an attack to someone's belief never, really never justifies a mass murder. The Satire and the humour is older then any religion in the world. It is what makes us human - to laugh and to smile. *searches for the Kudos button* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 RonR wrote: What everyone shouting about free speech never mentions is that with the RIGHT of free speech comes the CONSEQUENCES of your words. This was the direct consequence of what 3 extremists thought was an attack on their beliefs. Do I think the illustrators deserved what happened? No. Do I think they might have anticipated this kind of reaction in this day and age, and in light of the fact that the paper was firebombed in the past? Of course they should have, and taken proper measures to insure the staff's safety in light of the inflamatory pieces they publish. As it has been reported here in the UK, the terrorists gained entry to the building by ambushing one of the magazine's employees as she arrived at work with her young child and threatening to murder her child if she didn't let them into the building using her security code. Could you maybe outline some of the "proper measures" you say the magazine should have taken but neglected to take to protect its staff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kika Grantham Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The endgame is underway in France. Explosions and gunshots heard at both locations - let us all hope that the hostages and police are safe......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Alcott Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Syo Emerald wrote: Alwin Alcott wrote: Syo Emerald wrote Thats not correct and incredible unsensitive. Do you think they deserved to be shoot for drawing a cartoon? Assuming things like you do now is your projecting on the case, and i'm not unsensitive, i only refuse to howl with the crowd, it's a disaster for the people involved, but in a few days we will wake up in the morning and just go as we always did. Call me unsesitive but i bet you'r not different. In a week you also will eat your chips or pizza and laugh with your friends as two days ago. Apples and oranges. I understand the concept of being free to express opinions, you obviously don't and talk as if the people who died in this attack sort of "asked for trouble", because some things shouldn't be said/published. And yes, I think its not really sensitive in any case to place any degree of blame on the victim for what happened. In fact I do think (according to statements made in the past) that the magazine was prepared for reactions (because freedom goes both ways). They just weren't prepared for a criminal response. Comparing that to the impact this terrorist attack has on my personal daily life is silly. example of projection, nothing from what you write i said or intended, you understand nothing except your own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valerie Inshan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Kika Grantham wrote: The endgame is underway in France. Explosions and gunshots heard at both locations - let us all hope that the hostages and police are safe......... Yes, game over. The criminals have been shot by the elite forces and the hostages and police are safe. Let's just hope it won't happen again... at least too soon. Because, let's face it, it, this was not the last of this kind of actions. But for now, for the first time since 3 days, we can take a deep breath and relax a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valerie Inshan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Update: "Vincennes: four hostages killed : Four hostages died in the events of the Porte de Vincennes according to a police source. Two policemen were injured and the premises of the grocery store where the tragedy took place were trapped." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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